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Patch Notes 08/02/2020 - City Sieges

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Fey
Posts: 471

Re: Patch Notes 08/02/2020 - City Sieges

Post#71 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:20 am

How is point blank not a viable counter to WoI? 100 ft garanteed KB as long as the target is not immune. WoI is for area denial, knock the zealot out of the area.
Fley - Zealot Domoarigobbo - Shaman
Squid - Squig Squit - B.O.
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Ototo
Posts: 1015

Re: Patch Notes 08/02/2020 - City Sieges

Post#72 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 2:08 am

Zxul wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 11:26 pm
(...)

Simple solution- 2 sm breach party, using VT one after another. 6 sec CC immunity, enough to cover Winds full duration, and no GCDs for one of sms for each duration.

(...)
Are you serious, bro? Not even training they will learn to do it with such level of precision that there is no push in between one fading and the next activating, and you are using 2 (that have to be 3 cause your way require a completely different training level above) specifically specced players for a single skill of the enemy warband, using the less useful of the SM mastery trees. So, do you have to fight 48 vs 24 to make things even?

That entire post was a sci-fi novel.
Spoiler:

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Acidic
Posts: 1495
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Re: Patch Notes 08/02/2020 - City Sieges

Post#73 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:18 am

Really dislike the skill changes. Dumbing down options and tools.
Direction seems to be any Just min max focused on only a limited class number. Strongly sounds like one dev bought int a certain guild mindset.

Hopefully if nothing else devs see the arguments against Winds of insanity match the arguments against Rampage. Big difference is rampage does not get immunities , and can be up 100%

Tone this s..t down if your arguments are genuine about winds as being able to land CD increase in its current model is very wrong

What I find odd is a month or so when I asked forum why Destro have no mirror to total party Rez skill on Destro I was clearly indicated (by order players) that this was Winds , rezzing upto five players by being able to hide for 5 seconds is a massively powerful skill and yes hard to use but rewards are very high.

Oh on a nother note on risk reward. The oil changes is not a good idea , removes the game flow and just bottlenecks thing to bash door and let engines and oil leach profit for very little risk.

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hammerhead
Posts: 100

Re: Patch Notes 08/02/2020 - City Sieges

Post#74 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:29 am

Great changes in the oil mechanics. Though a little cheer up routine siege.
(\|)o0(|/)

mubbl
Posts: 225

Re: Patch Notes 08/02/2020 - City Sieges

Post#75 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:27 am

Spoiler:
wonshot wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 6:07 pm
Greenbeast wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 4:13 pm
Last but not least.
I find very good that developers taking part in enteral testing and look how premades work on field.
I think it's very healthy and should be practiced more on both sides.
Even tho I don't believe that this is the case of a bias, I find it very upsetting that a develpoer that is involved in a game balancing discussion plays in a premade on order side. And these premade even states on streams that the developer is taking part in internal testing.
While this is dangerous territory I guess I'll try to adress this, as I assume it was directed at me?
Yes we had a Dev in our warband, after he applied to join as a full on guildmember, and be treated as a guildmember(and not a Dev-player!). That involves getting spammed on discord and waking up to 150+ new messages in our theorycrafting section, doing internal guild-tests in offzones where we play chars on both realms to test out how different mechanics interact with eachother. This new member had an idea about how his class would interact with the Zealot winds of insanity mechanic, and the change to this ability is probably because he realized how there was no actual counterplay to an ability prenerf did the following:

- Drained the Zealot's AP point periodically (ap pots are a thing)
- punted back all enemyplayers(24aoe cap) for the 6sec duration, without granting them punt/pull/root immunity
- undefendable ticks of damage (no longer relevant as AOE healdebuffing on crit is gone)
- allowed for the zealot to cast all normal abilities + morales while the Self-toggle of Winds of insanity is ongoing (creating a safezone while grouphealing or ressing)
- Immune to all sorts of setback, cc, interrupts while the toggle was on

Winds of Insanity needed a window where there is counterplay against it, because in a keep or funnel situation not having line of sight to super punt a zealot preemptively this one ability could stop a full M4 push. And it could be chained by other zealots as followup, potentially. (an other change could had been to just give Wind of Insanity a 6player aoe cap like Rift)

Now with the change, as I read the patchnotes. It sounds like the goal was to give a sort of counterplay reactionary and not preemptively. And I support this, and have been asking for this. But after testing the change on my own zealot, right now you cant do the following:

- Toggling on Winds of insanity you cant toggle it off again by pressing it twice. for quick kite+punt moves if you get dogpilled on.
- Escape will stop the channel if you wish to do so
- attempting to cast any other ability while Winds of insanity is toggled will now interrupt the effect (?) seemed too harsh of a nerf and if possible should be fixed!
- CC effects will now stop the effect (patchnotes read only "Hard interrupts such as taunt") so is this intented? Since the Selfblessing of Winds of insanity is still rooting the zealot in place, should it not be immune to CC but with the change, just not be immue to taunts and direct interrupts?

AOE 50%healdebuffs removed is still a massive mistake for warbandplay. And it begs the question, what is next? Aoe armor debuffs, aoe resist debuffs (they stack on destro, right? while order doesnt) aoe ini debuffs?

@Grunbe. I dont fully agree with the statement of Destro not having advantages in closecombat now with Winds of Insanity nerfed.
Destro still have Mara aoe knockdown, unmatched in unmirrored version on Order.
Meatball chargechannel still does a little babypunt serving as an aoe interrupt with a very short punt immunity
Winds of insanity is still a thing, tho much weaker and much more exposed & has counterplay now.
Snareproc from dok covernant are exelent to keep those pesky BW deathballs in place.

I would just like to eccho what others have said, think about the bigger picture here Devs with these drastic changes to aoe healdebuffs. And I truely hope to see more largescale balancing where more options become viable instead of keep removing options, as its the case with dps runepriest and zealot for warband play.
"- punted back all enemyplayers(24aoe cap) for the 6sec duration, without granting them punt/pull/root immunity"
and up to 3k aoe dps on a single player is fine?

"Winds of Insanity needed a window where there is counterplay against it, because in a keep or funnel situation not having line of sight to super punt a zealot preemptively this one ability could stop a full M4 push. And it could be chained by other zealots as followup, potentially. (an other change could had been to just give Wind of Insanity a 6player aoe cap like Rift)"
so can every cc...you are not forced to run into it, you can bait it or remove the zealot or should silence him before push.

"Now with the change, as I read the patchnotes. It sounds like the goal was to give a sort of counterplay reactionary and not preemptively. And I support this..."
sure but maybe you could have used the tools already in game instead of make it interrupt able by tools basicly every order char has? its not like you play against a dps zealot warband and since you got your save space back in my op sm should lose his interrupts. in my op the better solution would have been to add punt prevents on vaults tempering or do give something like that to ib.

retekelek
Posts: 90

Re: Patch Notes 08/02/2020 - City Sieges

Post#76 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:27 am

zgolec wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:46 pm
retekelek wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 7:13 pm
And what about Solar Flare on Kotbs for fort and keep plays? i was in a fort attack whit my tank, every time before we got m4 to ready to push 3-4 kotbs come out, droped thier morale drain on both sides frontline and we wasnt able to use m4 on pushing attempts. it was a massacre for order.
....and guess what? it was nerfed. Your turn Felicia.
Still OP as F in fort/keep sieges, why isnt it interruptable?

mubbl
Posts: 225

Re: Patch Notes 08/02/2020 - City Sieges

Post#77 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:35 am

Spoiler:
wonshot wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:33 pm
Zxul wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:05 pm
Funny thing, here are two ways of countering it which I came up with within 10 seconds after reading your post, which you for some reason didn't seem to find with all that testing:

1. Have an engi place a mine from far away, just before the push.
2. Have the tanks rushing in including sms with Vaul's Tempering.

Funny isn't it.
Funny thing, but do you even warband bra? jk :D

Vaul's Tempering is something we thourght about, but due to the 2GCD requirement on the ability, 30foot range on partymembers and this CC immunity only lasting half of the duration of a Winds channel you cant use this ability as a reactionary tool, and with 3sec duration its too "expensive" in terms of what you give up as a prediction-tool.
I dove abit into its usefulness a week ago over here: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=35124&p=389305#p389305 so its not like its not been thourght about. Believe me :P

I do like the suggestions and how some players like to think outside of the box and actually use different classes knowledge to work around strong tools, I am all for that part of the game. But Winds of Insanity simply just didnt have any counterplay. Now it just needs to fixed so zealot can cast spells without selfinterrupting, while being able to eat interrupts from enemies and its fine id think.
its a 1 sec "ramp up" time to get to perfect stance for bo/sm.

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Ototo
Posts: 1015

Re: Patch Notes 08/02/2020 - City Sieges

Post#78 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:50 pm

retekelek wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:27 am
Spoiler:
zgolec wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:46 pm
retekelek wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 7:13 pm
And what about Solar Flare on Kotbs for fort and keep plays? i was in a fort attack whit my tank, every time before we got m4 to ready to push 3-4 kotbs come out, droped thier morale drain on both sides frontline and we wasnt able to use m4 on pushing attempts. it was a massacre for order.
....and guess what? it was nerfed. Your turn Felicia.
Still OP as F in fort/keep sieges, why isnt it interruptable?
Let me remind you that destro has not one but two morale drains/pumps based in skills instead of in morale, and in widely used mastery trees. Also remind you that those drains/pumps can't be interrupted cause are procs, and that have a way higher uptime than a M4 has. It's very viable to completely avoid Solar Flare by simply clicking skills, while also pumping morale in your side to hit M3-M4.

So, unless that you want to see running around WLs/Slays/BWs with morale drains/pumps in skills and not KotBSs in morale, I would really suggest you to shut up about realm balance when you are so much biased. Cause that is exactly what you gonna get in exchange for a nerf to Solar Flare. Currently all viable morale drains/pumps in order are solely based in morale skills.

It can't be interrupted cause it is an instant cast.
Spoiler:

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retekelek
Posts: 90

Re: Patch Notes 08/02/2020 - City Sieges

Post#79 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:05 pm

Ototo wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:50 pm

It can't be interrupted cause it is an instant cast.


Well make it channelable spell whit build up time, so we can interrupt.
Winds was a toggle on/off spell too, which from its type not been able to affected by interrupts.



Before more responds come on this message, and we flooding whit nonsense, i was joking.

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wargrimnir
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Re: Patch Notes 08/02/2020 - City Sieges

Post#80 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:25 pm

Acidic wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:18 am
Really dislike the skill changes. Dumbing down options and tools.
Direction seems to be any Just min max focused on only a limited class number. Strongly sounds like one dev bought int a certain guild mindset.

Hopefully if nothing else devs see the arguments against Winds of insanity match the arguments against Rampage. Big difference is rampage does not get immunities , and can be up 100%

Tone this s..t down if your arguments are genuine about winds as being able to land CD increase in its current model is very wrong

What I find odd is a month or so when I asked forum why Destro have no mirror to total party Rez skill on Destro I was clearly indicated (by order players) that this was Winds , rezzing upto five players by being able to hide for 5 seconds is a massively powerful skill and yes hard to use but rewards are very high.

Oh on a nother note on risk reward. The oil changes is not a good idea , removes the game flow and just bottlenecks thing to bash door and let engines and oil leach profit for very little risk.
You seem to be not so subtly attacking a staff member. I recommend you avoid this and speak plainly on the actual issues at hand. Getting really tired of devs being attacked for simply playing with people on the server.

Rampage was simply never part of the conversation that was had about WOI, so I have no idea why people are so hard on us for not changing that skill at the same time. It's not remotely similar.
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