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Patch Notes 19/01/2019

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Nidwin
Posts: 662

Re: Patch Notes 19/01/2019

Post#31 » Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:59 am

Torquemadra wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:38 pm
GodlessCrom wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:43 pm
Spoiler:
Nidwin wrote: Mon Jan 21, 2019 9:43 am For the record, just in case it has any value, or not.

1. Envenomed Blade was tested after the patch.
Tested on training dummies and NPC's. NPCs were Lost Souls (or so) in IC level 37-38 orange (non aggro) NPCs before Citadel.
Testing dummies damage = full damage (1 number)
NPC's damage = effective damage + mitigated damage ( first number + second number = full damage)

EB's damage was coherent with ingame EB's tooltip outside the usual variation. The usual variations are probably linked to rounding factors, outside the fixed forumula defining the tooltip numbers. (fixed numbers on tooltip vs dynamically calculated numbers in action)
Damage application -> initial damage + DoT ticks at 3-6-9s ; DoT tick ~= mentioned-tooltip-damage-for-DoT / 3.
The damage was fully coherent, no varaitions, between testing dummies and the above mentioned NPC's. The only observed variations were between tooltip and testing dummies-NPC's. I do consider those varations normal, as explained why above, and in acceptable range. Evenomed Blade's tooltip may be considered reliable.

2. Past variations between tooltips, testing dummies, NPCs and PC characters.
Past testing and combat logs check did provide non coherent results for mutliple skills and auto-attacks on hitting different aspects or characters with a Witch Elf.

After testing Evenomed Blade I did perform a small regression test on the following Witch Elf skills to check if the non coherent damage aspect was still present.
The test was performed on Testing Dummies and the above mentioned NPC's in front of IC's Citadel.

With Elf skills tested ;
Auto Attack
Agonizing Wound
Black Lotus Blade
Sacrificial Stab (stack of 5 Blood Lusts)
Puncture (stack of 5 Blood Lusts)
Heart Render Toxin (stack of 5 Blood Lusts)

The obtained damage values on testing dummies and the above mentioned IC NPC's were coherent during this test for the tested Witch Elf skills. Except Auto-attack as this can't be checked without knowing the exact formula, all tested skills showed the expected variations between ingame tooltip mentioned damage and the damage obtained in action. As it was for Evenomed Blade the nature of the observed variations during testing multiple Witch Elf skills can be explained by rounding factors and are in acceptable range.
The tooltips of the tested With Elf skills, including tested Evenomned Blade, can be considered reliable (mentioned damage) for Testing Dummies and the mentioned IC NPCs.

3. RvR combat logs and NPC logs
I regularly checked combat logs (NPCs and PCs), after the latest patch and the small performed test in IC, and didn't notice any "weird" anomalies for some of the tested With Elf skills related to the previous mentioned performed tests (auto-attack, AW, SS, HRT and Puncture). I did not pay attention to BLB or any other skills not involved in the previous test or Evenomed Blade (EB isn't part of my actual gameplay with my Witch Elf).
My Witch Elf's main hand AA showed a consistant 297 damage when not impacted by modifiers. This is coherent with the results obtained during the test on the IC training Dummies and NPC's.
The damage seen from AW, SS, HRT and Puncture in the checked logs was coherent with the tooltip mentioned damage, outside damage modifiers, with the expected varations explained earlier. Both NPC's (Dragonwake level 36 NPCs from 2 different PQ's) and player's controlled characters damage.

4. Still open as it wasn't tested, patch related changes for Witch Elf
Septic Blade + Evenomed Blade combination
Wracking Pains
Damage type change for Evenomed Blade and Wracking Pains

5. Still open question not directly related or included in patch
While Witch Elf auto-attack damage output seems now coherent between training dummies in IC, NPCs and player controlled character there's still the open question why the Witch Elf's auto-attack damage is lower than the damage of it's mirror the Witch Hunter outside modifiers.

Tested peformed and combat logs checked on Nidwincc 40rr55 -> 40rr57 Witch Elf.
What is the average weapon speed of the WH 1hers? And what is the average speed of the WE 1hers? WH might have slower weapons and so have bigger AA hits.
Off topic WEs missing a AA speed increase on live was likely an artifact of the fact that daggers initialy had crazy fast speeds, you can see still on things like the t4 Epic quest weapons with 1.5 speeds, now pretty much all the weapons are the same hence why MoM arrived.

On topic to Nidwin, AA damage is exactly the same between WH and WE, suggesting otherwise means you are flawed in your testing

WH 172 str 2x50 dps weapons 2.4 speed = 163 mainhand 128 offhand with 1k str 362 mainhand 218 offhand

WE 172 str 2x50 dps weapons 2.4 speed = 163 mainhand 128 offhand with 1k str 362 mainhand 218 offhand

Regarding tooltips, we dont have the EXACT damage formulas in place just yet, this will likely change very soon and tooltips should align unless you are sporting things like +damage buffs from abilities/tactics/procs/bonuses or melee/magic/ranged/heal power which Mythic never hooked into the tooltips.
And I'm nowhere close to 362 damage mainhand on my WE with Harbinger 57dps and MoR 53dps with ~1K Str + MP
I did not invent 297 damage mainhand as this is the consistant main hand damage I'm getting on Nidwincc (dummies, NPC's and PC's) If I recall well it's around 167 off hand damage but I wouldn't put my desert on that number. I do know I'm way below 200 damage on off hand.

I don't know why or what I'm doing wrong. I'm open to suggestions because I would certainly not pass on 20-25% more damage on my AA's on my WE's.

edit 1.

So there may be a damage reduction factor if you use faster daggers than what's consider base dagger speed of 2.4s. Interresting.
Last edited by Nidwin on Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Dammy095
Posts: 371

Re: Patch Notes 19/01/2019

Post#32 » Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:33 am

^ slower weapons hit harder, try with 2.4 speed weapns , which subj and titans are

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Nidwin
Posts: 662

Re: Patch Notes 19/01/2019

Post#33 » Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:12 am

That's actually very interresting and I wasn't aware of this. The reason why I was wondering where my damage was going. Thanks Dammy and Torq.
Nidwinqq used teabag Magus [Hysteria]

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Karast
Posts: 554

Re: Patch Notes 19/01/2019

Post#34 » Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:15 am

After testing the pet healing change in warband and roaming I must say it is a gut punch.

Even with the tankiest turret (flame) on engi it is impossible to keep it up for more than a second or two in WB play. Even slotting the junk wounds tactic, it simply dies too quickly and there are no tools to keep it alive from even just passive aoe spam.

It pretty much means that as an engi you are mechanic less for most of a fight, or constantly burning 55AP every 2-3 seconds to have a turret up. You never reach full mechanic, and there is nothing you can really do tactically to abate that.

Turrets / Daemons really need an overhaul. Their base stats are junk and simply haven't scaled at all to match player stats for later T4. This is even worse on engi where a good amount of the stat contribution they do get goes to WS.

They are the key mechanic, and are the focus of a great many tactics, but are easily 1 shot, or killed with junk AoE spam, and despite the many threads, and proposals. No one wants to give Engi / Magus a version of the loner tactic that SH/WL get. So we don't even have a choice to choose to run without them. We are simply forced to do so anyway.

It's now just another reason to prefer sorc / bw that doesn't really need to exist.

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anarchypark
Posts: 2073

Re: Patch Notes 19/01/2019

Post#35 » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:57 am

Karast wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:15 am After testing the pet healing change in warband and roaming I must say it is a gut punch.

Even with the tankiest turret (flame) on engi it is impossible to keep it up for more than a second or two in WB play. Even slotting the junk wounds tactic, it simply dies too quickly and there are no tools to keep it alive from even just passive aoe spam.

It pretty much means that as an engi you are mechanic less for most of a fight, or constantly burning 55AP every 2-3 seconds to have a turret up. You never reach full mechanic, and there is nothing you can really do tactically to abate that.

Turrets / Daemons really need an overhaul. Their base stats are junk and simply haven't scaled at all to match player stats for later T4. This is even worse on engi where a good amount of the stat contribution they do get goes to WS.

They are the key mechanic, and are the focus of a great many tactics, but are easily 1 shot, or killed with junk AoE spam, and despite the many threads, and proposals. No one wants to give Engi / Magus a version of the loner tactic that SH/WL get. So we don't even have a choice to choose to run without them. We are simply forced to do so anyway.

It's now just another reason to prefer sorc / bw that doesn't really need to exist.

100% uptime full stack was OP i think.
mechanics shouldn't be fire and forget.
that's why knight/chosen is OP.
stand near pet for 15sec is low price, specially in keep.
it was semi-OP, IMO. ( sorc/bw is also semi-OP in my book )

after you get full stack, how do opponents counter it?
you killed tanks easily b4 pets die. or b4 melees get close to you.
your dmg is still there, just have to pay attention for positioning, more than before.

full stack is hard to make, true.
i'm on half mechanic mostly.
sometimes fight without pet.
it requires player skill, i think, like BG/IB level.
instead of piano skill, it need high situational awareness.

kinda amazing this little change shifted balance.
i was preparing engie/magus OP reduction proposal.
in fact, still uncomfortable with ST burst.
but it's test time for now.
SM8, SW8, AM8, WL7, KoBS5, BW5, WP8, WH7, IB7, Eng5, RP5, SL6
BG8, Sorc8, DoK8, WE7, Chs8, Mg8, Ze7, Mara8, BO6, SH7, Shm5, Chop4
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RuffRyder
Posts: 330
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Re: Patch Notes 19/01/2019

Post#36 » Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:26 am

While I agree on Karast mostly, we still have different situations to consider imho.

See, as an Engi you are used to redeploying your turret in open field, so Well-Oiled Machine is mandatory imho.
Furthermore the focus when roaming isn't to keep up your 8x stack, but to use the appropriate turret depending on situtation, e.g. Gun when engaging from backline, Bombardment when kiting (yes, I still say Engineers can be mobile) or Flame when engaged/surprised.

Neither a turret nor a daemon should be able to survive a warband-scale (stacked) AoE or melee train.

Keep fights are a totally different story: The turret dies after 2 or often even 1 hit from an AoE cannon, so unless you are constantly redeploying it you can't keep up your range to even shoot oil spots or defenders.
Vice versa when defending they die to AoE from Sorc/Magi, while daemons do the same way to e.g. BW AoE, way too quick imho.

I believe there will be a solution.
Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience. (Mark Twain)

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aa91837
Posts: 106

Re: Patch Notes 19/01/2019

Post#37 » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:55 pm

anarchypark wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:57 am
Karast wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:15 am After testing the pet healing change in warband and roaming I must say it is a gut punch.

Even with the tankiest turret (flame) on engi it is impossible to keep it up for more than a second or two in WB play. Even slotting the junk wounds tactic, it simply dies too quickly and there are no tools to keep it alive from even just passive aoe spam.

It pretty much means that as an engi you are mechanic less for most of a fight, or constantly burning 55AP every 2-3 seconds to have a turret up. You never reach full mechanic, and there is nothing you can really do tactically to abate that.

Turrets / Daemons really need an overhaul. Their base stats are junk and simply haven't scaled at all to match player stats for later T4. This is even worse on engi where a good amount of the stat contribution they do get goes to WS.

They are the key mechanic, and are the focus of a great many tactics, but are easily 1 shot, or killed with junk AoE spam, and despite the many threads, and proposals. No one wants to give Engi / Magus a version of the loner tactic that SH/WL get. So we don't even have a choice to choose to run without them. We are simply forced to do so anyway.

It's now just another reason to prefer sorc / bw that doesn't really need to exist.

100% uptime full stack was OP i think.
mechanics shouldn't be fire and forget.
that's why knight/chosen is OP.
stand near pet for 15sec is low price, specially in keep.
it was semi-OP, IMO. ( sorc/bw is also semi-OP in my book )

after you get full stack, how do opponents counter it?
you killed tanks easily b4 pets die. or b4 melees get close to you.
your dmg is still there, just have to pay attention for positioning, more than before.

full stack is hard to make, true.
i'm on half mechanic mostly.
sometimes fight without pet.
it requires player skill, i think, like BG/IB level.
instead of piano skill, it need high situational awareness.

kinda amazing this little change shifted balance.
i was preparing engie/magus OP reduction proposal.
in fact, still uncomfortable with ST burst.
but it's test time for now.
A: Revert back to patch 1.4.8 all Azarael's(ex-dev) magus/engi changes

B: Reduce max stacks from pet/turret from 8 to 4 ,Reduce increased damage per stack from pet/turret from 5% to 2.5%
Nobody on the broken noob class

mogt
Posts: 480

Re: Patch Notes 19/01/2019

Post#38 » Sat Jan 26, 2019 8:17 am

i hope you know, the visual buff is x8 but the max damage is 20 % in previous patches the devs wrote that

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abodam
Posts: 128

Re: Patch Notes 19/01/2019

Post#39 » Sat Jan 26, 2019 8:51 am

Are we really suggesting nerfing Eng/Magus?
Magus / BG

mubbl
Posts: 277

Re: Patch Notes 19/01/2019

Post#40 » Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:11 am

mogt wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 8:17 am i hope you know, the visual buff is x8 but the max damage is 20 % in previous patches the devs wrote that
Which one? Can you cite it?
Spoiler:
anarchypark wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:57 am
100% uptime full stack was OP i think.
mechanics shouldn't be fire and forget.
that's why knight/chosen is OP.
stand near pet for 15sec is low price, specially in keep.
it was semi-OP, IMO. ( sorc/bw is also semi-OP in my book )

after you get full stack, how do opponents counter it?
you killed tanks easily b4 pets die. or b4 melees get close to you.
your dmg is still there, just have to pay attention for positioning, more than before.

full stack is hard to make, true.
i'm on half mechanic mostly.
sometimes fight without pet.
it requires player skill, i think, like BG/IB level.
instead of piano skill, it need high situational awareness.

kinda amazing this little change shifted balance.
i was preparing engie/magus OP reduction proposal.
in fact, still uncomfortable with ST burst.
but it's test time for now.
conisdering the fact you have to stay in thirty feed range and st works fine on pets, which class isnt op in your book then?

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