Server Patch Notes 20/07/2018

[ToXoS]

Auto detaunt and speed boost tactics for shammies counterbalance wild healing imo. So if it gets changed, those should as well, because being alive is probably more important as a healer than having infinite AP. Also, Zealots and RP can have pretty much limitless AP as well, so it seems like a problem only in a vacuum.

That's not how balancing is supposed to be done.
I would understand this if wild healing and shammy tactics were mirrored, but they are not.
These 2 Shaman tactics are also SH tactics since they are goblin ones.
Also, having "infinite AP" like you said, means infinite healing. That means survival.

[live4treasure]

Except it doesn't matter if it's infinite healing if you get bursted down by the enemy in a knockdown. Shaman can just avoid taking damage entirely by kiting and using that detaunt tactic. If you disagree then slot full willpower talismans and show me just how much you can survive vs a full toughness, wound or armor talisman shammy.

So, once again, as long as those frankly amazing tactics are in shaman's repertoire, that means that adding anything to him will mean that he will have access to goblin tactics AND the other tactics as well, and saying that it's a racial tactic so it's fine is a flimsy argument at best. Shaman is arguably a better healer because of his survivability tactics and has been for a long time.

[Ramasee]

Spoiler:

Auto detaunt and speed boost tactics for shammies counterbalance wild healing imo. So if it gets changed, those should as well, because being alive is probably more important as a healer than having infinite AP. Also, Zealots and RP can have pretty much limitless AP as well, so it seems like a problem only in a vacuum.

That's not how balancing is supposed to be done.
I would understand this if wild healing and shammy tactics were mirrored, but they are not.
These 2 Shaman tactics are also SH tactics since they are goblin ones.

Also, having "infinite AP" like you said, means infinite healing. That means survival.

Thats not entirely correct. In warhammer, healing per second value to dps value ratio is significantly lower than many other games due the abundant avoidance you are capable of getting on most classes. You can get upwards of 4.2 effective healing modifier on tanks for example. However, healers as a general rule of thumb have terrible defensive stats against physical attacks (melee dps and physical ranged) and due to the natural chance to be critically hit usually have healing modifers against physical damage being LESS than 1.

This means that for an AM against 8 destro classes, their healing modifier is (usually) less than 1 and two of the remaining 4 classes are healers. For shamans, it is 9 order classes (two of the remaining being healers). So both their self-healing (which also gets pushed back) cannot keep up against being attacked. However increased movement speed tactic allows shamans to keep distance from 7/9 of its opponents, and the no GCD detaunt allows double survival (and effective healing value) against all 9.

This is why shamans can be labeled survivable where AMs cannot. Even though AMs have higher HPS values due to no down-time in casting.


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(EDIT)
Don't get me wrong, I don't want those mirrored. I would rather see the AM's strengths improved/modified either to deal with their weakness, or have a better reason to have the weakness.

[ToXoS]

Everyone know that Shaman is better than AM when it comes to survivability, I'm not gonna deny that. But if, like said above, a shaman is using these tactics, well, that costs 2 tactics slots anyway. That's not nothing.
Wild healing costs one. And I'm not the one saying that wild healing and goblins racial tactics counterbalance eachother. Even if it was the case, that would just prove that wild healing is overperforming because it costs only one slot.

My point saying that they are racial tactics was not to say that "it's fine". My point was that, with your mindset "if wild healing is nerfed then these 2 goblin tactics should too", you're not just going to nerf Shaman, but also SH, which doesn't need another nerf.
And all of that because you're salty that your class got changed in a way you don't like.

Guess what? I play Shaman, and I want to go DPS, but it is **** because my spells are not landing reliably. Meanwhile, AM have 2 tactics that add disrupt strikethrough (and one is HE racial btw). Should these tactic be nerfed because Shaman doesn't have it or have something different instead? Ofc no. Same thing about the goblins racial tactics.

[live4treasure]

It doesn't counterbalance each other, because shaman is the superior healer. Because they can survive better, that makes them heal better. So those two tactics make shaman viable, while AM is not as viable of a healer as shaman.

So then the obvious conclusion is not to nerf Wild Healing, because then you would have to nerf the survivability tactics and that would nerf SH. If Wild Healing is nerfed, then it has to be compensated by making AMs more tanky.

[ToXoS]

Auto detaunt and speed boost tactics for shammies counterbalance wild healing imo.

It doesn't counterbalance each other, because shaman is the superior healer.

Make up your mind...

So then the obvious conclusion is not to nerf Wild Healing, because then you would have to nerf the survivability tactics and that would nerf SH. If Wild Healing is nerfed, then it has to be compensated by making AMs more tanky.

So I guess you don't see the issue here, do you?
Why nerf SH if it doesn't need it?
I told you already, that's not how balance is done .
Thanks to the MMORPG gods, you're not in charge of balance here

[live4treasure]

I think you're arguing with an agenda here, because as far as I'm concerned, AM healer doesn't need a nerf either. Its lack of survivability, as said a hundred times, is what keeps it from being viable. You keep arguing circles around this fact and clinging to specific words, but you haven't actually produced a single solid argument to prove your point. This conversation is also pointless, because your argument has now become an attempt at personal insult, which is usually a sign of someone having nothing else productive to say. It's also telling that you chose to ignore any of Ramasee's points in your above post and by the fact that you only read half of the sentences you quoted in the last bit.

TL;DR The only acceptable change to Wild Healing would be if healer AM's survivability was buffed in some minor way in order to compensate it, and that's what I said above. SH's has nothing to do with it and that's not what I was suggesting above. I'm done with this conversation though, so have a good one.

[ToXoS]

Sure buddy, go away if you want, I'm not the one contradicting myself.
Tbh I don't think AM needs a nerf (remember when I said that AM disrupt strikethrough tactics shouldn't be nerfed also ?)
I don't have any point to prove here, I'm just showing you how idiotic your idea of balance is (not saying that YOU are an idiot, see the difference ?).
So no, no personal insult here, sorry but you're not a victim.
I just think that you are afraid of a nerf because of Torque last comment about wild healing. Again, I don't personally have anything against it or AM in general.
Ramasee post was nice and accurate, but he/she is not the one talking about balancing while referring to the mirror of a class, which has no bearing balance-wise.

[Foomy44]

Tried out a couple hours of dps shammy to see if it was as bad as this thread was wanting me to believe (and yes disrupt sucks for them, I have been spamming that everywhere forever, no changes there). Was pleasantly surprised, I felt pretty useful in the build I tried out (2 morale pump tactics, insta rez, divine fury).

I think the change to how mechanic points are gained/lost makes it obvious we shouldn't be attempting to juggle anymore so no point in discussing it's viability IMO. As is, I can play like a dps and save up points to blow em later for decent groups heals when needed, while throwing out plenty more utility than most DPS bring thru insta rez, crazy good group morale pumping, aoe ele debuffing, aoe slow, ranged aoe knockbacks, resist buff, etc. My aoe heal usually does around 6-7k healing total for the cast (can get higher with crits n buffs), if you got 5 points saved up and everyone in your group is low then spamming aoe heal is a pretty useful option to have, or if you are retreating you are gonna be a lot more useful than a running Mara for your team with 5 good hots/shields to throw out + puddle. No we aren't gonna out DPS a BW/Sorc or outheal a healer but the flexibility is real nice so if you tend to play in pugs where perfect comp isn't important it seems like a viable choice to me atm.

Solo roam dps is probably still crap but that's not something devs balance around anyways. Yes we are squishy as hell and our self healing is terrible but that's what your group is for. Being able to insta rez healers everytime they go down usually ends up leading to more healing overall, and if you are good at it and let healers around you know you'll be on top of it it's a lot less wasted GCDs from multiple healers trying to rez same target.

Seems like enough utility to me to justify playing it, and has a pretty high skill ceiling IMO (as do most hybrids, having to juggle offensive targets and injured teammates at same time alone is a lot more targetting work than most classes deal with). Just my first impressions but seems like more of a buff than a nerf to me for dps spec group play if you play to it's strengths.

[Ramasee]

Bolstering Enchantments and Vaul's Buffer tactics: The tooltip values still raise with points placed into their old respective trees. Is this intended or should I test if they are matching their tooltip values and bug report it?