Manatikik wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:17 amSpoiler:wargrimnir wrote: ↑Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:06 pmLet's calm down a bit and walk through it. Very easy to yell nerf, a lot harder to look at the implementation and say "oh right, this isn't working anywhere near intended"
Reworked - Glass Arrow - Toggle Buff, while active: abilities deal an additional 50-250 Physical damage, but cost 15 more AP per use.
First pass - Didn't drain AP at all, worked on every damage tick. Clearly broken, nowhere near intended implementation.
Second pass - Drained way too much AP on AOE/channel abilities, applied on every damage tick. Draining your entire AP bar from casting a single AOE, also not intended, very disruptive for SW's.
Third pass - Moved to Scout with a 1s ICD. Scout doesn't have AOE and the 1s ICD really only applies to Rapid Fire (which was overperforming with 6 bonus ticks, now only 3), otherwise we would need several exceptions specific to this buff to avoid issues in the second pass.
Moved - Move Glass Arrow to Scout Core
While some lamented the loss of the original function of range reduction, the bonus damage (as evidenced by the excitement over the broken implementation) is meaningful.
Glass Arrow as a concept is a lame duck attempt to give a class that inarguably needs increased tooltip damage (due to a history of low damage AND the uncompensated damage that was lost 3 years ago in the UF removal) to try and seem "inventive" or "fun". It was a bad idea with bad execution (lots of bugs that are still being worked on). All this nerf did was wrap up the needed damage "buffs" SW needs in crap and tried to be fed to us as a good change that creates more problems than it solves. It also took a way a good utility skill that also doubled as a way to create "burst" between larger CD's.
Interesting concept but wasted effort in the end because SW suffers from having too many necessary/good Tactics that will always trump this one.Reworked - Guerrilla Training - After switching stance your action point costs are reduced by 25% and your movement speed is increased by 20% for 5s
Straight up buff if you use it. Provides a ton of mobility on demand, not the same as the goblin tactic, but arguably as effective. Replaced the AP reduction tactic in Scout, which if you're being honest was rarely taken for anything.
Eh, you can call it a buff but its more of a QoL change that isn't useful anymore because of how gutted ST Skirmish is now and how its an "AoE" spec.Updated - Acid Arrow - remove stance requirement. This can now be used from any stance.
Straight up buff.
Can't complain about this even if I think it coulda went further.Updated - Increased base damage of Fell the Weak, Acid Arrow, Throat Shot, and Eye Shot to match Eagle Eye.
All solid straight up buffs.
Eh, I see this as more of QoL change since Skirmish was gutted as anything besides a lolaoeclass.Moved - Move Eye Shot from Skirmish 5pt to Scout 5pt, remove stance requirement, remove buildup while moving, 100' range
Nerfed. Functionality stays the same, range goes up to 100', but it's no longer a mobile ranged knocked down. That takes it out of Skirmish viability as they rely on shorter range attacks. Can it be used? Sure. It probably still is. But the functionality is a clear shift from what it was before. Note here, Eye Shot was very long one of the few sore spots that people took issue with in SW.
Eh, i'm biased against this Tactic from the get go cause its garbage and (previously) LA was better AoE skill. It is what it is; people will do anything to pretend to do AoE damage.Reworked - Split Arrows tactic - Spiral Fletched Arrows and Broadhead Arrows now hit all enemies within 20' of your initial target, but their range is reduced to 65'
Mixed. While we intentionally increased range of the two skirmish spammable abilities to compensate for the overall range nerf with the loss of powerful draw, using this tactic brings these two back down to Skirmish range. However, there is no damage penalty, and they take full advantage of AOE cap. This is one of the trade-offs for increased power.
This was a big nerf to ST Skirmish playstyle and a versatility in Scout builds. Having Takedown/FS/SS be perma-65ft is a travesty for the class and really hamstrings what you can do.Reworked - Powerful Draw tactic - Skirmish abilities penetrate 25% armor.
Nerfed. This was the big nerf. 98' skirmish range cannibalizes the Scout tree, it always has. Without the range nerf, making significant improvements to Skirmish AOE/mobility would simply invalidate Scout further. The armor penetration bonus is pretty weak and may change to something more impactful.
The range is a buff; the addendum that you lose the ability to play the rest of the spec from that range makes this a "buff" in name only really (besides ASW also getting it which needs to be reduced to 65ft, same with BHA).Updated - Spiral Fletched Arrows base range increased to 100'
Buff*, previously you used PD for the increased range. By default this keeps it, but using Split Arrows reduces range.
This is a straight nerf; you have to triple stack to reach the same damage as a single DoT from other classes (a little high but the 2 stack isnt the same) except it takes 3 GCDs, 75 ap, and 3 seconds extra for the first hit to occure (6.45s total for damage). There is no way to logically spin this as anything but bad for the class. Revert the changes to BHA and SW will be better off.Updated - Broadhead Arrows - Now stacks up to 3 times and base range increased to 100'
First pass, stacking 3x with the existing damage scaling was far too much.
Second pass, lowering the ballistic scaling at the same time as increasing Flame Arrow. Result should be 1 FA = 2 BA < 3 BA. You still get good efficiency on BA with three stacks, provided they're not cleansed, and again, there's no damage penalty when using split arrows.
Worthless tactics and made worse with nerfs to Skirmish range. In the grand scheme though it is unimportant.Updated - Keen Arrowheads tactic - remove Eye Shot duration, add Flame Arrow duration increased to 15s
Eye shot duration refers to the initiative debuff, which if you're using ES in a rotation additional duration shouldn't be needed to kill a target in Scout stance, also it was removed from the tree. FA was added as it's part of the tree.
Random nerf for no reason. SW is literally the only DPS class without a (self)spammable AoE skill, no matter how weak.Updated - Lileaths Arrow - Now has a 5 second cooldown
Nerfed, can still be spammed with a SM in group using Whispering Winds, but we wanted to reinforce that synergy and require other AOE.
The thought behind it is good. I like the changes a lot. Sure the morale drain could be higher (now that its working as intended) but overall this was a great addition to SW in a really logical and functional way.Moved - Move Barrage to 13pt, reduce cooldown to 5s
First pass, Barrage was applying the full 300 morale drain on every cast regardless of VON, with Whispering Winds, it was doing this as a spammable cast meaning massive morale drain within 40'. Not intended, and overperforming.
Second pass, reduced to 100 morale drain pretty quickly before we realized it wasn't even being used during VON.
Third pass, once the VON interaction was fixed, this turned into a lower morale drain than what mara can do, while also being in a 10s/30s cycle. This may be adjusted upward.
Still a worthless skill due to damage, range, and how much you have to put into it so it pretends to be a normal DoT. Coulda reworked this into the new GA and kept old GA for actual useful things.Moved - Move Flame Arrow from Scout Core to Skirmish 5pt, swap Scout stance requirement with Skirmish stance, increase primary stat multiplier by 20%, range 65'
Buff. FA was a bad skill aside from being an instant cast dot. The damage was sad, the initial hit was sad. Now it's comparable to similar dots.
Updated - Enchanted Arrows no longer affects Flame Arrow
FA was moved to Skirmish, and in the second pass was buffed to scale much better with ballistic, which results in a small net buff to damage.
Changes aren't really a buff because your melee attacks hit like a wet noodle without Assault Stance buff for the Str/Crit. Doesn't really affect balance at all.Assault Tree
Updated - Brutal Slash - swap Scout with Skirmish requirement
Buff, didn't really make sense to have this on Scout. QOL fix is all.
Updated - Sweeping Slash - add Skirmish requirement
Buff, access to this AOE was a low effort change that provides another AOE to Skirmish.
Reworked - Steady Aim - Toggle Buff, while active: Cast time buildup takes an additional 1s, but you gain 25% bonus critical damage.
Feedback on this isn't great, and playing with it doesn't feel great either. Intended to provide more crit damage in exchange for cast time, it's too much even at 1s to be viable for the crit damage. Up for review.
Positive change; at 5AP though its still best used as a layer for things to not get shattered.Updated - Hunters Fervor - Changed 20% AP regen to 5 AP regen per second
Minor buff, but it is a buff. 5AP per second is actually more than what most people would get with 20% additonal base regen. Not a lot of feedback around it, probably not strong enough to matter yet.
FTW - Okay change; helps on some targets on others not so muchVengeance of Nagarythe
Buffs all around, no question about it. VON was targeted at the specline abilities, they're all fairly significant benefits.
Several abilities now have a "While Vengeful" modifier below
Fell the Weak - deals spirit damage
Festering Arrow - undefendable
Eye Shot - cooldown reduced by 10s
Barrage - removes 100 morale from targets **
As noted above, 100 morale may be too low now that it's working as intended.
Shadow Sting - undefendable
Flame Arrow - increase radius by 10'
Exploit Weakness - cooldown reduced by 10s
Crosscut - hits an additional time
This is probably the only one that has any significant feedback for being too powerful.
Swift Strikes - lasts an additional 2s
FA - Is good thought but doesn't work as it needs to with popping VoN AFTER you using FA; like the thought behind it but is too little too late imo. FA/PA should've ALWAYS been undefendable since they are the mirrors of BoC/Snipe. Its a really shitty slight to SW/SH that they are second class citizens in this regard
Eye Shot - I disagree with this because with WW you are now at a 5s cd RKD. Should've made it so if you are under VoN it is still castable on move
Barrage - Great skill, needs a little more tweaking to find the sweet spot
SS - Good change, helps saves GCD's without being too powerful
Flame Arrow - Doesn't matter cause its worthless
EW - Same reasoning as Eye Shot; way too strong to be able to have your CC on low CD's. If you insist on giving it a VoN effect i'd suggest a secondary affect
Crosscut - Third strike makes it far too strong; gives ASW too much burst in one timestamp currently.
Swift Strikes - its an okay change; not super useful outside of movement but its a nice gesture.
First of all, thank you Wargrimnir for writing up a summary of all the changes and explaining the reasoning behind these changes. I can see how many of these changes are good and/or have good intentions and thoughts behind them even though I might not agree with all of them. For example I don't agree with nerfing range on skirmish or that longer range skirmish would cannibalize on scout tree since these trees have other differences than range that sets them apart and most rSW/rSH players probably put many points in both of these trees to get a good balance. It's rarely either one or the other except when speccing ASW or MSH where you'd need to put most if not all points in the middle tree to get the necessary skills and tactics. I'm also happy to see that you are still considering tweaks and changes and that you acknowledge some of the issues, for example with the morale drain and so on.
Also, thanks to Manatikik for this very good explanation on some of the issues with the current changes. I think you really hit the nail on the head when you explained the challenges that some of these changes impose and also what works well and I think your suggestions on changes sounds reasonable.