gotharg wrote: ↑Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:29 pm
DPS Shaman impossible to kill? Atm when WL have shitton of dmg + 10s unbreakable on dmg root and WH have 50% speed, and all tanks are OP bc high dmg and hardiness at the same time. On live Shaman was "can opener". Here only nerfs for shaman. 1 - QE + RUN AWAY! dont stack. 2 - detaunt changes. 3 - Sticky Feetz at 9 pt.
1) WL is a frontloaded burst class; it should have a 'shitton of dmg'
2) 10s 'unbreakable' root can actually be broken with Morale 2 Focused Mind
3) 50% speed which locks you out of using other Seals
4) You appropriately seem to have forgotten the Brain Bursta BoW addition, as well as the extra DoT that was given to Shaman.
If youre dying to any order tank as a shaman, I dunno what to tell you. Maybe back in the glory days of disrupthammer with Avalanchebreaker, but come on now. If anything, they cant ever catch you if you dont want em to.
Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king!
rmpl wrote: ↑Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:33 am
Go and watch the recent 6v6 tourney videos and count how many tanks used shields. Tanks can go semi-dps while also being semi-tanky, the only time you should put on a shield and go deftard is big scale ORVR. If those "dps tanks" die it means you either got severely outplayed with CC, your heals suck or the 2nd tank was slacking on the guard.
expand your view about tank.
6man is only small part of war.
dps tanks can't do funnel,
can't hold nor penetrate it without real tank.
controlling mobs furthermore battle field are tanks role.
half tanks are just half.
Sulorie wrote: ↑Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:59 am
Indeed, for all but rvr aoe spam, 2h tanks do their jobs similar or better than shield tanks. Shield is then again better for pve.
Dps healers on the other hand have abysmal low healing and can't fill half a healer slot. When you see some scoreboards with relatively high healing values and doubt this statement, then you don't seem to get the full picture.
who cares scoreboard.
it doesn't show important things.
if you know healer, it's about when to use what skill.
group heal spam for fluff aoe = good numbers, bad performance.
how many dps healers doing rez?
probably that's close number of good half healer.
rest are so focused on dps abandoning healer part.
same as dps tanks.
again, except good players. they're so rare.
The moment a 'healer archetype' specs to be offensive/damage dealer is when they should no longer be considered a healer (once you accept this then I promise you that your PuG SC experiences will not be so full of anger & frustration).
You can't both damage and heal effectively in a competitive environment. Can you throw out the occasional HoT/group heal? Sure! Is it effective? Not really. It's also a damage loss: every GCD you spend healing your team equates to no DPS. If your team are competent, you should rarely (if ever) have to waste GCDs on healing - having the instarez on standby as one of the unique tools a DPS AM/Shaman bring to a group. Being able to rez is more utility than anything else, i.e. it isn't 'healing' in and of itself.
Tanks, on the other hand, still have access to Guard and Challenge, and regardless of how you invest your stats/what path you take, these skills stay the same (50% damage reduction, 30% damage reduction for realm mates). Even in offensive gear/spec, you can have a decent amount of parry, which will allow you to mitigate a lot of incoming damage for both you and your guarded teammate (not all, which is where block & SNB has its uses). Access to morales like Immaculate Defense, Distracting Bellow and Champion's Challenge - even when offensive - further support this. In comparison, DPS 'healers' will only really have access to Divine Favor - which means no Focused Mind (which is a no-no in most competitive environments).
@ Sulorie
Good point, but I would say that this facilitates to melee groups in RvR moreso than anywhere else (which tends to be dominated by ranged classes and kite groups). It allows melee some 'equal footing', and gives them some time to try and secure a kill before the ranged can thwart their efforts entirely via M2.
peterthepan3 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 29, 2019 5:09 pm
You can't both damage and heal effectively in a competitive environment. Can you throw out the occasional HoT/group heal? Sure! Is it effective? Not really. It's also a damage loss: every GCD you spend healing your team equates to no DPS. If your team are competent, you should rarely (if ever) have to waste GCDs on healing - having the instarez on standby as one of the unique tools a DPS AM/Shaman bring to a group. Being able to rez is more utility than anything else, i.e. it isn't 'healing' in and of itself.
Im my personal opinion, dps healers should lose the capability to rez all together for some small boosts in other areas. Bringing a dps healer with a rez makes the fight incredibly cancerous, long and annoying if they have the slightest opportunity to rez a dead team mate or rez a healer you just killed. Sure, you're winning, but it's just highly annoying and really not something a dps should ever have access to.
The moment a 'healer archetype' specs to be offensive/damage dealer is when they should no longer be considered a healer (once you accept this then I promise you that your PuG SC experiences will not be so full of anger & frustration).
You can't both damage and heal effectively in a competitive environment. Can you throw out the occasional HoT/group heal? Sure! Is it effective? Not really. It's also a damage loss: every GCD you spend healing your team equates to no DPS. If your team are competent, you should rarely (if ever) have to waste GCDs on healing - having the instarez on standby as one of the unique tools a DPS AM/Shaman bring to a group. Being able to rez is more utility than anything else, i.e. it isn't 'healing' in and of itself.
Tanks, on the other hand, still have access to Guard and Challenge, and regardless of how you invest your stats/what path you take, these skills stay the same (50% damage reduction, 30% damage reduction for realm mates). Even in offensive gear/spec, you can have a decent amount of parry, which will allow you to mitigate a lot of incoming damage for both you and your guarded teammate (not all, which is where block & SNB has its uses). Access to morales like Immaculate Defense, Distracting Bellow and Champion's Challenge - even when offensive - further support this. In comparison, DPS 'healers' will only really have access to Divine Favor - which means no Focused Mind (which is a no-no in most competitive environments).
@ Sulorie
Good point, but I would say that this facilitates to melee groups in RvR moreso than anywhere else (which tends to be dominated by ranged classes and kite groups). It allows melee some 'equal footing', and gives them some time to try and secure a kill before the ranged can thwart their efforts entirely via M2.
guard challenge from dps tank?
cleans, shield, HoT and rez from dps heal.
all core skills.
off spec's half main role.
it's hard
cuz as soon as you try main role, your dmg is going low.
running around for guard swap,
positioning to target as many as possible for challenge,
looking for low hp to shield and cleans,
all result in low dps.
my point is
dsp tanks are not doing both role simultaneously.
they switch roles like stance switch.
good players do it smoothly,
bads stick to only half.
i'm strongly against 'dps tanks are tanks' theory. they're half tank.
it goes same to dps healer.
Peter is talking about 6v6, whereas Onesword is talking mostly about pugging in rvr/sc. Peter is 100% correct about 2h tanks in 6v6, they are tanks first and damage second (though the damage they is not insignificant). But thats cuz they have guaranteed heals, competent dps, another tank they know will guardswap, etc.
In pugs, everything is dumb and so sometimes that 2h IB has to Volgo up and charge the backline while his dumb ass order melee dps fight that SnB chosen like their life depends on it, hoping the destro healers have an aneurysm and run away instead of fighting.
But you cant balance around dumb pug situations, fun as they can be (5 piece dominator is hilarious fun on Ironbreaker and Swordmaster in the pug sc, can confirm) and in group situations, 2h tank is far more a tank than a dps shaman is a healer. Especially with how tanky most 2h tanks can be when specced and geared proper.
Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king!
