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Patch Notes 06/08/2020

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Wam
Posts: 803

Re: Patch Notes 06/08/2020

Post#71 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:47 pm

More tilting balance towards order to make up for their lack of organised / l2p setup issues

Mara lost its morale drain to get dmg boost, now its lost its dmg boost and in worse position again... has morale stopper ever worked? and morale bomb been changed significantly... its ST tree's got nerfed in the past also. Mara has strength and weakness, it was maybe a little over tuned but that is more bug issues and fighting weaker compositions makes it look stronger than it is.

It set's bad precedent with the whiny nature to get something nerfed... so what if order still keep failing with cities because they don't address their composition / setup issues? more destro nerfs to make up for order's lack of knowledge/adapting and teamplay? That is a slippery slope for balancing... it does give off the meme perception of bias even if it not intended or don't care about it. Because order mentality are going to whine if they lose and look for excuse, even when LOB/MONT NGE, and we have proved its pretty much fine as can be on order side without direct mirrors. Alot of influential and experienced leaders(more so order) talk out their *** when it comes to balance and composition, they should know better but get such blinkered tunnel vision with grass is greener effect instead of play to own strengths.

Ib change makes them more useful and a contender for 2nd tank spot. It might be a tad bit excessive but gives them a purpose, changes like this for the unloved niche classes Welf/WH/SW/Magi/Engi and could maybe add am/shaman in there too to make them more competitive with their rival faction archtypes which excel.

Maybe I stick to order more, if its going to keep getting preferential treatment.
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lyncher12
Posts: 542

Re: Patch Notes 06/08/2020

Post#72 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:03 pm

everyone complained about how mara was practically immune to phys damage but devs nerf their damage output

is this secretly riot games?

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Omegus
Posts: 1373

Re: Patch Notes 06/08/2020

Post#73 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:16 pm

ReturnOfReckoning wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:37 am - Fixed absorb to be after toughness, but before armor/resists (before patch it was done after all mitigation)

[Marauder]

Revert the earlier primary stat multiplier (PSM) increases on the Path of Monstrosity AoE abilities. The single target damage increases and the increases in other masteries are kept.

-Demolition: PSM 1.13 -> 0.86
-Mouth of Tzeentch: PSM 1.0 -> 0.75
-Wave of Mutilation: PSM 0.55 -> 0.38
-Concussive Jolt: PSM 1.25 -> 0.86
- Wrecking Ball: PSM 0.33 -> 0.22
Here's the thing: Marauder damage on the scoreboard was being inflated by the crazy survivability in Monstro stance because the proc is overperforming due to various bugs . This allows/allowed Marauders to just keep dpsing and dpsing as they were often the last things to die when facing melee-heavy groups.

Firstly: the main bug was absorb shields being after armour. As monstro Marauders shrug off all armour penetration absorb shields provided far more damage mitigation on Marauders than on other classes (even tanks). Once you get through parry, toughness and full armour you then have some nice absorb shields waiting. Considering the destro healer meta favours Zealots at the moment, most of those Marauders are getting good absorb shields placed on them regularly by Zealots.

Secondly: Zealot healing ritual is bugged (and so is the RP one). A while back it was changed to be able to critically hit, but this change also allowed it to proc any direct heal effects (either on direct heal or on direct heal crit) which was unintended but hasn't been reverted. This allows for bubbles to be continuously procced on Marauders in the party more often than they should be. This is now less of an issue with the absorb/mitigation fix but would've made a significant difference before. After this patch destro no longer has a bigger advantage with this; both sides now benefit equally from the bonus absorb procs.

Thirdly: this one could be out of date as I haven't been able to test it for a long time but Monstro stance was at one point ignoring both armour penetration (which is from Weapon Skill and any item that specifically says "armour penetration") and armour by-pass/ignore as well (Hack and Slash tactic for WLs, Torment on WHs, etc). "Armour penetration" and "ignore armour"/"by-pass armour" are two different things and the monstro proc should only be ignoring armour penetration. If this bug is still in effect then some things that should counter montro stance are not functioning properly giving the Mara even higher survivability. Last time the tests were done I believe the WH's Torment sometimes got past monstro stance depending on angle of attack - I don't think Feinted Positioning allowed it to by-pass the armour from front stabs.

Considering the Mara has taken a big (and needed) hit with absorbs this patch, please can you consider reverting the damage changes made in this patch until you can see what impact having absorbs in the right order has on Mara survivability and damage? The damage changes feel like you're jumping the gun a bit considering how much of an impact the absorb fix will have on Marauders. And then look into fixing bugs #2 and #3 (if #3 still applies...) to allow you to make balance judgements based on the correct behaviour of the game.


edit: I hope the Mara's balance changes weren't influenced by Rolg's meltdown after this city siege (https://i.imgur.com/ZjMTgh0.png) because order/LBL may as well have deliberately thrown the city with how bad their plays were across all 3 stages :/
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nat3s
Posts: 450

Re: Patch Notes 06/08/2020

Post#74 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:39 pm

Order have too many SW, BW and Engi which hinders them in cities. Will nerfing maras help? I doubt it will, feels like people are looking in the wrong place, but time will tell. I'd be happy if it helped even the city scorelines despite Mara being my main.
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phononHYPE
Posts: 569

Re: Patch Notes 06/08/2020

Post#75 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:01 pm

I like the idea of absorbs scaling with WP, as WP is currently an afterthought on healers.

Choppa pull height adjustment is fine too, as we all went through a huge debacle last year over jumping on walls, pulling from walls etc.

IB adjustments seem good, but the Mara seems a bit heavy handed. They did seem to have everything, but I don't have much first-hand knowledge as I deleted mine a bit back. It will be interesting to see how this plays out in a back-and-forth balancing.
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ChicagoJoe
Posts: 254

Re: Patch Notes 06/08/2020

Post#76 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:17 pm

Wam wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 4:47 pm More tilting balance towards order to make up for their lack of organised / l2p setup issues

Mara lost its morale drain to get dmg boost, now its lost its dmg boost and in worse position again... has morale stopper ever worked? and morale bomb been changed significantly... its ST tree's got nerfed in the past also. Mara has strength and weakness, it was maybe a little over tuned but that is more bug issues and fighting weaker compositions makes it look stronger than it is.

It set's bad precedent with the whiny nature to get something nerfed... so what if order still keep failing with cities because they don't address their composition / setup issues? more destro nerfs to make up for order's lack of knowledge/adapting and teamplay? That is a slippery slope for balancing... it does give off the meme perception of bias even if it not intended or don't care about it. Because order mentality are going to whine if they lose and look for excuse, even when LOB/MONT NGE, and we have proved its pretty much fine as can be on order side without direct mirrors. Alot of influential and experienced leaders(more so order) talk out their *** when it comes to balance and composition, they should know better but get such blinkered tunnel vision with grass is greener effect instead of play to own strengths.

Ib change makes them more useful and a contender for 2nd tank spot. It might be a tad bit excessive but gives them a purpose, changes like this for the unloved niche classes Welf/WH/SW/Magi/Engi and could maybe add am/shaman in there too to make them more competitive with their rival faction archtypes which excel.

Maybe I stick to order more, if its going to keep getting preferential treatment.
Oh come on. Destro has been reaping the rewards of unintended consequences of obtaining some of their classes order mirrors best abilities. Choppa pull still broken. Timing is off and should trigger immunity at a minimum. The marauder nerf is better than nothing but the class was over performing before and will still overperform.

TUP/FMJ are some of the best guilds on this server and you are tactically brilliant. For you to moan that order is getting preferential treatment after MONTHS of benefiting from boosts you didn't need is ridiculous.

There are LTP/Organizational issues with order, but the developers choice of what abilities stack certainly favored destros strengths. If engi/sw ranged abilities stacked more and led to an 70-80% win rate in cities I would admit that destros complaints were righteous. Not sure why you are complaining.
Last edited by ChicagoJoe on Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Dinotron
Posts: 38

Re: Patch Notes 06/08/2020

Post#77 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:17 pm

Just delete Marauders from the game already. Release us.

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Omegus
Posts: 1373

Re: Patch Notes 06/08/2020

Post#78 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:37 pm

T1 scens flooded with Choppas. Sorry Order.
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Manatikik
Posts: 1249

Re: Patch Notes 06/08/2020

Post#79 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:39 pm

Omegus wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 5:16 pm
ReturnOfReckoning wrote: Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:37 am - Fixed absorb to be after toughness, but before armor/resists (before patch it was done after all mitigation)

[Marauder]

Revert the earlier primary stat multiplier (PSM) increases on the Path of Monstrosity AoE abilities. The single target damage increases and the increases in other masteries are kept.

-Demolition: PSM 1.13 -> 0.86
-Mouth of Tzeentch: PSM 1.0 -> 0.75
-Wave of Mutilation: PSM 0.55 -> 0.38
-Concussive Jolt: PSM 1.25 -> 0.86
- Wrecking Ball: PSM 0.33 -> 0.22
Here's the thing: Marauder damage on the scoreboard was being inflated by the crazy survivability in Monstro stance because the proc is overperforming due to various bugs . This allows/allowed Marauders to just keep dpsing and dpsing as they were often the last things to die when facing melee-heavy groups.

Firstly: the main bug was absorb shields being after armour. As monstro Marauders shrug off all armour penetration absorb shields provided far more damage mitigation on Marauders than on other classes (even tanks). Once you get through parry, toughness and full armour you then have some nice absorb shields waiting. Considering the destro healer meta favours Zealots at the moment, most of those Marauders are getting good absorb shields placed on them regularly by Zealots.

Secondly: Zealot healing ritual is bugged (and so is the RP one). A while back it was changed to be able to critically hit, but this change also allowed it to proc any direct heal effects (either on direct heal or on direct heal crit) which was unintended but hasn't been reverted. This allows for bubbles to be continuously procced on Marauders in the party more often than they should be. This is now less of an issue with the absorb/mitigation fix but would've made a significant difference before. After this patch destro no longer has a bigger advantage with this; both sides now benefit equally from the bonus absorb procs.

Thirdly: this one could be out of date as I haven't been able to test it for a long time but Monstro stance was at one point ignoring both armour penetration (which is from Weapon Skill and any item that specifically says "armour penetration") and armour by-pass/ignore as well (Hack and Slash tactic for WLs, Torment on WHs, etc). "Armour penetration" and "ignore armour"/"by-pass armour" are two different things and the monstro proc should only be ignoring armour penetration. If this bug is still in effect then some things that should counter montro stance are not functioning properly giving the Mara even higher survivability. Last time the tests were done I believe the WH's Torment sometimes got past monstro stance depending on angle of attack - I don't think Feinted Positioning allowed it to by-pass the armour from front stabs.

Considering the Mara has taken a big (and needed) hit with absorbs this patch, please can you consider reverting the damage changes made in this patch until you can see what impact having absorbs in the right order has on Mara survivability and damage? The damage changes feel like you're jumping the gun a bit considering how much of an impact the absorb fix will have on Marauders. And then look into fixing bugs #2 and #3 (if #3 still applies...) to allow you to make balance judgements based on the correct behaviour of the game.


edit: I hope the Mara's balance changes weren't influenced by Rolg's meltdown after this city siege (https://i.imgur.com/ZjMTgh0.png) because order/LBL may as well have deliberately thrown the city with how bad their plays were across all 3 stages :/

I think the initial PSM changes were too heavy handed but complete revert seems odd. But the main problem with Maras is how broken Monstro Proc is; it has virtually a 100% uptime and makes 5/6 of Order's DPS useless (Gren Engi is already pretty useless even if it does some Corp damage). Doesn't hurt they have arguably the best WB utility skill as well. Mara's definitely needed some adjustment but I don't think this was the right move to lessen their impact while still being strong.
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Vandoles
Posts: 249

Re: Patch Notes 06/08/2020

Post#80 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:42 pm

Let's all take a second to appreciate the irony of complaining how much whining order did as destro have created well over 20 pages of crying over nerfing a class that everyone agrees was overtuned. This is a free game, they can't test changes, obviously the damage tune is experimental.

I just hope devs have paid enough attention to the massive wave of crying this has produced to see what REAL whining is (as they clearly think order does more of it). And how spoiled you can make a faction.

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