peterthepan3 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:24 pm
Melee SH isn't a ST DPS class: it's an AoE DPS/Utility spec, with minor ST capabilities. You can't honestly hope to beat a competent 2H tank in a 1v1/expect to do much damage without an armor debuff, and with the meh ST damage you have at your disposal.
so thats why
Battlefield wrote: ↑Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:19 am
idea is in Territorial Aggression tatic instead of +25% bonus dmg change to 25% armor penetration or 20% at least ...
even engi has addtitional buff with penetration and melee sw getting weapon skill +240 from wrist slash tactic and assault stance ...
or
Battlefield wrote: ↑Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:28 pm
main problem in phisical dmg cause 23 wepon skill not equal 164 armor talisman, 23ws gives 1,7% armor penetration and
164 gives 3,73% armor bonus so armor talismans give 2 times more stats
Hasn't been stated earlier in this thread you can't have everything?^^ melee squig is about aoe, mobility and annoying, if you want st-dmg you probably better as rdps (even though it's still hard to apply the armor debuff in an 1on1)
Pächter des Wahnsinns Gangan - SH 75 .... Blumnmoscha - BO 63
Scophis - Zealot 73 .... Drengur - WP 64
Iznogoud - Sham 50+ .... Bixo - Engie 50+
Apogemoth - Magus 40+ .... Loarelle - AM 65 originating from Drakenwald
Dude just run away. If you wanna kill tanks 1v1, play something else. Magus and engi can do it (takes a while still, and a weird, dumb build that is only good for 1v1, but it works against most), monstro mara can maybe do it (you may just end up fighting each other forever though), and witch hunter can definitely do it.
I question how often you even find 2h tanks solo, since rvr is all about the blob these days.
Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king!
GodlessCrom wrote: ↑Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:37 pm
Dude just run away. If you wanna kill tanks 1v1, play something else. Magus and engi can do it (takes a while still, and a weird, dumb build that is only good for 1v1, but it works against most), monstro mara can maybe do it (you may just end up fighting each other forever though), and witch hunter can definitely do it.
I question how often you even find 2h tanks solo, since rvr is all about the blob these days.
dont need to tell about other classes i have almost all 50-80rr just interesting melee sh now but patience can end once and i can quit him beacause of this
Nice try, the chosen and blorc block tactics are on a 10s ICD not 3 and have been for a LONG time. You also seem to be ommiting Votriolic Judgement.
Wait, you blame me that tooltips doesn't display proper information of abilities ? Regardless 3s or 10s its still morale boost gain tactic on a tank which you don't have on Order.
And why are you comparing morale boost gain tactics with morale drain tactic with 25% chance to proc with condition to hit from behind.
Compare it with this and tell me which one is better?
Cheers.
Fair point on the tooltips, it should have been done but the issue is there are 10 different language files and I speak english (badly) and if I change just english and call it a day all the other language files are wrong. So what I generally do is recreate the ability elsewhere, which will then just have a english entry then people can see its not in their language and can see something is "different" about it and its in a group block for when we get a language team translating.
Re Vitriolic Judgement and Crushing blows, thats all highly subjective, to go so deep into Monstro you are sacrificing other abilities which can serve your function as a DPS and are limited to specific attacks, WH is positional sure but they lose nothing from the core function of their role as a DPS.
Why did I mention the drain over the pump? Is it not clear? During Mythics design and their "ying/yang" structure they gave most pumps to destro and order received the counter in terms of reductions, same as knight mechanic was originally all team Buffs and chosens was all enemy debuffs, you can still see the "curse" identifiers in the chosen abilities. They actually had a lot more morale reductions before but they got changed because morale drains are for the most part invisible and most people playing in that role wont be able to know if they are even working or not as opposed to pumps which you can visually see in operation.
Regardless the chosen and blorc block pumps are on a 10s ICD which is still an advantage but the ICD means some thought has to go into whether its worth sacrificing that tactic slot and there are no more cases of solid immac cycling, well maybe there could be with WH/WE m2 and OYK/DG, go and see.
Please, look at that post. You changes all classes, we see many buffs for unplayable specs, but weak and useless offence Kotbs (Patch of conq) gets just hidden nerf.
Knight always had a choice - either more defense and control, or a powerful buff for the group, even in the absence of damage from the knight (that is, even considering the buff for the group it was weaker in attack than any other tank). Now you has taken away all the alternatives. I want the player to have the choice of either playing from attack (losing many of the tank's advantages) or playing solely from defense. All tanks have this choice. Except for the knight. If you took away a powerful buff for group from the offence knight - give it in exchange though any opportunity to attack himself, like a chosen. Now in plan of attack, it is inferior to any class in the game - not only tanks, but healers too. For example, note that the warrior priest is conceived as an impenetrable healer, but even to him you strengthened the attacking abilities, and now he is able to heal and at the same time cause more damage than the offence knight.
Nice try, the chosen and blorc block tactics are on a 10s ICD not 3 and have been for a LONG time. You also seem to be ommiting Votriolic Judgement.
Wait, you blame me that tooltips doesn't display proper information of abilities ? Regardless 3s or 10s its still morale boost gain tactic on a tank which you don't have on Order.
And why are you comparing morale boost gain tactics with morale drain tactic with 25% chance to proc with condition to hit from behind.
Compare it with this and tell me which one is better?
Cheers.
Fair point on the tooltips, it should have been done but the issue is there are 10 different language files and I speak english (badly) and if I change just english and call it a day all the other language files are wrong. So what I generally do is recreate the ability elsewhere, which will then just have a english entry then people can see its not in their language and can see something is "different" about it and its in a group block for when we get a language team translating.
Re Vitriolic Judgement and Crushing blows, thats all highly subjective, to go so deep into Monstro you are sacrificing other abilities which can serve your function as a DPS and are limited to specific attacks, WH is positional sure but they lose nothing from the core function of their role as a DPS.
Why did I mention the drain over the pump? Is it not clear? During Mythics design and their "ying/yang" structure they gave most pumps to destro and order received the counter in terms of reductions, same as knight mechanic was originally all team Buffs and chosens was all enemy debuffs, you can still see the "curse" identifiers in the chosen abilities. They actually had a lot more morale reductions before but they got changed because morale drains are for the most part invisible and most people playing in that role wont be able to know if they are even working or not as opposed to pumps which you can visually see in operation.
Regardless the chosen and blorc block pumps are on a 10s ICD which is still an advantage but the ICD means some thought has to go into whether its worth sacrificing that tactic slot and there are no more cases of solid immac cycling, well maybe there could be with WH/WE m2 and OYK/DG, go and see.
Thanks for wide answer.
Going deep into Monstro is a normal spec for any Marauder who wants to bring proper RvR spec into Warband and be most efficient, because that Mastery is focused fully on AoE abilities. This is currently best/most common WB Mara spec: RoR.builders - Marauder
So there is no issue for Marauder picking that tactic, while for WH moral drain tactic is not only in solo roaming mastery (Judgment is focused on ST abilities, while Confession was/is focused on AoE) but also is conditional and (since stripped from AoE again) much harder to reach same results that Mara can, who's gonna simply spam AoE and hit everything in front.
About Chosen, this is good spec for WB: RoR.builders - Chosen
As you see there is no problems with slotting that tactic in, and as so far (before last patch) how fast BO and Chosen reach m2 raze (which is/was most valuable morale2 in RvR fights) in comparison to Knight or SM was not so big difference but when pushing it into m3 the gap getting much wider and not to mention how much faster you reach m4 on Chosen and BO.
True that Cycling m4 is not an issue but time which side reach it 1st is a bit an issue.
About new WE/WH m2 sure will test it and see how effecting it is, although, i don't know if this is a proper way/playstyle for that class to be useful for group in RvR field. It sounds like "Hey guys, i'm gonna use my moral2 moral boost (instead 1200 damaging one) to boost your morale so you can kill stuff for me", it's almost like WE/WH gonna be some kinda BARD class.
And it's gonna be only role w/o proper AoE.
Wait, you blame me that tooltips doesn't display proper information of abilities ? Regardless 3s or 10s its still morale boost gain tactic on a tank which you don't have on Order.
And why are you comparing morale boost gain tactics with morale drain tactic with 25% chance to proc with condition to hit from behind.
Compare it with this and tell me which one is better?
Cheers.
Fair point on the tooltips, it should have been done but the issue is there are 10 different language files and I speak english (badly) and if I change just english and call it a day all the other language files are wrong. So what I generally do is recreate the ability elsewhere, which will then just have a english entry then people can see its not in their language and can see something is "different" about it and its in a group block for when we get a language team translating.
Re Vitriolic Judgement and Crushing blows, thats all highly subjective, to go so deep into Monstro you are sacrificing other abilities which can serve your function as a DPS and are limited to specific attacks, WH is positional sure but they lose nothing from the core function of their role as a DPS.
Why did I mention the drain over the pump? Is it not clear? During Mythics design and their "ying/yang" structure they gave most pumps to destro and order received the counter in terms of reductions, same as knight mechanic was originally all team Buffs and chosens was all enemy debuffs, you can still see the "curse" identifiers in the chosen abilities. They actually had a lot more morale reductions before but they got changed because morale drains are for the most part invisible and most people playing in that role wont be able to know if they are even working or not as opposed to pumps which you can visually see in operation.
Regardless the chosen and blorc block pumps are on a 10s ICD which is still an advantage but the ICD means some thought has to go into whether its worth sacrificing that tactic slot and there are no more cases of solid immac cycling, well maybe there could be with WH/WE m2 and OYK/DG, go and see.
Please, look at that post. You changes all classes, we see many buffs for unplayable specs, but weak and useless offence Kotbs (Patch of conq) gets just hidden nerf.
Knight always had a choice - either more defense and control, or a powerful buff for the group, even in the absence of damage from the knight (that is, even considering the buff for the group it was weaker in attack than any other tank). Now you has taken away all the alternatives. I want the player to have the choice of either playing from attack (losing many of the tank's advantages) or playing solely from defense. All tanks have this choice. Except for the knight. If you took away a powerful buff for group from the offence knight - give it in exchange though any opportunity to attack himself, like a chosen. Now in plan of attack, it is inferior to any class in the game - not only tanks, but healers too. For example, note that the warrior priest is conceived as an impenetrable healer, but even to him you strengthened the attacking abilities, and now he is able to heal and at the same time cause more damage than the offence knight.
Except Knight is arguably the Devs team best example of balancing a class. It was once hands down far and away the end all be all best tank in the game. They’ve slowly nerfed it in ways that help balance out all of its strengths without taking away what it brings to a group. Knights don’t need to do damage; not every class needs a viable DPS build. If you want to do damage roll a MDPS. It’s pretty simple.
After testing the changes and seeing the potential I have to say that this is a mess from order WB perspective and a big boost for destro.
We have really only had BW M2 as our clutch card to counter destro morale pumps and drains.
Destro had a big tank morale bomb, and the ability to drain order tanks, and front liners to nothing.
We countered it with an all or nothing early morale dump from BW which could break the front lines before the destro morale bomb hit.
But now that destro has fast sorc 2's, on top of drains it means that order can't really go toe to toe anymore. Order tanks and front line are shut down due to drains, destro tanks still have their morale bomb, and now they have sorc on top.
It is not even a matter of settling it with sorc m2 vs bw m2 since sorc will always win thanks to Mara drain.
Is there anyway possible we could get the mara drain back on the WL for WB play? At least even it out a bit more.
Right now balling up as an order WB is a death sentence while destro are free to do so as they please.
I realized my tone was a bit more negative than I wanted it to be so here is a bit of a rework.
I like the new morale abilities overall. They are a nice addition that help put some careers that really lacked a good morale option back into the fight. The engi M2 is a big confusing since it doesn't seem to have a channel animation so it is often hard to tell when it is firing which leads to many breaking it while moving, but with some tweaks it will be really nice for open warband play.
The WH / WE morale drains are interesting. They are useful but strange since you don't really want a paper melee without AoE in an AoE WB, for destro they don't really need WE since they have tanky Mara's already draining. For order it is interesting but not something many small scale WH will run.
But the Sorc Morale tactic, and for that matter the BW morale tactic are a big cause for concern. With fast sorc m2 now on the table I really feel this is going to further push towards heavy sorc comps. We already see this in order guild WB's where BW2 is mandatory if you want to run AoE bomb. I don't particularly feel it is good balance when it is better to stack 6-7 BW or Sorcs, than to have a varied WB, with only a few token utility bots, and everyone else crammed into P5.
As it stands the recent patch has really put the ball further into destro's court when it comes to WB balance, and I am not sure what exactly the overall goal is. Is the inclusion of sorc morale pump and an effect at mirroring faction tools? Can we hope to see things like Mara morale drain tactic mirrored to WL? or Zealot Punt to RP? Right now when it comes to AoE WB ball on ball fights, order simply can't play that game anymore. Is that the overall goal of the changes?
Manatikik wrote: ↑Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:53 pm
Except Knight is arguably the Devs team best example of balancing a class. It was once hands down far and away the end all be all best tank in the game. They’ve slowly nerfed it in ways that help balance out all of its strengths without taking away what it brings to a group. Knights don’t need to do damage; not every class needs a viable DPS build. If you want to do damage roll a MDPS. It’s pretty simple.
You don't seem to know. They already nerf the strongest buff for the group of offence knight. Tactic that increase the critical chance of a group for 10% now does not work with aura. It works from debuff Arcing Swing, so the buff is actually removed. Now offence knight does no damage, and does not give anything useful to the group. Any tank can play offence. Except for the knight. You call that balance? Yes, definitely a knight as a tank is very good, but why should this be his only choice?
Manatikik wrote: ↑Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:53 pm
Except Knight is arguably the Devs team best example of balancing a class. It was once hands down far and away the end all be all best tank in the game. They’ve slowly nerfed it in ways that help balance out all of its strengths without taking away what it brings to a group. Knights don’t need to do damage; not every class needs a viable DPS build. If you want to do damage roll a MDPS. It’s pretty simple.
You don't seem to know. They already nerf the strongest buff for the group of offence knight. Tactic that increase the critical chance of a group for 10% now does not work with aura. It works from debuff Arcing Swing, so the buff is actually removed. Now offence knight does no damage, and does not give anything useful to the group. Any tank can play offence. Except for the knight. You call that balance? Yes, definitely a knight as a tank is very good, but why should this be his only choice?
You’re right, a 2H Knight now brings nothing but a wounds debuff, crit chance debuff, long punt, 15% increased healing, guard, challenge, stacking armor debuff/champ challenge, two interrupts, aoe slow, knockdown, and AoE root. Oh wait he also has those Aura things too, huh? But yea he really doesn’t bring much to the party compared to other classes.
You realize how silly it is now to complain about knight being weak?
