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Patch Notes 23/03/2019

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Nortard
Posts: 7

Re: Patch Notes 23/03/2019

Post#231 » Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:37 pm

About guard change.

1. The problem is, as far as i understand, that SnB tanks are underrepresented in small scale? Honestly, i don't think this comes from 2H tanks dealing more damage, but from the fact that SnB builds rarely offer more utility than 2H builds. SnB KotBS, for example, only have one unique thing going for them - Dirty Tricks, and it's not even that good anymore.

2. As it was mentioned before, 2H tank != DPS tank. You can build tank with 2H very tanky, and you can build SnB tank as glass cannon. Equipment type does not always represent your build, so tying it to something else might be a better solution.

3. I am very disappointed about how this update is handled, hard to believe that no one on dev team could predict such outrage. There are a lot of people playing with 2H builds, and when you straight up nerf them - they are not going to like it. In a perfect world, a thread would have been created by CM beforehand, in which he woulds say something like: "Hey guys, we are going to try something interesting next weekend, fiddle with it for a bit and send us your feedback". Instead players got: "Here's the patch, deal with it, and i hope that you got 1H and shield somewhere in your bag, cause you're gonna need it".

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scatterthewinds
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Re: Patch Notes 23/03/2019

Post#232 » Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:46 pm

Yaliskah wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2019 5:55 pm Ok here we go.

Since the begining of this project we are testing, changing and keeping and removing changes in term of balance.

Purpose is always the same, bringing as much as possible balance to the game. Sometime change against all odds is good, sometime it is not. But fact is, nothing is engraved in the stone.

Server has been patched what.. 4 hours ago, and even some haven't tested anything,some complain, some rejoice, some don't see the reason, some understand the motive.

This test -cause like any change it is a test first- don't come from nowhere and is motivated by players feedbacks complaining that SnB are useless compared with 2H cause tankiness and general archetype tools are not really impacted in facts when DPS is demultiplied and tools even they can be different are still usefull for the group. I personally share this, and have played Snd and 2H tank in smallscale, and lets be honest, i see no advantage to play a SnB tank, excpet in Dungeons OR to Funnel/siege, which is very situationnal...

I guess no one expect that a DPS Healer for exemple heal as much as a pure Heal. We all know the story and the river of tears about this (DOK, WP, AM, Shaman...). When a DPS heal use his basic archetype, heals are divied /2. Thats a player choice, and no one coplains about it (except those you play with in scenario).

For the same reason, I don't see why a DPS tank would have 100% access to his basic tool, and as for for the heal divide guard /2 seems to be fair.

Now, lets put a little perspective in this. Guard hasn't been removed to 2H. It has been halved. Which means, they will absorb less damages from the target they will guard (50/50 > 75/25). Good thing for the player hmself, let received damage, more survivability.

To conclude. There is no crusade against anyone. There is even no realm balance issue. There is in my very honnest opinion some leverage given to SnB tanks vs 2H tanks in term of defensive tools for the group.

To conclude part 2 : Please stay cool and civilised, we can make mistakes, and our purpose is to make the game better not worse in the end. So concrete feedbacks are welcome more than over-reactions :).
Thank you for being brave enough to post your reasoning.

A lot of terminology is being thrown around so lets clarify this:

What is a 2h tank? A 2h tank is being used synonymously with dps-tank or off-tank and that isn't true at all. The tactics, gear set and talismans define whether a tank is going to be offensive or defensive, not the weapon they hold. The entire purpose of the WEAPON as a tank is to unlock or lock certain abilities. I'll use BG as an example. Your choices when holding a weapon are: Crimson death + reliable 3s kd + 10s cd punt vs Block Channel + unreliable 5s kd + 20s cd punt + hold the line. Other classes like SM/BO have 2h specific tactics that can be unlocked but you aren't forced to spec them. Apart from block chance and hold the line vs 2h parry strikethrough it has no bearing on whether you're going to be offensive or defensive. You can run a tanky 2h or an offensive s/b through tactics. With the exception of SM/BO, tanks dont significantly contribute offensively through raw tooltip damage regardless of their spec. Dont let scenario numbers fool you, a lot of tank damage is fluff damage and irrelevant, like kobs/chosen damage auras or AOE of other tanks. The offensive contribution of tanks comes through abilities usually unlocked by 2h. For example you can run a max parry high armor high toughness BG that holds a 2h so he can use crimson death. It won't hit for much, but the crit effect and possibly wounds debuff effect is still applied. But that BG would still be tanky. Up until this patch there was a skill involved playing the offensive tank slot, where the player playing that party slot would have to balance offense and defense. Too much offense slotted and you're a liability defensively, and too much defense and your party will struggle to kill things against other good parties.

The problem with S/B tanks is that someone in the development team erroneously transferred most of the useful utility to 2h only builds. BG didn't use to have a 2h kd. BO channel attack used to not have a 2h restriction. Punt cooldown used to not be affected by whether 2h or shield. There was a misguided effort to harmonize all tanks to be as similar to each other as possible and in the end the 2hers reaped all the rewards.

So now we have an issue of S+B lacking a purpose.
First, I contest this somewhat. Hold the line and block chance and block-proced abilities are no small loss. Every time I'm in a narrow area or in a fort or in a warband+ fight I much prefer the shield. Its why I carry a shield and 1-her at all times in inventory so I can change easily. I don't benefit from a full mastery or renown respect but at least I have hold the line. Every time I'm in a WB I go to the trainer and spend FIVE entire gold to respec for s/b. I see nearly all other WB tanks using shields. Its the same thing as DPS reskilling for AOE or ST. Different specs for different situations. It doesn't make one useless. It actually depends entirely on perspective. Its the same situation with tanks. Different setups for different situations. Players that play in WB would probably have a shield at all times and players that play scenarios and anything from 3-12 man would run 2h for the extra offense. As explained above 2h absolutely does not mean you're running some solo suicidal spec.

Second, lets assume that you were right in that statement. I can't fathom how you logically concluded that the correct course of action would be nerf 2h tanks. Would it not be more reasonable to simply increase the utility of s/b tanks? A subtle but useful change would be to simply reverse the punt CDs... 10s for s/b and 20s for 2h. Or alternatively in the case of BG instead of a block needed for their 5sec kd change it to simply "requires a shield". A twist of a screwdriver instead of slamming it with a meteor.

But instead you change guard, the most iconic and stable mechanic in warhammer. First and foremost, before any abilities are cast, before weapons or specs are chosen the role of any tank is to guard. Remove or nerf that than you call into question the reason for even inviting a tank to the party at all. Instead of a 2h tank why not run a 3rd dps? 1 s/b chosen/kobs for the auras and stagger, 1 mdps beside the tank, and 2 rdps way in the back. Lets get over a long-standing myth that offensive tanks pump out comparable dps to an actual dps class. They do not. With SM/BO its arguable but you have to recognize how squishy those classes are...they dont have cc imunities, they dont have charge, they dont have detaunt. Offensive SM/BO exist and work because there is a 2nd more defensive tank in the party to guard THEM if they get focused. Any dps class is better suited to dps than an off tank. An off-tank works because in small scale you need a bit of offensive pressure from one of the tanks to get kills. ~90% comes from the dps and that final 10%, the difference between killing someone or not, comes from the off tank. But the off-tank is still guarding, he is still mitigating 50% of incoming damage to one person, of which he parries about 30-60%. He is still there to swap guard in chase the defensive tank is punted. His core purpose (guard) is still the primary concern.

So you're a tank player, you just spent 2 months getting your BG to rr80, you're happy and ready to blow your load of fun and suddenly you're slapped in the face with this change, much in the same way an unsuspecting, naive tourist in Thailand is slapped by something unpleasant. What do you do?
You have a few options.
a) stay with the 2h. But then your choppa is only getting 25% guard mitigation and you're soon kicked from any party whether wb or 6 man. Keeping the mdps alive is more important than whatever damage you provide.
b) swap to s/b. Full defense S/B does nothing outside of 48v48 situations so thats mostly out of the question. Offensive S/B simply doesn't really have the utility 2h BG used to have. Still as useless as you were before as s/b.


Just a word of caution to the developers. The developers of games like starcraft or LOL don't implement balance changes based on feedback from silver league players. I don't mean be to be snarky because its not an elitism thing, its simply about game knowledge. A tank player who spends 75% of his gameplay experience channeling hold the line is not mentally equipped to provide coherent and logical feedback. Everyone's feedback is valid, but not all should be equally weighted, nor should the feedback of the vocal minority be mistaken as that of the majority. What is especially concerning is that the biggest change in the history of the game (that is what this is, no exaggeration for real) was uploaded straight to live without testing, without a public poll and without the feedback of the best and most experienced active players.

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Tesq
Posts: 5704

Re: Patch Notes 23/03/2019

Post#233 » Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:36 pm

Hugatsaga wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:37 pm I felt like balance between snb and 2h was pretty good BEFORE this patch.

Large scale fights shield was always better, mostly because hold the line is pretty damn good ability and block works against ranged damage as well as melee.

On the other hand smaller scale 2h tanks were better.

I see no issue in that. Someone from dev team saw but I hardly doubt that issue justifies pretty much removing 6 specs from the game by making them unviable in most situations.
exatly the aim should be make "viable" 2h in wb and s+b in scenarios..... chirurgical fix to make that happen not a core flip change of the table.

this wont make 2h into wb, and just at max remove 2h from premades......pug will still pug,me aswell when i do with 2h.
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xoonerfree
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Posts: 107

Re: Patch Notes 23/03/2019

Post#234 » Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:03 pm

Charon wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:50 pm - All guard effects are now halved in effect if not using a shield.


Can author of this change PERSONALLY explain this decision and why he forces ppl not only to play s&b tanks but also cancels any sense to build def 2h tanks like 2h knight and def 2h sm.......... any brave one?
Excellent question. Thank you for asking it.

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Liandel
Posts: 88

Re: Patch Notes 23/03/2019

Post#235 » Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:04 pm

I need to be direct here.

The change made to the WL invader 7 piece is truly awful. Coordinated strike is the only damage-heavy ability in path of the Hunter, and a 10 percent increased chance to crit with it is basically useless and unnoticeable. The seven piece bonus of endgame gear should be powerful and worth getting, but this isn't. 10 percent increased chance to crit using one ability is far inferior to a static 5 or 8 percent chance to crit with ALL abilities if I combine jewelry and other items.

What serious WL player is going to grind seven piece invader to make their pounce hit harder? This really needs revision.

Could the dev in charge of this decision please explain why 10 percent crit chance on one path's abilities should be considered the ultimate endgame gear goal for WLs?
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xoonerfree
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Re: Patch Notes 23/03/2019

Post#236 » Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:09 pm

Alfinnete wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:18 pm
Grunbag wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:12 pm
Alfinnete wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2019 1:10 pm

Yes, i appreciate, but choppas don't need fix, need buff... or simple rework Rampage of slayer, this skills is OP and drop da basha is ridiculous compared for exemple. Rampage is the skill most used by slayer why have low CD and ignore all parry and block! :(

Rampage broken all defensive lines why Slayer spam AOE, and ignore all Destruction defensive of all player status of parry and block and this skill have 30sc CD.
Drop da Basha aply one debuff of 50% parry and block and this skill have 60sec CD.

I really dont see sense.
I can hear your impatience , but I want to fix all broken abilities before starting creating new skill .
Ty, waiting more about. Gj.
They'll never fix all broken abilities, will never happen.

Elendal
Posts: 54

Re: Patch Notes 23/03/2019

Post#237 » Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:22 pm

thank you for the patch changes. I am extremely happy with these changes and feel that the game will be better for it.

xoonerfree
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Posts: 107

Re: Patch Notes 23/03/2019

Post#238 » Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:23 pm

Unstoppable1776 wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:31 pm
peterthepan3 wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:28 pm
Telen wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2019 7:22 pm
I dont know I think having something other than 2x2h 2xmdps meta would make it more fun for everyone.
From a 6v6 pov: class diversity in the scene is already very high, and at a much better place than it has ever been.

Making 2h less appealing/no longer a thing will not increase variety at all, and making tanks have to go SNB is not the same as offering multiple choices. My 2c.
tanks are not forced, SW and SH a tank can still probably get away with 2H tanks. people are just getting too emotional over this. Mara is fine to with 25%, and i'm sure there are other dps classes that don't need the 50% guard.
You were on-board with the dps DOK transfer essence nerf.
You are on-board with the 2h tank guard nerf.

Pattern?

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Specialpatrol
Posts: 292

Re: Patch Notes 23/03/2019

Post#239 » Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:50 pm

Equating a 2H tank with a dps tank and making that the basis for a nerf to 2H Guard efficiency, is grossly simplistic and shockingly narrowminded. Following this line of thought, should SnB tanks then have their dps-output halved as well?

As has been stated by others, a 2H tank can be specced super defensively, where the need to go 2H is more based in gaining access to certain locked abilities. And vice versa, a SnB tank can spec quite offensively.

This type of pigonholing will force tanks into playing one specific style 90% of the time - simply because it will be mandatory.

No offense, but stuff like this only proves that the "dev" tag is a name-only kind of thing.
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berneke91
Posts: 62

Re: Patch Notes 23/03/2019

Post#240 » Sat Mar 23, 2019 10:51 pm

Yaliskah wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2019 5:55 pm Ok here we go.

Since the begining of this project we are testing, changing and keeping and removing changes in term of balance.

Purpose is always the same, bringing as much as possible balance to the game. Sometime change against all odds is good, sometime it is not. But fact is, nothing is engraved in the stone.

Server has been patched what.. 4 hours ago, and even some haven't tested anything,some complain, some rejoice, some don't see the reason, some understand the motive.

This test -cause like any change it is a test first- don't come from nowhere and is motivated by players feedbacks complaining that SnB are useless compared with 2H cause tankiness and general archetype tools are not really impacted in facts when DPS is demultiplied and tools even they can be different are still usefull for the group. I personally share this, and have played Snd and 2H tank in smallscale, and lets be honest, i see no advantage to play a SnB tank, excpet in Dungeons OR to Funnel/siege, which is very situationnal...

I guess no one expect that a DPS Healer for exemple heal as much as a pure Heal. We all know the story and the river of tears about this (DOK, WP, AM, Shaman...). When a DPS heal use his basic archetype, heals are divied /2. Thats a player choice, and no one coplains about it (except those you play with in scenario).

For the same reason, I don't see why a DPS tank would have 100% access to his basic tool, and as for for the heal divide guard /2 seems to be fair.

Now, lets put a little perspective in this. Guard hasn't been removed to 2H. It has been halved. Which means, they will absorb less damages from the target they will guard (50/50 > 75/25). Good thing for the player hmself, let received damage, more survivability.

To conclude. There is no crusade against anyone. There is even no realm balance issue. There is in my very honnest opinion some leverage given to SnB tanks vs 2H tanks in term of defensive tools for the group.

To conclude part 2 : Please stay cool and civilised, we can make mistakes, and our purpose is to make the game better not worse in the end. So concrete feedbacks are welcome more than over-reactions :).
Finally nice to see the reasoning behind the change! Would really love to if you for future patch notes could make an annotated version where you basicly lay out the base concept behind changes, why they where made and what the idea of testing is about!

Now with that said your entire argument is imo poorly based and where is why i think that.

1. Sword N Board are not useless. To claim that it is absolutely ridiculous and imo undercuts the entire argument you are trying to make. They are a different tool for a different purpose. Mainly large scale RvR or TANKING. The same way that most 2h is a seperate tool for a seperate purpose, mainly SC play and small scale RVR where you need that extra mileage of dmg to push healed targets into a grave.

2. A 2h DPS tank will NEVER come near the dmg of a dedicated DPS. Why? Because they cannot get remotely near the same offensive capabilities or their offensive stats. Can a TANK burst? Yes. They can throw in that extra bit of burst dmg to kill an enemy from an organised party in small scale or SC that is being healbombed. But even with that their main purpose remains utilitywise to CC, debuff and weaken their victims whilst protecting the people that do the REAL DAMAGE with guard.

3. Not only does it appear absolutely silly to nerf something because someone else isnt able to do Y so you shouldnt be able to do X because of that. The entire guard change (which is a pretty frickin core game mechanic) comes of as a completly arbitrary change.

4. IF you really believe that DPS Tanks are to good at being DPS you could nerf their numbers to make their dmg lower. But once again, that would also be a rather silly position to have since DPS tanks still do not come near the DPS of a dedicated DPS.

5. The only thing this change has achieved imo is reduced the likeliness of having the community point out things or abilities that are overtuned since it undermines your credability as a team to actually resolve them or even take them into consideration.

Its great that you wanna EXPERIMENT and test new things but you should be upfront when you do that and share your reasoning with the community. You could have avoided 90% of this outrage if you actually would have cared to EXPLAIN, ELABORATE or essentially post anything as to why this change was done. Instead you posted;

- All guard effects are now halved in effect if not using a shield.

We are not mindreaders so we have NO IDEA why this was done. What the purpose is or the basic logic behind the change is until you tell us.
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