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Changelog 25/11/16

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Morf
Posts: 1247

Re: Changelog 25/11/16

Post#141 » Tue Nov 29, 2016 3:51 pm

Azarael wrote:It's always the same...

Game devs with "decades" of experience. Whoop de doo! While I doubt you can find anyone with "decades of experience" designing RvR games specifically, guess what professional game devs want?

To get paid and not to get fired.

Do you think professional game devs have such incredible control over their games that they have the leeway to try whatever they want with a playerbase, and issue patch after patch after patch in quick succession to refine an entire system, like we do here? God no. They're hamstrung, as has been said multiple times, by orders from above, and most likely those orders from above are coming from corporate or publishers who are reading tears on the game's forums and watching falling subscriber numbers and ordering their subordinates not to engage in any kind of upheaval or transition state which could threaten numbers further. Add in the effect of internal bureaucracy, priorities and directions from management and the fact that designers and the people responsible for implementation, either code or art, are usually different people...

While i dont claim to be knowledgeable about every game dev in the industry and there accomplishments its common sense that they will want to be successful at what they do, they dont want to fail, failing can mean loosing there job after all.
Are you seriously saying that they are incapable of doing a better job then the likes of yourself because of pressure from above ? they have a better chance of doing stuff right because they have huge budgets, the experience and have the right ppl around them, remember that i have seen who influences your decisions behind the scenes and at times some of the stuff i saw was laughable and completely out of touch as sorry as i am to say that.

Look at mark jacobs for example, while he would be the first to accept his hands were tied with AOR there is no doubt he learnt a ton, alot of what he learnt he is putting into CU. I have watched some of the streams where he does Q&A and the zerg question comes up alot, he has said himself you cannot stop players from zerging and that a stat/power increase or decrease to combat a zerg is never the right way to do it, you have given us a stat increase/decrease to counter pop indifference and have dug your heels in when saying you cant stop zerging.
Azarael wrote:The more you say it's unsolvable, the more I will push back and devote resources to solving the problem. This is a game, not bloody quantum physics.
while i admire your determination there comes a line when crossed that you venture into the realm of foolishness, refusing to acknowledge some things cannot be fixed.
Azarael wrote: You saw the result of this with WP and DoK on live. They had 5 years to try to make that class work in melee. What did these professionals end up doing? Making them a backline healer. Experience is just that: experience. It doesn't make you right, it doesn't make you infallible, it is by NO MEANS the only factor in development and it sure as hell isn't enough to carry an argument on its own.

Secondly, you should know that when you're talking to devs, you're talking to people who will take "You can't / will never stop X" as a challenge. The more you say it's unsolvable, the more I will push back and devote resources to solving the problem. This is a game, not bloody quantum physics.
As for changes look at the RvR system, you have been working on it and trying to find a decent system since t3, that was a long time ago, so far you havent succeeded and im inclined to think its worse then previous iterations, i see more complaints with the current system then i saw with the previous system and the bo farm system we had in t3, each change further increases the need to zerg.

look at the wp/dok changes, while some love it backline dok/wp can still heal as they did (just with less armor) and are now reliant on hitting stuff in melee which you cannot do against range, that is a flawed imo.
Dps wp and dps dok are borderline OP, i have been guarding a guildie on his dps dok and we were going up against odds of 2 v 8+, same situation when guarding a guildie who was messing around on his dps wp, he is ridiculously undergeared(and is bad, sorry m8 :D ) and was still out dps'ing proper dps and outhealing proper backline healers.
Now there were times when we got rekt by rdps heavy opponents thats the thing with dps dok/wp you are either completely OP or you completely suck, the more you try to make them perfect (which you cannot) the more players who loved there dok/wp dont bother playing it and some dont even bother login in to play it anymore.
The changes no doubt appear to have been worked on alot and taken alot of time to get to where they are, i can only tip my hat however was all this really needed to start off with ? dps heal dok pre changes were in a good place, undefendable changing % of x skill etc etc, its unnecessary complex imo, small steps not huge complex changes.
I have to go back to Ade's video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhOWGRVpdqA honestly is this actually seen as legit damage ? why wasnt the feedback from this its OP ? this is like watching a rr100 dps wp go up againts a sov WE pre warpforge nerf, if this is deemed ok then its not looking good for the future imo.
Azarael wrote: Thirdly... if the argument is coming down to purism again (and you admitted it multiple times), please spare me. You know it doesn't get anywhere with me. If you're going to reply by talking about the risk of not being pure, again, don't. Our stance was taken a long time ago, it's written in the rules and at this point I'm prepared to instruct the mods to wipe any post which assumes that we don't know that purists will be dissatisfied if the game changes in any manner they don't like. Consider the point well and truly taken, as it was weeks ago.
What you have to understand Az is that nostalgia/purism whatever you want to call it is the reason why nearly all of us are here, by no means am i saying AOR was perfect but it was by no means so broken that ROR needs to change so drastically to improve.
"Purists" as you call them want change and improvements but not so much that they dont recognise the game anymore or the
aspect they found fun no longer exists.

You seem obsessed with thinking you can fix everything and make everything perfect, this is unrealistic and foolish. I get you put your heart and soul into this project and i have the utmost respect for you but you did say in the past should you not be able to make something work you would scrap your hard work and take a step backwards to move forwards, what you said in your post says to me that you wont do this and will continue to push for perfection when that doesnt exist.

I hope ppl dont get the wrong idea and assume im whining about ****, without Az and everyone else working on this project war wouldnt exist and for this alone we owe them so much however as someone who speaks his mind and is vocal about there feelings i feel obliged to say my piece, even more so when there are others who have an opinion and dont feel it necessary to say anything, some of which share the same opinions as i do, sure it may make me look like the badguy or the asshole but if that is what it takes to be heard i will do so.
Morfee - Shaman / Mynnos - Kotbs / Grubod - Black Orc / Snubz - Squig Herder

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Satoq
Posts: 27

Re: Changelog 25/11/16

Post#142 » Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:57 pm

Morf wrote:Snip... .
I completely agree, point for point.
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Kazekiri
Posts: 100

Re: Changelog 25/11/16

Post#143 » Tue Nov 29, 2016 6:23 pm

Can't agree more with Morf, he just express the opinion of many, and many of us arent able to put such a english-perfect post like that to express what we feel about the game right now. He just did it perfectly.

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wargrimnir
Head Game Master
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Re: Changelog 25/11/16

Post#144 » Tue Nov 29, 2016 8:19 pm

Sounds like an active development server isn't exactly the cup of tea some people were expecting. Pretty sure we've warned you all, repeatedly. You are going to suffer some pain while we iterate through dozens of different ways to do things.

We don't plan on keep things that are utter shite, but we're certainly going to explore many things that will make you uncomfortable. You know devs play the game, they will come to see many of the same problems you see. There's no reason to scream it in their face how wrong and foolish they are, and to be quite frank the tone of some of these posts are getting my hammer finger all twitchy.

Calm your emotions. Learn to argue without being caustic. Accept that even if you may be correct, things do not change immediately, or in a way that you necessarily expect.
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