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Patch Notes 25/01/2020

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Marawo
Posts: 102

Re: Patch Notes 25/01/2020

Post#41 » Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:19 pm

wargrimnir wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:12 pm
Hat wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:24 pm
Detangler wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 12:27 am
Is the oil damage doing 3k a hit intentional? Cause I'm sure a select few order players are running out of spare pants from creaming themselves every keep defense over this change...
Yep, 3000 damage (0 mitigation) on my tanks to oil yesterday.
Oil was not intended to be mitigated. This was fixed in a recent patch. Kill the oil first.
I want to take this opportunity to bring up the bad LOS some oils give.
Oil is a huge kettle it shouldn't be out of LOS when players next to it are hittable.
I can completely understand the "somekeeps harder some keeps easier" intend, but in this case it's a technical issue.
Link to the topic explaining the issue + pictures yeah
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Ototo
Posts: 1015

Re: Patch Notes 25/01/2020

Post#42 » Tue Jan 28, 2020 3:53 pm

Marawo wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:19 pm
wargrimnir wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:12 pm
Hat wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:24 pm


Yep, 3000 damage (0 mitigation) on my tanks to oil yesterday.
Oil was not intended to be mitigated. This was fixed in a recent patch. Kill the oil first.
I want to take this opportunity to bring up the bad LOS some oils give.
Oil is a huge kettle it shouldn't be out of LOS when players next to it are hittable.
I can completely understand the "somekeeps harder some keeps easier" intend, but in this case it's a technical issue.
Link to the topic explaining the issue + pictures yeah
Took some screenshots yesterday of this same oil that you name in your thread. Southern Garrison is one of the most annoying keeps to attack just cause of this issue. Was about to fill a bug report, then I remembered that I had commented in one. The issue is an occurrence in every keep that has a ramp in front of the main gate and the oil location.
Spoiler:

engharat
Posts: 17

Re: Patch Notes 25/01/2020

Post#43 » Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:46 am

wargrimnir wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:07 pm
engharat wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 11:53 pm
While highly appreciating all the hard work done by the staff, the question naturally rises in my mind: why buffing the strongest melee dps class and not buffing SW/SH archer skills, which are blatantly underperforming?
Devs don't work on things based off leading questions raised after the fact by community members. We certainly don't work on one class with any regard to any other class unless it has highly relevant reasons to do so. We also work on things because we enjoy it, have been intrigued by something, find an interesting angle to tweak something, or just feel a responsibility at some random moment to address it.

If you have detailed and specific improvements you would like to see for ranged sq/sw post them on the balance forum. If they're worth using right away they might get implemented, if they're worth discussing they might get moved to the discussion section. If they're worthless they'll probably just sit there.
Sorry but I think your logic is flawed. If I would say "why don't you work on improving Land of the death zone?" and you would reply "because I and my colleagues are more interested in improving forts", I would totally understand your position. But when speaking about class balance via tweaking numbers, I don't see any sound logic in the reasoning "I wanna improve WL skills because I like that".
There is a reply of a Dev(don't remember if you or another one) in spring 2019 about underperforming ranged SW,the reply said "we know that ranged SW is underperforming and it will not stay like that forever". Well, the most logical thing to do would be to fix the blatantly underperforming classes before touching the most performant ones.

I will not do any proposal on the forum because ithere are much more experienced ranged SW then me that are more qualified than me to make good proposal. However, a simple number tweaking like the one done on this patch on WL would greatly help SW situation without requiring an huge amount of work.

If I can make a suggestion, If I were you I would create a group of very very skilled players which do a bunch of tests and analysis for balancing classes, while leaving you developers free to work to whatever you like the most. Every suggestion of this player balancing team would be tried for 15 days to understand the impact of the changes on big numbers, before approving them as stable change.
The general things that this team should address would be:
1)every class should have at least one tree warband-friendly. RvR is too much important in this game to have classes good on solo/6vs6 only.
2)every class should never greatly outperform the corresponding mirror class. SW should not be way weaker than squig herder. Marauder dps should not be way weaker than white lion+lion dps. Slayer mdps capability should not be way stronger than choppa counterpart.most of those unbalanced could be solved by simple tweak of numbers, few of them requires a deeper change. The obviously the 15 days testing would be needed to understand the change behavior, looking also at sinergies with other classes.
3)there should not be class too much difficult to play - I see at WH/WE currently state, where they do same damage of other mdps without having medium Armour.
All those things require clever proposal, proper analysis, and very experienced players. A dedicated team would leave you devs a lot of free time while solving one of the most evident server issues: class balancing.
Summing up:you can always do whatever you want in your server, no one discuss that. But if you wanna follow a logical path on what and how to make changes, I would split things in "interesting improvements to the Ror game play" and "balancing issues with a precise priority list and a precise methodology" instead of applying random fixes on non priority classes.
Last edited by engharat on Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Akilinus
Posts: 291

Re: Patch Notes 25/01/2020

Post#44 » Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:15 am

Acidic wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:34 am
Would there be any chance in armory to search in class so you could see rr leader board including those that don’t do SC
Would be nice
You already got your statues.
Never too late to start doing scenarios
Kkomrade 80 Zealot Akilinuz 75 Chosen
Mauzer 60 Kotbs Kkomrades 80 Black Guard
Rhodesia 60 SH

[Brotherman]

User avatar
Ototo
Posts: 1015

Re: Patch Notes 25/01/2020

Post#45 » Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:57 pm

engharat wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:46 am
Incredibly long post:
Spoiler:
wargrimnir wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:07 pm
engharat wrote:
Sun Jan 26, 2020 11:53 pm
While highly appreciating all the hard work done by the staff, the question naturally rises in my mind: why buffing the strongest melee dps class and not buffing SW/SH archer skills, which are blatantly underperforming?
Devs don't work on things based off leading questions raised after the fact by community members. We certainly don't work on one class with any regard to any other class unless it has highly relevant reasons to do so. We also work on things because we enjoy it, have been intrigued by something, find an interesting angle to tweak something, or just feel a responsibility at some random moment to address it.

If you have detailed and specific improvements you would like to see for ranged sq/sw post them on the balance forum. If they're worth using right away they might get implemented, if they're worth discussing they might get moved to the discussion section. If they're worthless they'll probably just sit there.
Sorry but I think your logic is flawed. If I would say "why don't you work on improving Land of the death zone?" and you would reply "because I and my colleagues are more interested in improving forts", I would totally understand your position. But when speaking about class balance via tweaking numbers, I don't see any sound logic in the reasoning "I wanna improve WL skills because I like that".
There is a reply of a Dev(don't remember if you or another one) in spring 2019 about underperforming ranged SW,the reply said "we know that ranged SW is underperforming and it will not stay like that forever". Well, the most logical thing to do would be to fix the blatantly underperforming classes before touching the most performant ones.

I will not do any proposal on the forum because ithere are much more experienced ranged SW then me that are more qualified than me to make good proposal. However, a simple number tweaking like the one done on this patch on WL would greatly help SW situation without requiring an huge amount of work.

If I can make a suggestion, If I were you I would create a group of very very skilled players which do a bunch of tests and analysis for balancing classes, while leaving you developers free to work to whatever you like the most. Every suggestion of this player balancing team would be tried for 15 days to understand the impact of the changes on big numbers, before approving them as stable change.
The general things that this team should address would be:
1)every class should have at least one tree warband-friendly. RvR is too much important in this game to have classes good on solo/6vs6 only.
2)every class should never greatly outperform the corresponding mirror class. SW should not be way weaker than squig herder. Marauder dps should not be way weaker than white lion+lion dps. Slayer mdps capability should not be way stronger than choppa counterpart.most of those unbalanced could be solved by simple tweak of numbers, few of them requires a deeper change. The obviously the 15 days testing would be needed to understand the change behavior, looking also at sinergies with other classes.
3)there should not be class too much difficult to play - I see at WH/WE currently state, where they do same damage of other mdps without having medium Armour.
All those things require clever proposal, proper analysis, and very experienced players. A dedicated team would leave you devs a lot of free time while solving one of the most evident server issues: class balancing.
Summing up:you can always do whatever you want in your server, no one discuss that. But if you wanna follow a logical path on what and how to make changes, I would split things in "interesting improvements to the Ror game play" and "balancing issues with a precise priority list and a precise methodology" instead of applying random fixes on non priority classes.
The DoTs modified were low to the point of non-existent, also the Mara one that nobody mentions.

Follows three paragraphs where you seem to completely forget that people doing this are volunteers.

1) No, why? A lot of experienced solo players, or solo noobs like myself, will tell you that the point was never that. It's fine to have ambusher classes for many reasons and people. If you want to play a WE, you can probably imagine by level 10-14 that the class is not made for big fights, no need to create a fool-proof build just cause you want to run nearly naked in WBs...

2) I see here A LOT of misrepresentation. Not even comment anything else than: Play them. You seem to have no freaking idea of what you speak of, or have an strong destro bias.

3) I return here to point 1: No, why? Cause you want easy gameplay running around semi-naked? Well, not enough reason to oversimplify any class, specially those with very high burst damage and stealth. They currently have the tools to work with. Again, no fool-proof build required, there are easy classes already like WP/DoK or Chosen/KotBS.

Follows two paragraphs where you subtlety call idiots to anyone not sharing your opinions and work style.
Spoiler:

engharat
Posts: 17

Re: Patch Notes 25/01/2020

Post#46 » Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:30 pm

Ototo wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:57 pm
engharat wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:46 am
Incredibly long post:
Spoiler:
wargrimnir wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:07 pm


Devs don't work on things based off leading questions raised after the fact by community members. We certainly don't work on one class with any regard to any other class unless it has highly relevant reasons to do so. We also work on things because we enjoy it, have been intrigued by something, find an interesting angle to tweak something, or just feel a responsibility at some random moment to address it.

If you have detailed and specific improvements you would like to see for ranged sq/sw post them on the balance forum. If they're worth using right away they might get implemented, if they're worth discussing they might get moved to the discussion section. If they're worthless they'll probably just sit there.
Sorry but I think your logic is flawed. If I would say "why don't you work on improving Land of the death zone?" and you would reply "because I and my colleagues are more interested in improving forts", I would totally understand your position. But when speaking about class balance via tweaking numbers, I don't see any sound logic in the reasoning "I wanna improve WL skills because I like that".
There is a reply of a Dev(don't remember if you or another one) in spring 2019 about underperforming ranged SW,the reply said "we know that ranged SW is underperforming and it will not stay like that forever". Well, the most logical thing to do would be to fix the blatantly underperforming classes before touching the most performant ones.

I will not do any proposal on the forum because ithere are much more experienced ranged SW then me that are more qualified than me to make good proposal. However, a simple number tweaking like the one done on this patch on WL would greatly help SW situation without requiring an huge amount of work.

If I can make a suggestion, If I were you I would create a group of very very skilled players which do a bunch of tests and analysis for balancing classes, while leaving you developers free to work to whatever you like the most. Every suggestion of this player balancing team would be tried for 15 days to understand the impact of the changes on big numbers, before approving them as stable change.
The general things that this team should address would be:
1)every class should have at least one tree warband-friendly. RvR is too much important in this game to have classes good on solo/6vs6 only.
2)every class should never greatly outperform the corresponding mirror class. SW should not be way weaker than squig herder. Marauder dps should not be way weaker than white lion+lion dps. Slayer mdps capability should not be way stronger than choppa counterpart.most of those unbalanced could be solved by simple tweak of numbers, few of them requires a deeper change. The obviously the 15 days testing would be needed to understand the change behavior, looking also at sinergies with other classes.
3)there should not be class too much difficult to play - I see at WH/WE currently state, where they do same damage of other mdps without having medium Armour.
All those things require clever proposal, proper analysis, and very experienced players. A dedicated team would leave you devs a lot of free time while solving one of the most evident server issues: class balancing.
Summing up:you can always do whatever you want in your server, no one discuss that. But if you wanna follow a logical path on what and how to make changes, I would split things in "interesting improvements to the Ror game play" and "balancing issues with a precise priority list and a precise methodology" instead of applying random fixes on non priority classes.
The DoTs modified were low to the point of non-existent, also the Mara one that nobody mentions.

Follows three paragraphs where you seem to completely forget that people doing this are volunteers.

1) No, why? A lot of experienced solo players, or solo noobs like myself, will tell you that the point was never that. It's fine to have ambusher classes for many reasons and people. If you want to play a WE, you can probably imagine by level 10-14 that the class is not made for big fights, no need to create a fool-proof build just cause you want to run nearly naked in WBs...

2) I see here A LOT of misrepresentation. Not even comment anything else than: Play them. You seem to have no freaking idea of what you speak of, or have an strong destro bias.

3) I return here to point 1: No, why? Cause you want easy gameplay running around semi-naked? Well, not enough reason to oversimplify any class, specially those with very high burst damage and stealth. They currently have the tools to work with. Again, no fool-proof build required, there are easy classes already like WP/DoK or Chosen/KotBS.

Follows two paragraphs where you subtlety call idiots to anyone not sharing your opinions and work style.
Dear Otolo, I'm not offending anyone. Never talked nor thought about idiots on any case, both for devs and for community. I've just reasoned on what it seems to be an illogical way of working on balance stuffs. The fact that the devs are not paid to do what they do is a fact that no one ignore. Devs are working on this project in their free time as volunteers, I proposed a dedicated team of experienced players as volunteers, and any people of the community that could help improving this game in any manner would work as a volunteer. I am glad to play such a great game thanks to the work of all RoR volunteers; it seems to me just a bit silly to repeat this preface on every post.
So, starting always from the premise that it is volunteer work, and that the devs are free to do whatever they like because this is their server, I suggested a more logical way to address those things. I'm biased towards destro because I play only destro, and thus I would never engage myself on any balance thing between two mirror classes - as I would know only one of them. But my line of reason and my proposal are not meant to give advantage to any of the two factions: as an example, I think that ranged SW situation is the most critical one from a balance point of view.
Finally, I have made some examples on what could be addressed in *my* point of view (SW, WH/WE, marauder, choppa) - but my post is not about specific improvements, it is about a precise methodology to tackle most important things to balance and to split them w.r.t. "interesting things to work on". You missed totally my point, and probably I explained it badly, I hope to have clarified this.

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Natherul
Former Staff
Posts: 3147
Contact:

Re: Patch Notes 25/01/2020

Post#47 » Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:53 pm

lets stay on the topic of patch note as thats what this topic is.

As for balance, we are not interested in having outside players attempt to be some think tank for ideas and balance as it was tried and failed spectacularly. And do add to that the notion that each career has to have a "good" tree for each type of content is simply not happening. We have explained the reasoning behind that many times and if you search for it you will probably find it.

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Xergon
Posts: 543

Re: Patch Notes 25/01/2020

Post#48 » Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:24 pm

Natherul wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:53 pm
lets stay on the topic of patch note as thats what this topic is.

As for balance, we are not interested in having outside players attempt to be some think tank for ideas and balance as it was tried and failed spectacularly. And do add to that the notion that each career has to have a "good" tree for each type of content is simply not happening. We have explained the reasoning behind that many times and if you search for it you will probably find it.
If not players who actually plays the game then who ? Devs who barely plays the game if any ?

Now that u mentioned it i wonder why it failed ? Maybe because proposals and ideas from those players were not accepted or agreeing with Devs vision ?

I only rmb Aza trying actually put some ideas into real server to see how it will play out (also giving reasons why some changes happen). I wonder why devs dont try making changes and see how it plays out, u can always revert it if something comes out badly or tune it to be proper number. After all its still Alpha phase server, right ?

About Patch Notes, i wonder whats the reason behind Mara/WL Changes ? Is it because ST WL/Mara was not performing enough already or did i miss something ?
Last edited by Xergon on Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Acidic
Posts: 1508
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Re: Patch Notes 25/01/2020

Post#49 » Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:30 pm

Akilinus wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:15 am
Acidic wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:34 am
Would there be any chance in armory to search in class so you could see rr leader board including those that don’t do SC
Would be nice
You already got your statues.
Never too late to start doing scenarios
Statues are for highest gained rr in week if I remember right. I just liked the rr highest rr sort for a class, was not able to find a way to do what used to be in old armory

User avatar
Akilinus
Posts: 291

Re: Patch Notes 25/01/2020

Post#50 » Thu Jan 30, 2020 4:40 pm

Acidic wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:30 pm
Akilinus wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:15 am
Acidic wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 11:34 am
Would there be any chance in armory to search in class so you could see rr leader board including those that don’t do SC
Would be nice
You already got your statues.
Never too late to start doing scenarios
Statues are for highest gained rr in week if I remember right. I just liked the rr highest rr sort for a class, was not able to find a way to do what used to be in old armory
Okay. Sorry I missunderstood you
Kkomrade 80 Zealot Akilinuz 75 Chosen
Mauzer 60 Kotbs Kkomrades 80 Black Guard
Rhodesia 60 SH

[Brotherman]

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