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Patch Notes 12/08/2020

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Kaelang
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Posts: 902

Re: Patch Notes 12/08/2020

Post#121 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:13 am

Boomie82 wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:07 am
- The number of invader/royal crests in RvR bags if you already have the vanquisher/invader tome unlock have been increased to 1 in Green, 1 in Blue, 2 in Purple and 3 in Gold.
green bags still give 2 vanquisher medallions.
i that intendet or just need a fix/patch? :)
This is fixed already on dev, awaiting hotfix / next patch.
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Grock
Posts: 660

Re: Patch Notes 12/08/2020

Post#122 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:14 am

dalen wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 8:21 pm
They are also done in the damage multipliers step. Bonuses are additive and reductions are multiplicative.

So for example Divine Fury (+25%) and Bloodlord weapon (+5%) is +30% damage.

However Immaculate Defense (-75%) and Vigilance (-50%) is -87.5% damage.
Is there any reason to keep dmg bonuses additive instead of multiplicative though?
If they were multiplicative their values would actually be reliable, 5% more dmg would mean exactly 5% more dmg, while right now it would be less than 5% if you have other % bonuses like Flanking or Rage or Loner or temporary buffs.
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Rydiak
Posts: 419

Re: Patch Notes 12/08/2020

Post#123 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:16 am

Grock wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:14 am
dalen wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 8:21 pm
They are also done in the damage multipliers step. Bonuses are additive and reductions are multiplicative.

So for example Divine Fury (+25%) and Bloodlord weapon (+5%) is +30% damage.

However Immaculate Defense (-75%) and Vigilance (-50%) is -87.5% damage.
Is there any reason to keep dmg bonuses additive instead of multiplicative though?
If they were multiplicative their values would actually be reliable, 5% more dmg would mean exactly 5% more dmg, while right now it would be less than 5% if you have other % bonuses like Flanking or Rage or Loner or temporary buffs.
That's...that's not how math works.
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Grock
Posts: 660

Re: Patch Notes 12/08/2020

Post#124 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:26 am

Rydiak wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:16 am
Grock wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:14 am
dalen wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 8:21 pm
They are also done in the damage multipliers step. Bonuses are additive and reductions are multiplicative.

So for example Divine Fury (+25%) and Bloodlord weapon (+5%) is +30% damage.

However Immaculate Defense (-75%) and Vigilance (-50%) is -87.5% damage.
Is there any reason to keep dmg bonuses additive instead of multiplicative though?
If they were multiplicative their values would actually be reliable, 5% more dmg would mean exactly 5% more dmg, while right now it would be less than 5% if you have other % bonuses like Flanking or Rage or Loner or temporary buffs.
That's...that's not how math works.
Are you sure? :)
Here's example of value of adding Bloodlord on top of other bonuses:
105/100 = 1.05 (No modifiers)
130/125 = 1.04 (Yellow rage)
155/150 = 1.033 (Red rage)
180/175 = 1.028 (Yellow Exhaustive bonus)
For Furious Exhaustive blow bonus Bloodlord is almost half as efficient as its face value

On the other hand if you use that bonus on Bright Wizard its efficiency will never diminish becaue BW doesn't have other % bonuses and relies on Crit Dmg which is multiplicative with %dmg :P
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Rydiak
Posts: 419

Re: Patch Notes 12/08/2020

Post#125 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:48 am

You are comparing the value of Bloodlord to the value of your other sources of damage increase, not to the value of your actual damage done....

If you do 100 damage base, adding 5% bonus damage adds 5 damage.
If you do 100 damage base, adding 25% bonus damage adds 25 damage.
If you do 100 damage base, adding 5% bonus damage to the previous 25% bonus damage (so now it is 30% bonus damage, additive) adds 30 damage.
5 + 25 = 30....additive

If you multiplied a 5% bonus into a 25% bonus you'd get a 31.25% bonus (1.05 * 1.25)
So now that 100 damage base becomes 131.25 damage, or an increase of 31.25 damage, above the 30 damage that we'd expect. That is why it is additive and not multiplicative.

This is middleschool level math. I shouldn't have to explain it.
Rydiak/WP/85 - "That Grace WP"

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Grock
Posts: 660

Re: Patch Notes 12/08/2020

Post#126 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:12 pm

Rydiak wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:48 am
You are comparing the value of Bloodlord to the value of your other sources of damage increase, not to the value of your actual damage done....

If you do 100 damage base, adding 5% bonus damage adds 5 damage.
If you do 100 damage base, adding 25% bonus damage adds 25 damage.
If you do 100 damage base, adding 5% bonus damage to the previous 25% bonus damage (so now it is 30% bonus damage, additive) adds 30 damage.
5 + 25 = 30....additive

If you multiplied a 5% bonus into a 25% bonus you'd get a 31.25% bonus (1.05 * 1.25)
So now that 100 damage base becomes 131.25 damage, or an increase of 31.25 damage, above the 30 damage that we'd expect. That is why it is additive and not multiplicative.

This is middleschool level math. I shouldn't have to explain it.
I'm not sure what you aren't getting here, you even provided an example that illustrates my point
Additive "stacking" of bonuses means the X bonus is just "X of your base value", as such the more bonuses you have, the less efficient further additions are.
With multiplicative "stacking" each bonus is what it is, the X increase means X increase, regardless of how many other bonuses you might have.

Let me illustrate with higher values for better visibility
You do 100 damage, you add 50% dmg increase, thats 150 damage, everything is right
You do 100 damage, you already have 100% dmg bonus, you invest into the same 50% dmg increase, your damage goes from 200 to 250, thats only 25% net increase, only a half of what you've been promised
If it was multiplicative what would happen in second example is your damage would go from 200 to 300, which is exactly 50% increase.

It just means that each % bonus you consider in the game will give you its exact face value. If it says extra 5% it will be exactly extra 5% regardless of other effects you might have.

In fact thats already how the damage reduction effects are calculated, as per Dalen's post that i was originally replying to.

Saying "thats not how math works" and "its middleschool level math" is quite rude, especially when you aren't getting the other person's point.

p.s. Replying to your first line: in additive example you are comparing the % increase to your base dmg, where as in multiplicative example you are comparing % increase to your actual damage done
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Rydiak
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Re: Patch Notes 12/08/2020

Post#127 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:29 pm

Grock wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:12 pm
Rydiak wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:48 am
You are comparing the value of Bloodlord to the value of your other sources of damage increase, not to the value of your actual damage done....

If you do 100 damage base, adding 5% bonus damage adds 5 damage.
If you do 100 damage base, adding 25% bonus damage adds 25 damage.
If you do 100 damage base, adding 5% bonus damage to the previous 25% bonus damage (so now it is 30% bonus damage, additive) adds 30 damage.
5 + 25 = 30....additive

If you multiplied a 5% bonus into a 25% bonus you'd get a 31.25% bonus (1.05 * 1.25)
So now that 100 damage base becomes 131.25 damage, or an increase of 31.25 damage, above the 30 damage that we'd expect. That is why it is additive and not multiplicative.

This is middleschool level math. I shouldn't have to explain it.
I'm not sure what you aren't getting here, you even provided an example that illustrates my point
Additive "stacking" of bonuses means the X bonus is just "X of your base value", as such the more bonuses you have, the less efficient further additions are.
With multiplicative "stacking" each bonus is what it is, the X increase means X increase, regardless of how many other bonuses you might have.

Let me illustrate with higher values for better visibility
You do 100 damage, you add 50% dmg increase, thats 150 damage, everything is right
You do 100 damage, you already have 100% dmg bonus, you invest into the same 50% dmg increase, your damage goes from 200 to 250, thats only 25% net increase, only a half of what you've been promised
If it was multiplicative what would happen in second example is your damage would go from 200 to 300, which is exactly 50% increase.

It just means that each % bonus you consider in the game will give you its exact face value. If it says extra 5% it will be exactly extra 5% regardless of other effects you might have.

In fact thats already how the damage reduction effects are calculated, as per Dalen's post that i was originally replying to.

Saying "thats not how math works" and "its middleschool level math" is quite rude, especially when you aren't getting the other person's point.

p.s. Replying to your first line: in additive example you are comparing the % increase to your base dmg, where as in multiplicative example you are comparing % increase to your actual damage done
You keep comparing damage bonuses against each other, and not against the damage value they are modifying. That is great if you want to say you modified your modified damage by an additional percentage amount, but not if you want to say you modified your unmodified damage by a percentage amount.

If I have an unmodified damage value of 100, and I have a 150% bonus, I am adding 150 damage onto that initial damage. 100 + 150 = 250, not 300, because we don't care how many unique sources of damage bonuses we have, we only care about the pre-modified base damage and the total sum of the damage bonuses we have.

I said it is middleschool level math because it is.
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Ekundu01
Posts: 229

Re: Patch Notes 12/08/2020

Post#128 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:29 pm

Grock wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:12 pm
Rydiak wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:48 am
You are comparing the value of Bloodlord to the value of your other sources of damage increase, not to the value of your actual damage done....

If you do 100 damage base, adding 5% bonus damage adds 5 damage.
If you do 100 damage base, adding 25% bonus damage adds 25 damage.
If you do 100 damage base, adding 5% bonus damage to the previous 25% bonus damage (so now it is 30% bonus damage, additive) adds 30 damage.
5 + 25 = 30....additive

If you multiplied a 5% bonus into a 25% bonus you'd get a 31.25% bonus (1.05 * 1.25)
So now that 100 damage base becomes 131.25 damage, or an increase of 31.25 damage, above the 30 damage that we'd expect. That is why it is additive and not multiplicative.

This is middleschool level math. I shouldn't have to explain it.
I'm not sure what you aren't getting here, you even provided an example that illustrates my point
Additive "stacking" of bonuses means the X bonus is just "X of your base value", as such the more bonuses you have, the less efficient further additions are.
With multiplicative "stacking" each bonus is what it is, the X increase means X increase, regardless of how many other bonuses you might have.

Let me illustrate with higher values for better visibility
You do 100 damage, you add 50% dmg increase, thats 150 damage, everything is right
You do 100 damage, you already have 100% dmg bonus, you invest into the same 50% dmg increase, your damage goes from 200 to 250, thats only 25% net increase, only a half of what you've been promised
If it was multiplicative what would happen in second example is your damage would go from 200 to 300, which is exactly 50% increase.

It just means that each % bonus you consider in the game will give you its exact face value. If it says extra 5% it will be exactly extra 5% regardless of other effects you might have.

In fact thats already how the damage reduction effects are calculated, as per Dalen's post that i was originally replying to.

Saying "thats not how math works" and "its middleschool level math" is quite rude, especially when you aren't getting the other person's point.

p.s. Replying to your first line: in additive example you are comparing the % increase to your base dmg, where as in multiplicative example you are comparing % increase to your actual damage done
The math is wrong from the OP illustrating the multiply vs adding. If you multiple 5% into 25% you get a 1.25% increase. Meaning you only get 26.25% increase instead of 30% increase. So adding all % damage bonuses up first gets you more damage vs multiplying them together.
Last edited by Ekundu01 on Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Rydiak
Posts: 419

Re: Patch Notes 12/08/2020

Post#129 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:33 pm

Ekundu01 wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:29 pm
Grock wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:12 pm
Rydiak wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:48 am
You are comparing the value of Bloodlord to the value of your other sources of damage increase, not to the value of your actual damage done....

If you do 100 damage base, adding 5% bonus damage adds 5 damage.
If you do 100 damage base, adding 25% bonus damage adds 25 damage.
If you do 100 damage base, adding 5% bonus damage to the previous 25% bonus damage (so now it is 30% bonus damage, additive) adds 30 damage.
5 + 25 = 30....additive

If you multiplied a 5% bonus into a 25% bonus you'd get a 31.25% bonus (1.05 * 1.25)
So now that 100 damage base becomes 131.25 damage, or an increase of 31.25 damage, above the 30 damage that we'd expect. That is why it is additive and not multiplicative.

This is middleschool level math. I shouldn't have to explain it.
I'm not sure what you aren't getting here, you even provided an example that illustrates my point
Additive "stacking" of bonuses means the X bonus is just "X of your base value", as such the more bonuses you have, the less efficient further additions are.
With multiplicative "stacking" each bonus is what it is, the X increase means X increase, regardless of how many other bonuses you might have.

Let me illustrate with higher values for better visibility
You do 100 damage, you add 50% dmg increase, thats 150 damage, everything is right
You do 100 damage, you already have 100% dmg bonus, you invest into the same 50% dmg increase, your damage goes from 200 to 250, thats only 25% net increase, only a half of what you've been promised
If it was multiplicative what would happen in second example is your damage would go from 200 to 300, which is exactly 50% increase.

It just means that each % bonus you consider in the game will give you its exact face value. If it says extra 5% it will be exactly extra 5% regardless of other effects you might have.

In fact thats already how the damage reduction effects are calculated, as per Dalen's post that i was originally replying to.

Saying "thats not how math works" and "its middleschool level math" is quite rude, especially when you aren't getting the other person's point.

p.s. Replying to your first line: in additive example you are comparing the % increase to your base dmg, where as in multiplicative example you are comparing % increase to your actual damage done
The math is wrong from the OP illustrating the multiply vs adding. If you multiple 5% into 25% you get a 1.25% increase. Meaning you only get 26.25. So adding all % damage bonuses up first gets you more damage vs multiplying them together.
You get a 1.25 percentage point increase over 30%, which totals to 31.25%.

Here, this may help you: wolframalpha.com
Rydiak/WP/85 - "That Grace WP"

Interested in Grace, but don't know where to start? Check out my Grace guide!

Try my Google Sheets-based RoR Damage Calculator!
Updated 08/13/20

Bonus RoR Calculations Sheet

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Ekundu01
Posts: 229

Re: Patch Notes 12/08/2020

Post#130 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:42 pm

Rydiak wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:33 pm
Ekundu01 wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:29 pm
Grock wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:12 pm

I'm not sure what you aren't getting here, you even provided an example that illustrates my point
Additive "stacking" of bonuses means the X bonus is just "X of your base value", as such the more bonuses you have, the less efficient further additions are.
With multiplicative "stacking" each bonus is what it is, the X increase means X increase, regardless of how many other bonuses you might have.

Let me illustrate with higher values for better visibility
You do 100 damage, you add 50% dmg increase, thats 150 damage, everything is right
You do 100 damage, you already have 100% dmg bonus, you invest into the same 50% dmg increase, your damage goes from 200 to 250, thats only 25% net increase, only a half of what you've been promised
If it was multiplicative what would happen in second example is your damage would go from 200 to 300, which is exactly 50% increase.

It just means that each % bonus you consider in the game will give you its exact face value. If it says extra 5% it will be exactly extra 5% regardless of other effects you might have.

In fact thats already how the damage reduction effects are calculated, as per Dalen's post that i was originally replying to.

Saying "thats not how math works" and "its middleschool level math" is quite rude, especially when you aren't getting the other person's point.

p.s. Replying to your first line: in additive example you are comparing the % increase to your base dmg, where as in multiplicative example you are comparing % increase to your actual damage done
The math is wrong from the OP illustrating the multiply vs adding. If you multiple 5% into 25% you get a 1.25% increase. Meaning you only get 26.25. So adding all % damage bonuses up first gets you more damage vs multiplying them together.
You get a 1.25 percentage point increase over 30%, which totals to 31.25%.

Here, this may help you: wolframalpha.com
No you don't if the coding is taking all damage bonuses and multiplying them together to calculate the damage bonus portion of the attack vs adding them you don't get 31.25%. When calculating the damage bonus portion the coding takes all the damage bonuses and adds them up so 5% + 25% added together = 30% damage bonus. If you change that to multiply 5%*25% = 26.25%. You don't get to add them together and multiply them into one another.
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