Patchnotes 30/12/16

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GodlessCrom
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Re: Patchnotes 30/12/16

Post#11 » Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:33 pm

I was gonna say: isn't this how it worked on live? Now we just need for pqs to contribute ;)
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Azarael
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Re: Patchnotes 30/12/16

Post#12 » Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:34 pm

As previously mentioned, the timers are calibrated to stop the most common strategy, which was rolling with a zerg to whichever BO was under attack and crushing it. The system is designed such that you should maintain cover on all BOs regardless of conditions, which will give you the defense bonus to contested and lock timers. Then, if one of your points should happen to be zerged, the contested timer will be large, allowing you to either counter zerg it or ignore it and take the enemy's BOs, as they will have no defense advantage if they are zerging. If the objectives are not zerged, then there's no issue.

The problem right now is that people are still playing classically, in huge blobs. If you do that, not only will you have large contested timers and short locks, but if one or two of the enemy tap a BO your realm wasn't guarding, you will never get to it in time and it will lock for ages. Again, working perfectly as intended.

If the blobbing continues regardless of this, I will regard it as a combat system issue and move in that direction.

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NoRKaLKiLLa
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Re: Patchnotes 30/12/16

Post#13 » Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:09 pm

I'm away for the holiday so I can't play, but I'm liking what I'm reading.

I'd like to suggest that successfully returning supplies to a keep that is under attack give a larger renown tick to the party who does so. It would give the good six man's who would otherwise be aimlessly roaming for unlucky stragglers an incentive to participate in the campaign and further encourage them not to simply camp a postern door. A 1k RP reward, just like a scenario win, would make a difference.
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dur3al
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Re: Patchnotes 30/12/16

Post#14 » Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:58 pm

Azarael wrote:The problem right now is that people are still playing classically, in huge blobs. If you do that, not only will you have large contested timers and short locks, but if one or two of the enemy tap a BO your realm wasn't guarding, you will never get to it in time and it will lock for ages. Again, working perfectly as intended.

If the blobbing continues regardless of this, I will regard it as a combat system issue and move in that direction.


I'm really not seeing your reasoning. Correct me if I'm wrong but the solution you are going for, as far as I understood, is to make locking the zone harder (taking longer) if you faction is blobbing correct?

But what if both sides are blobbing?

The underdog faction can and will usually blob too, because safety in numbers are the most effective way to grab kills and farm AAO (same for defending inside safety of keeps). So what is there for the high populated side to do? Taking and defending BOs are not the issue, finding fights is, and since the low-populated side blob is usually by their warcamp for safety (or keep), this is the only place you'll find enemies to kill, so the concentration of players remain at the same place despite changes.

I'll give a practical example:

On order we had 40-60% AAO in CW and the usual destro blob vs order blob fight was happening in the south region, the fights were usually happening at our warcamp and varying a bit to order's keep postern.

Our 4 man decided to go north take BOs, we took the first one and got around 700 rp considering the initial tick and the final one, since the BO locked in less then a minute it locked very fast, and we moved on to the next north BO. Before we could even tap it we got massively zerged by a warband.

Considering the AAO we had, its safe to assume that the blob vs blob fighting kept going down south and the zerg split up a bit to defend north BOs, but since they were "out of position" they got a long timer to wait in one of them now... but what's changed?
I'm sure to destruction it didn't really matter to have the long timer BO (its more of an annoyance really) because they're not really interested in taking a zone fast. There is no city sieges so speed is not really a necessity - they are just looking to gather as much kills and contribution to gain rps once the zone lock, so flipping BOs back and forth is fine. And even if they would've had lost both south BOs because they moved north, the same apply... they don't really care that much because they can get more contribution flipping them back.

Now I ask from the perspective of our 4 man, what is the point of us trying to split from the blob fighting and go do the north objectives again? For the amount of rps we gained we could've easily blended in the blob vs blob fighting and get much more renown from kills there. It is exactly what most players do to farm renown & kills, just look at the kill counter and where those players are fighting at - never in a high risk position, just playing safely blended in blobs.

And even if we had city sieges and delaying would be a thing, it still makes absolutely no sense if there is no incentive to spread out. The losing side might as well just farm AAO by blobbing while they can until city siege to get their items.

You should consider not only how effective a small group can "annoy" the high populated side, these mechanics are just not fun to anyone, but more in terms to make it worth for small groups to do so.
Martyr's Square: Sync & Nerfedbuttons - enigma
Martyr's Square: Dureal & Method - Disrespect/It's Orz again
Badlands: Dureal & Alatheus - Exo
Karak-Norn: Sejanus - Blitz/Elementz

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wargrimnir
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Re: Patchnotes 30/12/16

Post#15 » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:13 pm

dur3al wrote:
Azarael wrote:The problem right now is that people are still playing classically, in huge blobs. If you do that, not only will you have large contested timers and short locks, but if one or two of the enemy tap a BO your realm wasn't guarding, you will never get to it in time and it will lock for ages. Again, working perfectly as intended.

If the blobbing continues regardless of this, I will regard it as a combat system issue and move in that direction.


Spoiler:
I'm really not seeing your reasoning. Correct me if I'm wrong but the solution you are going for, as far as I understood, is to make locking the zone harder (taking longer) if you faction is blobbing correct?

But what if both sides are blobbing?

The underdog faction can and will usually blob too, because safety in numbers are the most effective way to grab kills and farm AAO (same for defending inside safety of keeps). So what is there for the high populated side to do? Taking and defending BOs are not the issue, finding fights is, and since the low-populated side blob is usually by their warcamp for safety (or keep), this is the only place you'll find enemies to kill, so the concentration of players remain at the same place despite changes.

I'll give a practical example:

On order we had 40-60% AAO in CW and the usual destro blob vs order blob fight was happening in the south region, the fights were usually happening at our warcamp and varying a bit to order's keep postern.

Our 4 man decided to go north take BOs, we took the first one and got around 700 rp considering the initial tick and the final one, since the BO locked in less then a minute it locked very fast, and we moved on to the next north BO. Before we could even tap it we got massively zerged by a warband.

Considering the AAO we had, its safe to assume that the blob vs blob fighting kept going down south and the zerg split up a bit to defend north BOs, but since they were "out of position" they got a long timer to wait in one of them now... but what's changed?
I'm sure to destruction it didn't really matter to have the long timer BO (its more of an annoyance really) because they're not really interested in taking a zone fast. There is no city sieges so speed is not really a necessity - they are just looking to gather as much kills and contribution to gain rps once the zone lock, so flipping BOs back and forth is fine. And even if they would've had lost both south BOs because they moved north, the same apply... they don't really care that much because they can get more contribution flipping them back.

Now I ask from the perspective of our 4 man, what is the point of us trying to split from the blob fighting and go do the north objectives again? For the amount of rps we gained we could've easily blended in the blob vs blob fighting and get much more renown from kills there. It is exactly what most players do to farm renown & kills, just look at the kill counter and where those players are fighting at - never in a high risk position, just playing safely blended in blobs.

And even if we had city sieges and delaying would be a thing, it still makes absolutely no sense if there is no incentive to spread out. The losing side might as well just farm AAO by blobbing while they can until city siege to get their items.

You should consider not only how effective a small group can "annoy" the high populated side, these mechanics are just not fun to anyone, but more in terms to make it worth for small groups to do so.
TL;DR "this is bad, don't do dis"


I await feverishly for your equally detailed constructive addendum to your elaborate beratement of a system work-in-progress.

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blaqwar
Posts: 471

Re: Patchnotes 30/12/16

Post#16 » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:37 pm

After testing the changes in earnest in BC today, from start to finish (pretty much) I can say I very much like what I'm seeing from these changes. After the keep was taken order spread out around the BOs to hold them and defend. As far as I remember destro had 60% AAO but that didn't stop them from fighting back, unfortunately tonight they weren't organised/fielded enough to lock any BOs bar the closest to the WC and with BC being notoriously crappy as an ORvR map they really didn't have much of a chance.

The BO objective timers didn't seem to be too out of whack, eventhough there was a lot of player movement through PvE zones (don't think in an effort to exploit the system but rather to disguise movements and flank).

Granted this was my subjective experience of locking one zone but I'll reiterate that I like where the direction the changes are taking. More testing is needed of course.

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zabis
Posts: 1087

Re: Patchnotes 30/12/16

Post#17 » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:51 pm

Now that we're getting a better oRvR experience, is there any way to bring back a Seal of Domination type reward, but this time you only get rewarded with one if you have X amount of contribution? That way people aren't flipping over at the last moment to get one.
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davispeed
Posts: 92

Re: Patchnotes 30/12/16

Post#18 » Sat Dec 31, 2016 3:23 am

mogt wrote:can anyone, translated that in german?


....Even in english im lost here.... :? :roll:
..::DOK60::.. ..::BO57::..

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dur3al
Posts: 221

Re: Patchnotes 30/12/16

Post#19 » Sat Dec 31, 2016 6:34 am

wargrimnir wrote:
dur3al wrote:
Azarael wrote:The problem right now is that people are still playing classically, in huge blobs. If you do that, not only will you have large contested timers and short locks, but if one or two of the enemy tap a BO your realm wasn't guarding, you will never get to it in time and it will lock for ages. Again, working perfectly as intended.

If the blobbing continues regardless of this, I will regard it as a combat system issue and move in that direction.


Spoiler:
I'm really not seeing your reasoning. Correct me if I'm wrong but the solution you are going for, as far as I understood, is to make locking the zone harder (taking longer) if you faction is blobbing correct?

But what if both sides are blobbing?

The underdog faction can and will usually blob too, because safety in numbers are the most effective way to grab kills and farm AAO (same for defending inside safety of keeps). So what is there for the high populated side to do? Taking and defending BOs are not the issue, finding fights is, and since the low-populated side blob is usually by their warcamp for safety (or keep), this is the only place you'll find enemies to kill, so the concentration of players remain at the same place despite changes.

I'll give a practical example:

On order we had 40-60% AAO in CW and the usual destro blob vs order blob fight was happening in the south region, the fights were usually happening at our warcamp and varying a bit to order's keep postern.

Our 4 man decided to go north take BOs, we took the first one and got around 700 rp considering the initial tick and the final one, since the BO locked in less then a minute it locked very fast, and we moved on to the next north BO. Before we could even tap it we got massively zerged by a warband.

Considering the AAO we had, its safe to assume that the blob vs blob fighting kept going down south and the zerg split up a bit to defend north BOs, but since they were "out of position" they got a long timer to wait in one of them now... but what's changed?
I'm sure to destruction it didn't really matter to have the long timer BO (its more of an annoyance really) because they're not really interested in taking a zone fast. There is no city sieges so speed is not really a necessity - they are just looking to gather as much kills and contribution to gain rps once the zone lock, so flipping BOs back and forth is fine. And even if they would've had lost both south BOs because they moved north, the same apply... they don't really care that much because they can get more contribution flipping them back.

Now I ask from the perspective of our 4 man, what is the point of us trying to split from the blob fighting and go do the north objectives again? For the amount of rps we gained we could've easily blended in the blob vs blob fighting and get much more renown from kills there. It is exactly what most players do to farm renown & kills, just look at the kill counter and where those players are fighting at - never in a high risk position, just playing safely blended in blobs.

And even if we had city sieges and delaying would be a thing, it still makes absolutely no sense if there is no incentive to spread out. The losing side might as well just farm AAO by blobbing while they can until city siege to get their items.

You should consider not only how effective a small group can "annoy" the high populated side, these mechanics are just not fun to anyone, but more in terms to make it worth for small groups to do so.
TL;DR "this is bad, don't do dis"


I await feverishly for your equally detailed constructive addendum to your elaborate beratement of a system work-in-progress.


I await feverishly for a smart reply which includes a quote from me saying "this is bad, don't do dis" while all I said that this will not really fix blobbing. :roll:

My suggestion, greatly increase the amount of rp gained for taking BOs while detracting from the final lock, this will in effect make everyone want to go for open enemy BOs for renown instead of sitting in the blob vs blob fight just occasionally taking BOs to maximize their renown gain once the zone locks.
Martyr's Square: Sync & Nerfedbuttons - enigma
Martyr's Square: Dureal & Method - Disrespect/It's Orz again
Badlands: Dureal & Alatheus - Exo
Karak-Norn: Sejanus - Blitz/Elementz

Tankbeardz
Posts: 282

Re: Patchnotes 30/12/16

Post#20 » Sat Dec 31, 2016 9:02 am

Good idea...not sure where it goes from here. Since the changes, I have noticed consistent 2-1 to 4-1 (I can't recall ever seeing imbalance like this before) ratios of population imbalance. I'm not sure this is what you had in mind but it seems like people who switch to the winning side just have more time to do so now.

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