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Patch Notes 15/07/2020

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Foofmonger
Posts: 524

Re: Patch Notes 15/07/2020

Post#81 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:47 pm

Generally speaking, for people who aren't aware, WAM is correct on most things, being the guild leader of both a top order and top destro guild.

Arguing with him without having a coherent viewpoint or argument is usually a bad idea. Especially if you only play 1 faction and don't have any perspective from the other side. If you don't have top tier RR80+ characters on both Order and Destro, maybe its time to slow down and listen to the experts who do.

If I post something from my own biased destro perspective side, and someone like WAM corrects me, you are damn sure I'm going to listen. Think about doing the same.

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Sulorie
Posts: 7219

Re: Patch Notes 15/07/2020

Post#82 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:01 pm

Karl wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:50 pm
Sulorie wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:40 pm
Karl wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:28 pm
Well, last patch (or the one before) they gave LA - which is a aoe-abillity - 5 sec cd....
That fits well with a cd decreaser. SM says "hi".
Haha, i see what you did there... well played indeed :)

But as a SW (and beeing a casual player) i mostly get to PUG and WW co-cordination isn't the best there - yeah i get that game is built around gruops, but still... without the cd there was atlest one tool to bring to fort, city and zergs... :) naw now with changes to malus i fear that zergs are gonna grow even bigger...

Enuff from me now, time to play :)
It's all about group synergy. :)
AM and shaman as subpar healers for city become very strong if paired with cd decreasers for very potent aoe healing.

I don't understand the malus change either but I guess it is meant to give at least some rewards winning a numerical balanced small scale or wb vs wb fight instead of getting 0 rewards, because 5 other wb zerg somewhere else.
Dying is no option.

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Wam
Posts: 803

Re: Patch Notes 15/07/2020

Post#83 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:13 pm

Foofmonger wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:47 pm Generally speaking, for people who aren't aware, WAM is correct on most things, being the guild leader of both a top order and top destro guild.

Arguing with him without having a coherent viewpoint or argument is usually a bad idea. Especially if you only play 1 faction and don't have any perspective from the other side. If you don't have top tier RR80+ characters on both Order and Destro, maybe its time to slow down and listen to the experts who do.

If I post something from my own biased destro perspective side, and someone like WAM corrects me, you are damn sure I'm going to listen. Think about doing the same.
Some order players don't act like the slayer pain train... the BW deathball... exist or even if you played destro you see the amount of whine WL for years? :lol:

Just because some people do not fully utilize its strengths... I see people complain about mara/MSH, there are some really good players on this class but they are mostly spread around and not stacked in a premade and alot of mara/msh are above average. A above average bw or slayer is alot more potent imo aslong as they are supported.

In recent years order have got Aoe heal debuff nerfed, Winds nerfed, raze nerfed, morale drain nerfed, morale bomb nerfed... yeah some of it effects the other side but it has more of a negative impact on destro (the ripple effect)... next they want to go after mara KD LOL, its just chipping away at things over years... meanwhile order gets to keep all its extra goodies of +wounds +raw dmg and +healing and nobody bats a eye. That's why i see some of these complaints from order as beyond redicilous in the grand scheme of things but not many people can look impartially and see bigger picture.

Order is in alot stronger position than it was a few months ago when things was more equal. It just sucks a bit for its fringe classes which is a shame for those who like variety. Considering morale bomb was nerfed because it was META, maybe improving outcasts will also help META choices with more options available instead of same old. If we ever get to a point where every class feels viable/wanted/a positive choice(has a role) then that would be cool but im sure people would find something else to argue over :lol:
Wamizzle Guild Leader [TUP]
Wamizzle Guild Leader [The Unlikely Plan]

Foofmonger
Posts: 524

Re: Patch Notes 15/07/2020

Post#84 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:18 pm

I 100% agree with you, your assessment is both accurate, historical and factual, and makes analytical and objective sense.

I think the correct approach is moving non-meta classes (and builds/specs, I thoroughly believe that all 3 mastery paths for all class should have a purpose) towards meta viability, and not heavy handed nerfs based on the feedback of people with little perspective or understanding of balance.

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Omegus
Posts: 1373

Re: Patch Notes 15/07/2020

Post#85 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:26 pm

Spellbound wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:11 amOrder population is much lower than Destro reason Destro is easily pushing 1-2 star Altdorf.
We've just had a period of non-stop IC farming. It always goes in waves back and forth.
Spellbound wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:11 amAbilities like GTDC with double/triple pulls while in the air not giving immunity is still in the game.
This is a bug that was hard for the devs to track down. Apparently they've now worked out exactly what is causing the extra pulls so a fix should be inbound.
Spellbound wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:11 amPast week of cannon abuse by solos every 10 minutes to tag doors to prevent leveling keeps during low pop is making Order log after hours of doing it, thus oRvR not being fun anymore on Order side.
Tagging doors with cannons has been a thing for years that both sides do. Typically done by whichever side is underpopulated in RVR as a delaying tactic. Currently that side is order, up until recently it was destro.
Spellbound wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:11 amThere’s many issues on Order side which Destro side doesn’t have to deal with.

... yet still let down by this patch with more Order changes/nerfs and rewarding Destro zergs even more and more are flopping to that side, even during NA prime when Order used to do well.
Erm, NA prime time is usually very destro biased.
Spellbound wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:11 amMy guess total city instances will soon start capping at 9-10 when sometimes we’re at 12.
City today at the worst time possible (2pm UK time) had 20 instances.
Spellbound wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:11 amArchmages need a ton of healing love too. They’re far behind their Shaman counterpart on defense abilities and being wanted in cities. Destro can do fine with 3 shaman in cities while Order hurt themselves the more they have.
For cities Shamans are actually in a pretty bad spot right now. Group morale pumps aren't needed anymore (and always had the downside of needing the whole WB to reach a certain morale point anyway), insta-res is still useful and most Shamans can't use Fury of the Green properly meaning it's a hard ask to justify them over Zealots (a good shammy using FOTG well is invaluable though). Without mass morale pumps and dumps the meta is shifting towards specific morales other than M1s and M2s. For destro that is Zealots with Windblock as they can self pump to M4 for an AOE heal debuff. On order the popular ones are still No Escape and some cheeky WHs are using Excomunicate to burn down champions in stage 3, and there's a lovely "issue" with another order morale that's starting to be abused which I won't repeat as hopefully it gets fixed soon.

And of course Archmages have less defensive tools than Shamans and that's mostly down to goblin racial tactics. Most races have less escape tools than gobbos full stop.
Spellbound wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:11 amAfter working on balance in DAOC, Warhammer Live, Phoenix DAOC, it’s painful to see things being ignored and wrong things being focused on and I can see and hear from friends playing both realms what the balance issues are. I can’t correct them but I’d figure eventually someone involved in balancing here will eventually see it.
Live balance was way worse than ROR and we're still dealing with the fallout of some of the design decisions made on live. BWs and Sorcs are probably responsible for more people unsubbing from live than anything else and the AOE damage rework came far too late. Which classes did you work on? Can I blame you for the final state of Zealot DPS? :P

As for someone being involved in balancing here... there is no dedicated person anymore. Secrets nerfs his WL regularly to slowly undo the mistakes of the past (that dev is no longer on the team), sometimes someone will blanket nerf something without quite understanding what it is they're nerfing, how they're nerfing it and why (Winds of Insanity), and sometimes someone who doesn't really play the game has a go at doing proper balance work without engaging with the community first and you get the RSW rework.

It's a shame as some of the past stuff - WP/DOK melee heal spec changes - were seemingly done with community involvement and turned out great.
Zomega: RR8x Zealot

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Zaxxond
Posts: 431

Re: Patch Notes 15/07/2020

Post#86 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:47 pm

I offer a compromise. Nerf the AoE BW and buff the SW.

This will cripple Order's reliance on the AoE BW in RVR/City logging and force Order to invite other classes to their warband.

#nerfaoebw
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Nosun
Posts: 112

Re: Patch Notes 15/07/2020

Post#87 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:22 pm

I don't play one but good grief sw really don't need further nerfs they need buffs. 2 of orders most popular classes sw and wh unfortunately are also the 2 weakest classes in the game.

jvlosky
Posts: 168

Re: Patch Notes 15/07/2020

Post#88 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:27 pm

Elenori wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:50 am I don't usually write a lot on the forums, but have to start some time...

If the reasoning behind the recent changes to shadow warriors was to improve the class, then it wasn't a very good job (especially with the later changes limiting everything even further). If you judge by the city sieges that seem to be the base of measurement, shadow warriors were in demand for what, one day? :P

I can agree that the melee ability having three hits was a little too powerful, but I don't think making it even worse than before is the way to go. Perhaps you could return it to the original (two hits and spirit) and put the vengeance part into something else?

This is really sad.
It was just a scheme to buff squig herder all along.

You've gotta be joking yourself if you think Order is getting any buff anytime soon.

Mara gets a rework and huge buffs, they are now the most sought after Melee dps for organized WBs.

SW gets a 'rework' and it is just a nerf back into obscurity, **** is whack.


The Destro Bias from the dev team and balance team is just so obvious.

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M0rw47h
Posts: 898

Re: Patch Notes 15/07/2020

Post#89 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:40 pm

jvlosky wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:27 pm
Elenori wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:50 am I don't usually write a lot on the forums, but have to start some time...

If the reasoning behind the recent changes to shadow warriors was to improve the class, then it wasn't a very good job (especially with the later changes limiting everything even further). If you judge by the city sieges that seem to be the base of measurement, shadow warriors were in demand for what, one day? :P

I can agree that the melee ability having three hits was a little too powerful, but I don't think making it even worse than before is the way to go. Perhaps you could return it to the original (two hits and spirit) and put the vengeance part into something else?

This is really sad.
It was just a scheme to buff squig herder all along.

You've gotta be joking yourself if you think Order is getting any buff anytime soon.

Mara gets a rework and huge buffs, they are now the most sought after Melee dps for organized WBs.

SW gets a 'rework' and it is just a nerf back into obscurity, **** is whack.


The Destro Bias from the dev team and balance team is just so obvious.
No idea how you can write such nonsense, when destro was constantly nerfed.

jvlosky
Posts: 168

Re: Patch Notes 15/07/2020

Post#90 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:50 pm

M0rw47h wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:40 pm
jvlosky wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:27 pm
Elenori wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:50 am I don't usually write a lot on the forums, but have to start some time...

If the reasoning behind the recent changes to shadow warriors was to improve the class, then it wasn't a very good job (especially with the later changes limiting everything even further). If you judge by the city sieges that seem to be the base of measurement, shadow warriors were in demand for what, one day? :P

I can agree that the melee ability having three hits was a little too powerful, but I don't think making it even worse than before is the way to go. Perhaps you could return it to the original (two hits and spirit) and put the vengeance part into something else?

This is really sad.
It was just a scheme to buff squig herder all along.

You've gotta be joking yourself if you think Order is getting any buff anytime soon.

Mara gets a rework and huge buffs, they are now the most sought after Melee dps for organized WBs.

SW gets a 'rework' and it is just a nerf back into obscurity, **** is whack.


The Destro Bias from the dev team and balance team is just so obvious.
No idea how you can write such nonsense, when destro was constantly nerfed.

Mara gets a rework/buff, Order doesn't make a peep. Mara becomes one of the strongest melee dps with utility and most desired class for wbs.


SW gets a rework/buff. Destro loses their **** minds, SW gets a nerf, Destro loses their **** minds still, SW gets a nerf, Destro loses their **** minds, SW gets another nerf. And now we are here talking about how massively nerfed Destro has been.

LMAO so indicative of the general tone of these forums and this game.

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