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Client Changelog 01/09/2018

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Darosh
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Posts: 1198

Re: Client Changelog 01/09/2018

Post#91 » Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:10 pm

Azarael wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:46 pm
Darosh wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:15 pm
Personal preference is a strawman if you use it as base for argumentation, just to contradict yourself later on down the road... the ability to use/support something you do not like doesn't turn you into a saint, it just shows that your personal preference is in essence meaningless (as is the personal preference of everyone else).
Is it to be expected, that if you someday happen do dislike xyz in the game, xyz is being hammered away on in spite of it functioning; in spite of its actually flaws and shortcomings?
Probably. Does that make me any different from, say, anyone else in the world? If something gets changed - by anyone - it means they are unhappy with it. The question is whether or not you trust my reasoning, and if you don't, and not everyone will then... I'm afraid my answer to that is "What the hell."
First things first: I have no reason - nor intention - to trust your reasoning; it works or it doesn't, whatever change either acknowledges all aspects of the initial problem or it doesn't.
For all I know and care you can be upset about a forest in flames and go about extinguishing the fires, if you don't acknowledge the possibility of a dimwit lighting the fires your efforts are meaningless; if you rather resort to razing the forest to prevent further and future harm than to acknowledge possibility of a dimwit lighting the fires ... "What the hell."

Azarael wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:46 pm
Probably. Does that make me any different from, say, anyone else in the world? If something gets changed - by anyone - it means they are unhappy with it. The question is whether or not you trust my reasoning, and if you don't, and not everyone will then... I'm afraid my answer to that is "What the hell."
Darosh wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:15 pm
You didn't solve the shortcomings with the mastery trees either, you essentially moved a problem from one tree to another while subjecting the entire class to the implications of it, whilst tampering with the bits unrelated to the issues that you deemed too strong of a competition for your rework ~ without any consideration whatsoever of how paper-play conflicts with what is actually being played.
Sorry, but I de facto did solve the problem I set out to solve. That's not arguable. You now spec single target for single target and you spec AoE for AoE. I set out not to create the perfect class but to prevent Skavenslayer from being used for everything - and I "tampered" (your continued use of this word is beginning to annoy me) with the parts of Skavenslayer which were specifically being used for ST. My core problem was never "ID is mandatory" - would I complain that Ether Dance is mandatory in damaging SM builds? My core problem was that ID did everything and obscured the actual ST trees. If you're going to reply to me, acknowledge that.
Yes, you have succesfully tampered with the class, and made 2h semi-reliable in and of itself (as in 'working'/'playable'), but by no means solved the issue at hand. ID did obscure the actual ST trees, not because it's been overperforming, but because the alternatives were and are, afterall, garbage ~ your rework of Violent Impacts being a diamond within the dirt, I have to admit.
You've singled out ID whilst completly neglecting the other aspects that play into the terrible design and shortcomings of Giantslayer - ID has been fancied, and still is being fancied over 2h (bar roleplaying purposes and rule of cool) because it comes with, for example, dual wield and shatter limbs (you can pick up SL with 2h, but whats the point running 2h and sacrificing mastery points if you get better returns investing into everything but giantslayer?). You, again, moved problems around, you didn't fix them. If I were to describe your approach with one word: Tunnelvision.

On a sidenote: What's the point of reinforcing a finisher-weaving playstyle if the majority of relevant finishers have a +10s CD? It essentially consitutes Power-Through-lite ~ low-uptime on-demand burst that lacks behind in terms of reliability if compared to plain pressure any dual wield spec offers, whilst softlocking you into red regardless (you'll see yourself spamming just whatever finisher to get out of red, to buffer for the invetiable focus [credit where credit is due, your change to the detaunt alleviated it a bit] and AP starve yourself while you are at it)? It's playable, yes, it is also still outclassed outside of pug scenarios by others specs available and, more importantly, other classes - in terms of the latter: by miles - as it comes to ease of use, plain sustain, pressure, burst, utility and overall maintainence.


Abbd.:
In essence: two-ish crippled dualwield ST specs (one utilizing Giantslayer due to tactic dependency, the other utilizing Skavenslayer for the casual picks), an afterall lackluster 2h ST spec, and a slightly crippled AoE spec that is still essentially a dualwield ST with slightly diffrent picks.
What has your rework added to Giantslayer that outweighs ID, Short Temper, HD, Rampage, SL (,NE) - when do you see yourself playing a spec that brings no utility whatsoever (that another class with a more lenient maintainence couldn't bring without making unnecessary compromises) over a spec that performs well enough in every format, even with its lowered potency?

The abstract of the above is what I am worried about, good intention - rushed (not necessarily bad, it's not doom and gloom) execution.

Azarael wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:46 pm
Darosh wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:15 pm
In regards to the stacking hierachy, well, I take it, you rather change every single ability in the game to circumvent it - or rather the abilities that aren't to your personal liking - than the backend of it? For that as is, you've changed here a few abilities and there a few abilities, while the bulk of them are left untouched, you are essentially introducing more and more inconsistency for no good reason - is tackling the root of the issue really that much more of hassle than continuously fighting its symptoms?
Again - I changed 3 skills, two of which mirror one another, on a class, to be uncleansable, in response to a particular problem which was localized to those two classes. I see no reason whatsoever to cause further disruption by making the likes of Slasha, Mind Killer, Hack, Rend and other 3x stackers act as improved covers. You localize the change to the class you watn to change.
I refer to the change made to the blorc specficially, why did you single out this ability while there are dozens others that have the very same issue? The lines you draw are arbitrary.

Azarael wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:46 pm
I guess I've expended about as much effort as I'm prepared to against your opinion. I will judge myself by the end, and not opinions about the means. I have already said that I'm going to allow some time to stabilize while I work on some other things, but I was merely annoyed that the goalposts seem to have been moved to criticism of my means, rather than criticism of the end - I had read some comments earlier which seemed to be very similar - as if people couldn't criticise the class they were talking about in terms of its performance, so they looked harder for a nice stick, sufficiently tangentially related, with which to beat me.
That's an overly simplistic and convenient take on the matter, did it cross your mind that people held back with their criticism of your 'means' because they didn't expect you to continue your spree? Moreso, whatever the intention, does the criticism lose its validity based on the instant of time it is being issued in? Now imagine someone worked it backwards, criticized your means first and specific changes later on.

Again, I appreciate your effort, moreso I gotta give you credit for your inititaive and some really well crafted changes (and the fact that you are willing to deal with me, I am not a particularly pleasant derp to deal with, I am aware of that :p) - the vast majority of changes has been asked for since ages, that I'll give you too, however rushing it doesn't help the situation.

Now, in terms of consistency, bugs and yadayada, considering you are actively working on the combat-related backend, you might want to throw the community a bone and for the sake of spotting issues - atleast - 'hint' about what is being changed and what should be looked for (e.g.: abilities directly affected by the changes - iirc someone pointed out some odds things to me concerning procs), especially if you plan to churn out more changes (regardless of the pace at which you implement them).

E: Spelling, grammar. Too many words.
Last edited by Darosh on Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:44 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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tazdingo
Posts: 620

Re: Client Changelog 01/09/2018

Post#92 » Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:12 pm

Foomy44 wrote:
Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:46 pm
Honestly you get more AoE damage even as a healer by going mid tree for Scuse Me and new Gorks Barbs than you will by trying to use this aoe lifesteal as a bomb attack. Firestorm has 100+ range, had 100% uptime, does more damage, applies instantly, and doesn't need LoS so MUCH easier to use. Fury has 80 foot range so doubt you will be bombing the walls as easily as you think, 8 sec CD, 2 second cast time that breaks if u lose LoS, less damage, less potential targets, and slotting that tactic means you have to gear int so you will give up your whole healing mastery setup and all your healing potential just to get 1 crappy aoe attack for when you are bored at keep walls. I doubt this will lead to the gobbocalypse personally, guess we wait and see.
people like doing things that make them feel impactful in huge fights when in reality if you're not in a coordinated group or assist stack, your pew-pewing probably isn't really doing anything. that's why pulling is so popular, you can actually see the effect of your actions. it's why so many SMs and BOs constantly use their aoe punt for absolutely no reason, they just like that they actually did a thing. sure if you're sticking to your guard, assisting on the correct targets or keeping the heals coming, you're doing pretty much all you can to contribute to the bigger picture, but it can still often feel like you're doing nothing

so, big aoe things are always popular with pubbers, and shammies are just popular and now more flexible. is it crap? yes, it's awful, i didn't know about the 8 sec CD i'm still using the out of game career builder. but you can bet your ass people are still gonna do it cause it's a big explodey thing

ashton007
Posts: 159

Re: Client Changelog 01/09/2018

Post#93 » Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:22 am

Im guessing this new chosen/kobs mechanic is about to half their already non-existent damage?

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Brizio
Posts: 79

Re: Client Changelog 01/09/2018

Post#94 » Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:13 am

About AM Isha (healing spec), ive been testing the changes and the class is pretty bad now.

AM is the worst healer class when it comes to surviability (by far) and, as most healers do, we sacrifice EVERYTHING we have for defensive status, but we cant get close to their level on that. I run with 551 willpower without pot. Also, the AM/SHammy sets dont give us a lot of options as a lot of them are really bad hybrid sets (not like dok/WP that have even defensive genesis set).

The only good thing about AM when compared to other healers was that we would never run out of AP and we could heal 100% of the time. We had Wild Healing, at 50%, and we could use ap drain on a pet at any time.

With the last 2 patches the ap drain is over (it constantly get disrupted and we need to find someone with a blessing), the Wild Healing is nerfed to 35% and we have to sacrifice the master of tranquility (10% heal crit)/desperation or the last tatic for more ap and get EVEN WORSE heals.

Also, we had Mistress of the Marsh on the Isha path, wich gave us the choice to pick heal debuff or silence to help our party, and now we also dont have that because we are obligated to go Vaul for the skillit (its a really good skill) and isha gets a usuless knockback..

All that for 50% more heal on Funnel essence and a cleanse that forces us to use a tatic and dont cleanse Sorc bomb attack (the only one that reaaaalllyy needs a quick cleanse).

AM is squishy, it cant spam instant heals like RP/Zealot (we only haver 1 shot with Funnel Essence cause its a 10 sec cooldown) and now we have AP problems. It's a disaster.

I'm open for suggestion to make it better, cause right now a RP level 31 is more reliable than my 74 AM.
Last edited by Brizio on Sun Sep 02, 2018 5:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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catholicism198
Posts: 918

Re: Client Changelog 01/09/2018

Post#95 » Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:17 am

ashton007 wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:22 am
Im guessing this new chosen/kobs mechanic is about to half their already non-existent damage?
I was hoping it would actually be the opposite...wishful thinking... I guess I'll have to roll a witch hunter if I want to be melee dps. sucks.
Now I just have to wait a week until my character's name unlocks. :cry:

ashton007
Posts: 159

Re: Client Changelog 01/09/2018

Post#96 » Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:23 am

catholicism198 wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:17 am
ashton007 wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 2:22 am
Im guessing this new chosen/kobs mechanic is about to half their already non-existent damage?
I was hoping it would actually be the opposite...wishful thinking... I guess I'll have to roll a witch hunter if I want to be melee dps. sucks.
Now I just have to wait a week until my character's name unlocks. :cry:
Right... Never mind that there is a population of people that play 2h kobs/chosen lmao. I mean it might just be speculation idk if they have planned to buff the damage but I seriously doubt that. I just cant imagine how this works out in their favor damage-wise if were back to spamming buffs every 2-3 sec. Was barely doing any damage getting to spam ravage lmfao so ill play a BO now until I see the chosen changes (but I fear for the worst) I imagine playing BO wont last long and ill end up quitting until the chosen gets some damage love

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catholicism198
Posts: 918

Re: Client Changelog 01/09/2018

Post#97 » Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:39 am

No, it was just wishful thinking. WH isn't that bad... It's just not my preferred play style.
Maybe the server will come down for a hotfix and I'll be able to roll a WH sooner.

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Athergic
Posts: 276

Re: Client Changelog 01/09/2018

Post#98 » Sun Sep 02, 2018 6:01 am

Scourge is now harder hitting than boon of tzeentch, which is fine if that's intended. But for being in the middle of the tree I think it should hit at least a litter harder than scourge.
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Athergic
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Re: Client Changelog 01/09/2018

Post#99 » Sun Sep 02, 2018 6:09 am

Whats the point of outta my face burning rage? It makes me not want to use it in certain situations. I understand certain abilities are designed to exhaust rage, but on the aoe detaunt it doesn't make sense to me.

So I can't aoe detaunt and knock down a target, or use a finisher like cd increaser right after aoe detaunt, it just seems to cater to people who can't burn their rage properly and there are already many ways to do so.
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Ugle
Posts: 484

Re: Client Changelog 01/09/2018

Post#100 » Sun Sep 02, 2018 7:00 am

Brizio wrote:
Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:13 am
About AM Isha (healing spec), ive been testing the changes and the class is pretty bad now.

AM is the worst healer class when it comes to surviability (by far) and, as most healers do, we sacrifice EVERYTHING we have for defensive status, but we cant get close to their level on that. I run with 551 willpower without pot. Also, the AM/SHammy sets dont give us a lot of options as a lot of them are really bad hybrid sets (not like dok/WP that have even defensive genesis set).

The only good thing about AM when compared to other healers was that we would never run out of AP and we could heal 100% of the time. We had Wild Healing, at 50%, and we could use ap drain on a pet at any time.

With the last 2 patches the ap drain is over (it constantly get disrupted and we need to find someone with a blessing), the Wild Healing is nerfed to 35% and we have to sacrifice the master of tranquility (10% heal crit)/desperation or the last tatic for more ap and get EVEN WORSE heals.

Also, we had Mistress of the Marsh on the Isha path, wich gave us the choice to pick heal debuff or silence to help our party, and now we also dont have that because we are obligated to go Vaul for the skillit (its a really good skill) and isha gets a usuless knockback..

All that for 50% more heal on Funnel essence and a cleanse that forces us to use a tatic and dont cleanse Sorc bomb attack (the only one that reaaaalllyy needs a quick cleanse).

AM is squishy, it cant spam instant heals like RP/Zealot (we only haver 1 shot with Funnel Essence cause its a 10 sec cooldown) and now we have AP problems. It's a disaster.

I'm open for suggestion to make it better, cause right now a RP level 31 is more reliable than my 74 AM.
Wow your experiences is very different from mine.

Wild healing was very good, so good that you didnt even have to think about AP management. Kinda can understand it was nerfed a bit.

The blessing requirement hurts the AP drain, but the other rework makes up for it by far imo, instant Ap and blessing removal (except for pve purposes i guess)
Wonder how it works with aoe drain tactic? Anyone tested?

As for the heals the are only **** if you don't cast on mechanic. I am at about the same amount of WP.

AM is very squishy. If you slot armor tallies it will hurt your empowered heals. I have slotted wounds, toughness and armor talismans more balanced.

The only thing I miss is expanded control for faster lifetaps.
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