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Patch Notes 09/02/2019

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Tesq
Posts: 5704

Re: Patch Notes 09/02/2019

Post#81 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:22 am

if choppa pull recive a min range the results would be the class be able to pull only second liners behind the tanks front/first line....(plus choppa aoe pull have a lower max range than mara/pull).

that would be a buff....image ignore all the tanks and pull all slayers and bw in the middle of aoe...
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Ysaran
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Re: Patch Notes 09/02/2019

Post#82 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:22 am

hammerhead wrote: Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:43 pm
Ysaran wrote: Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:11 pm i think that balance is a problem of the devs, not our. we, as player, can provide feedback, which need to be supported by number, video and every other proofs we can provide to support our thesis but then are the devs the one that will take decisions.
What you say makes no sense at all. If the balance does not have any rules and principles, then asking for numbers has no meaning.

Honestly, I don't care about the balance, only the blind will not see how the desi passes through order like a knife through butter for the past six months. I just didn’t like how the two of you aggressively attacked the guy who asked a very logical question and never offended anyone.
Sulorie wrote: Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:27 pm Did I just read, that SW melee tree is trash?
For sure! I read the same thing with a page earlier about Choppa AOE tree ... prove by numbers the opposite.
First of all i want to apologize to you, since my intention was not to be aggrssive, but just a bit sarcastic.
that said, what i'm trying to say is that there is no magic fromula for balance, if it there exist and the devs have it then the game wuold be completely balanced right now. the simple fact that devs reverted back some change in the past is the proof of the fact that they are just taking the game through a process of trying and error. our feedback are necessary to let them understand if a change is an error or not, but every feedback need to be supporte by evidence (which are numbers, video, screenshot and so on).
call me a blind, but i have not perceived the last six month in your same way. sometime i won, sometime i lose, as always.
CountTalabecland wrote: Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:21 pm
Spoiler:
Ysaran wrote: Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:11 pm
hammerhead wrote: Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:40 pm


Well, the point is that I, too, don’t know how these or other changes appear in classes. I also did not read any rules on this, but I would love to. And the BG was just an example. Let's ask the developers to give some basis so that such disputes no longer arise?

For example, how many Pulls should be on each side at all, because right now the destruction has one more.
As an offer solely for the sake of experimentation, to give GTDC to the SW Assault Stance (which can be considered a trash tree as the least used).

It will be interesting to know the opinion of destruction when a "fun skill" will be directed against them.
i think that balance is a problem of the devs, not our. we, as player, can provide feedback, which need to be supported by number, video and every other proofs we can provide to support our thesis but then are the devs the one that will take decisions. i cant say how removing GTDC will change the balance between factions (because this is what matter, this isnt a 1v1 game, but a MMORPG) and probably the devs cant too. the balance have no rule, there are no criteria, only try and error approach. this kind of dispute NEED to arise because otherway there will be no feedback, no grow. i think there is no bias in the dev's action, if choppa pull is as it is now is just because the past year maked clear that this is the right way to go. in the past 6 month there wasn'nt any major change about choppa/slayer because the two classes are already balanced, and this should be clear since the dev's release a post on the forum (in september/october if i remember well) with the plans for the future balance and inside the post choppa/slayer were barely mentioned.
CountTalabecland wrote: Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:47 pm
Spoiler:
There probably doesn’t need to be a minimum range on rdps pulls as they aren’t trying to melee people. I guess they could still drop it on the frontline in order to interrupt but at least that still requires a rdps to wander into melee range which is risky. Pulls for melee classes are a huge advantage because they dont need to close the distance with people running away in order to attack. That said, Choppa pull isn’t random when there is only 1 person in range to pull. This especially doesn’t matter in 1v1 or small grp fights in scens when you are in melee range because you can be pretty damn certain that the person within 5ft of you is going to get pulled. Thus why when I read the patch notes I thought to myself, “hey that ‘hard cc’ sounds like what Choppas do when they spam GTDC in melee range.” Whether or not this should be a 13 point ability is debatable. If the ability being changed to have a minimum range “ruins” the tree, then isn’t that admitting that using the ability in melee range is what made it good to begin with?

I wasn’t saying that all pulls need to have a minimum range, only for melee classes that have pulls as everyone knows that a melee class being able to ignore distance (i.e. pounce) and keep people in melee range is a very powerful tool. Where as rdps don’t generally want people right on top of them in melee range so using the pull is a trade off of group utility and risk.
i agree that pull and pounce are really powerfull ability, and surelly the pull is the main reason why ppl take GTDC i can admit it easilly, the reasons of this are trivial! the reason are trivial because GTDC last 6 second, deal damage every 2 second (for 400 damage more or less) and cover an area of 40 feet radious. if you diminsh the area of effect (of 30% as said by you, which are 12 feet) you will have an ability which deal no damage in a negligible area which can be interrupted, have 30 seconds of CD and cost 14 pt on a mastery tree which dont have nothing more to offer. i dont want to say that GTDC cant be touched, but if you want to dimish is area of effect you need to give something in exchange or to nerf the slayer too. the ability isn't spammable because of CD and often i'm not able the end the channeling because i'm interrupted. i dont even use GTDC because it last 6 seconds only namely since everyone try to interrupt the same second you click the button. if you nerf the pulling power of GTDC you will have an ability which is less usefull then "wild choppin" or "bring it on" that require both zero pt investment
I do not mean to “diminish” it. I am saying that it should have a minimum (12ft, maybe 10 for a nice clean number) distance like the other two melee pull abilities so that it would operate from 12-40 ft as mara/wl now operates 20-65 which is the same ratio. Like Mara/WL you would then have a interruptable channel while moving melee pull with a minimum range. Maybe that isn’t worth the 13 point investment but that just means the investment amount req should change, not the mechanic of how the ability works.

Just saying that if the intent of the WL/Mara change was to prevent mdps from using pulls as hard cc in melee range, then as it stands Choppa can still use a pull in melee range as hard cc. If WL/Mara got changed bc the way the pull was working was not as intended, why should the Choppa one still work that way?
Edit: Not against Choppa being reworked. My original greivance here was that this requires WL/Mara to change the way they play but not Choppa even though Choppa can also do the same thing that got changed for Mara/WL.
ok, i get your point, but to give the ability a minimum radious means to dimish his area of effect, so the area in which you deal damage. i already said why i think choppa is an exeption. moreover there is the fact that
Tesq wrote: Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:22 am if choppa pull recive a min range the results would be the class be able to pull only second liners behind the tanks front/first line....(plus choppa aoe pull have a lower max range than mara/pull).

that would be a buff....image ignore all the tanks and pull all slayers and bw in the middle of aoe...
which is a cool point of view but it wuold only be a trade off since choppa would lose utility in small scale and gain utility in large scale
Last edited by Ysaran on Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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hammerhead
Posts: 308

Re: Patch Notes 09/02/2019

Post#83 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:20 am

Ysaran wrote: Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:22 am which is a cool point of view but it wuold only be a trade off since choppa would lose utility in small scale and gain utility in large scale
I see it every day. This brainless tactic will put АОЕ on the head of the choppа and rip the order from a safe distance with impunity. Not that the order did not have a tool for an answer at all, but RVR is not a 6x6 composition and there is no such degree of coordination, and in this interpretation this ability leaves a very small window for reaction.

By the way, I also want to apologize, re-read the path notes and of course BG does not have any boost by 30%. 1% for ten hate is 10%, but this is already a large amount for a class that has been repeatedly described by players as very balanced with respect to its direct competitor. Nevertheless, the class continues to revise and revise whereas in the proposals section there are unanswered IB posts.

And of course, going to the forum with the question why everything is so and not otherwise, the least you expect to receive in return is sarcasm.

All good!
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peterthepan3
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Re: Patch Notes 09/02/2019

Post#84 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:37 am

hammerhead wrote: Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:40 pm
For example, how many Pulls should be on each side at all, because right now the destruction has one more.
As an offer solely for the sake of experimentation, to give GTDC to the SW Assault Stance (which can be considered a trash tree as the least used).

It will be interesting to know the opinion of destruction when a "fun skill" will be directed against them.
Destruction may have access to one more pull, but Order has access to 3 forms of pounce/insta gap closer: WL Pounce, ASW SS, & SM M2 WoH. Point being that looking at things in a vacuum would lead many to believe that balance is all over the place (when, in reality, it's not).

(Also: MSW trash??!)
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hammerhead
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Re: Patch Notes 09/02/2019

Post#85 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:25 am

peterthepan3 wrote: Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:37 am (Also: MSW trash??!)
This was said with an eye to the similar phrase thrown against the choppa aoe tree.

And to be literal, I wrote that the least used. As an example of yesterday's Praag. See the class is so popular that for all the WB one SW. I did not look at his buffs, but from the experience of the game on the front line, I strongly doubt that he has anything but pew pew build.

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peterthepan3
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Re: Patch Notes 09/02/2019

Post#86 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:40 am

hammerhead wrote: Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:25 am
peterthepan3 wrote: Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:37 am (Also: MSW trash??!)
This was said with an eye to the similar phrase thrown against the choppa aoe tree.

And to be literal, I wrote that the least used. As an example of yesterday's Praag. See the class is so popular that for all the WB one SW. I did not look at his buffs, but from the experience of the game on the front line, I strongly doubt that he has anything but pew pew build.

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SW as a whole has issues in warband play, but that doesn't negate from the fact that Assault is a viable & potent spec for 6v6.
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DanielWinner
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Re: Patch Notes 09/02/2019

Post#87 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:42 am

hammerhead wrote: Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:25 am
peterthepan3 wrote: Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:37 am (Also: MSW trash??!)
This was said with an eye to the similar phrase thrown against the choppa aoe tree.

And to be literal, I wrote that the least used. As an example of yesterday's Praag. See the class is so popular that for all the WB one SW. I did not look at his buffs, but from the experience of the game on the front line, I strongly doubt that he has anything but pew pew build.

Image
ASW is mostly used in small scale and SCs. It has no use in RvR for real and other range builds are too weak for that scale.
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Sulorie
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Re: Patch Notes 09/02/2019

Post#88 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:07 am

hammerhead wrote: Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:25 am
This was said with an eye to the similar phrase thrown against the choppa aoe tree.
And those, who say that, are right. The main reason to spec choppa aoe tree is the pull. The aoe snare is just bad and the cooldown decrease is nice but only shines in very special setups, so it is more or less for premade play with certain group compositions.
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hammerhead
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Re: Patch Notes 09/02/2019

Post#89 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:22 pm

peterthepan3 wrote: Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:40 am SW as a whole has issues in warband play, but that doesn't negate from the fact that Assault is a viable & potent spec for 6v6.
DanielWinner wrote: Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:42 am ASW is mostly used in small scale and SCs. It has no use in RvR for real and other range builds are too weak for that scale.

This is a very expected answer. Moreover, Ysaran above has practically said it. I just did not want to spin the topic.

When asked about the limit pull min radus, the counter argument was that the Choppa would lose in a small environment. In AOE tree?
It turns out that Сhoppа can be equally good at 6х6 and in RVR without leaving one build and others not. Of course, from the outside it looks like a game with only one goal.
In addition, most people are motivated precisely by the effectiveness of the class. They see Choppas everywhere pull people under the AOE and think it's cool to play for this side she has more cookies!
And then we are surprised at the numerical imbalance in the fractions.

Let's end this conversation. I responded more on the very style of communication, and not the meaning. Devs have vision of project, and we need patience not to turn the forum into a trash.
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Ysaran
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Re: Patch Notes 09/02/2019

Post#90 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:40 pm

hammerhead wrote: Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:22 pm
peterthepan3 wrote: Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:40 am SW as a whole has issues in warband play, but that doesn't negate from the fact that Assault is a viable & potent spec for 6v6.
DanielWinner wrote: Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:42 am ASW is mostly used in small scale and SCs. It has no use in RvR for real and other range builds are too weak for that scale.

This is a very expected answer. Moreover, Ysaran above has practically said it. I just did not want to spin the topic.

When asked about the limit pull min radus, the counter argument was that the Choppa would lose in a small environment. In AOE tree?
It turns out that Сhoppа can be equally good at 6х6 and in RVR without leaving one build and others not. Of course, from the outside it looks like a game with only one goal.
In addition, most people are motivated precisely by the effectiveness of the class. They see Choppas everywhere pull people under the AOE and think it's cool to play for this side she has more cookies!
And then we are surprised at the numerical imbalance in the fractions.

Let's end this conversation. I responded more on the very style of communication, and not the meaning. Devs have vision of project, and we need patience not to turn the forum into a trash.
just for your info: choppa is the lesser played class in the game. tank think that choppa is so useless that they dont even care to put guard on me. no one come to destro for choppa pull and stay. when they see how it work and how much you have to sacrifice to have the pull they usually come back to play thei first class.
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