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Patch Notes 27/11/2020

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Jurki
Posts: 35

Re: Patch Notes 27/11/2020

Post#161 » Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:23 pm

Kabuco wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:04 pm You ever looked at the description of Quick Shootin?
It says something about short range. Since when is nearly 100ft short range?
Good rhetoric question which Im still willing to answer. I didnt know that the most important aim was to 100% represent an already written tooltip. A tooltip should provide information about the actual situation and since you guys were also able to change tooltips to fit the actual stuff abilities are supposed to do, I would prefer to talk about the main issue because I doubt that the changes were made because the tooltip demanded it: You cant effectively kite at close range to mid range. Might be something the former developers of the original title understood and Im pretty sure some people of the staff of return of reckoning understand too, Im sure about that. It also was one of the issues with the SH that you needed to slot an extra tactic to gain range, because without it the path wasnt viable to play (as Teefz already mentioned) and narrowing the performance of the class to only a handful ways which is the reason WHY there was a SH change coming. The fact that I have to explain that, irritates me.

The fights in this game are constantly shifting with gap closer and abilities like range knock downs etc. The reduced range would have made sense if the class had strong defenses and still a relatively high dmg output (like a dwarf with a pumpgun for example). But the truth is that the SH is fragile by nature. The main advise i give SH players who asked me for help is: keep moving and keep your distance, since it was the most important tool we had. We had to stay away from the enemies because nearly everyone and everything is able to kill us when they catch up to us which they know (hopefully). With the reduced range you took away this defining and simple characteristic of that class because now SHs are constantly in the danger zone, two steps away from enemy melees, aoe heat, constantly shooting engi turrets or a lost white lion pet with rabies.

Also: Discussions and feedback are important steps to improve the overall experience of the game. Rhetoric questions or implying that these changes are totally based on a "deep understanding of balance" are hard limitations for the community to share thoughts and to participate, which is extremely important when it comes to complex topics like balancing.
Last edited by Jurki on Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:48 pm, edited 8 times in total.

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WarHawK
Posts: 4

Re: Patch Notes 27/11/2020

Post#162 » Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:28 pm

Kabuco wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:04 pm You ever looked at the description of Quick Shootin?
It says something about short range. Since when is nearly 100ft short range?

It was "short range". that's why you had to slot a tactic for more range...

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ztil
Posts: 39

Re: Patch Notes 27/11/2020

Post#163 » Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:48 pm

Jurki wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 5:50 pm I really, really hope, as I already told a dev via discord, that you, dear developers, look at the shootin wif da wind changes and increase the range again, because the reduced range introduced by this patch really carves out the soul of this class, dont know how to explain it in another way.
I share Jurkis concerns about the changes to range with removal of SWDW 50% range increase. To be able to effectively kite most threats you need to stay outside of the 65 ft kill zone. If you're within 65 ft, or even 75ft for WL you are reachable by Witch Hunter slow and WL pounce. The range increase that we got from it was(is) basically a required tactic. Even with that increased range many players were able to close the gap with slow immunity + charge/pounce so it's wasn't exactly over powered and required good timing on all defensive abilities to suceed. :)

However I do think that the kiting ability is arguably the thing that made rSH good/unique and why the class only needed minor tweaks. I was personally hoping for something that would make it more WB viable (like some buff to splinterin arrer and/or adding some 13pt buff utility like ap drain to make it more worth it for a warband to bring one). Because I believe, that squig herders should primarily be a bow & arrow pet class, no matter if running sc's solo or in wb. Melee spec should be more like the "niche" spec instead of the primary spec. I understand the current changes is a dps increase for ST ranged squig herder, and it may perform well with guards, heals and good utilization of squig armor etc in a ST assist group. But I'm concerned that reducing it's range is changing the class playstyle in it's core and making it even less likely to be a spec for oRvR.

I think Jurkis suggestion of replacing SWDW tactic with something else and increasing the base range of all the quick shooting abilities to 100ft is a good idea. Because a tactic that is a "must have" could just as well be moved to be the default value to open up for more specialization flexibility (for example option to go aoe or go ST).

My general opinion about range is that a good rule of thumb for ranged abilities would be
* Short range 65ft (melee class range abilities like slows/pounce etc and aoe range class specs like sorc/bw aoe and sh/sw range aoe spec)
* Mid range 100ft (quick shootin sh & skirmis SW core abilities +healers)
* Long range 100-175ft+ (engis and magus, poison arrer/festering arrow built SH/SW)

Anyway, this is also just my first impressions from this. Ofcourse I will be playing and trying out these changes as much as I can and then do a more in debt analysis. (it's just that now there is a million squig herders trying to do the same thing)
Last edited by ztil on Fri Nov 27, 2020 8:10 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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catholicism198
Posts: 1092

Re: Patch Notes 27/11/2020

Post#164 » Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:49 pm

Kabuco wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:04 pm You ever looked at the description of Quick Shootin?
It says something about short range. Since when is nearly 100ft short range?
Short range and mobility... but the point of tactics is to meant to let you make up for their shortcomings and customize the mastery/class to suite your play style. Other classes were given the same tactic for the same reason.

Using your logic, “all by meself “ shouldn’t exist because the squig is meant to be a pet class.

If mythic didn’t want you to be able to customize your play style, then they wouldn’t have let you invest in multiple mastery paths.
..and you can’t stay “this isn’t live” because you’ve all said “this is what it was like on live” before.

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NSKaneda
Posts: 968

Re: Patch Notes 27/11/2020

Post#165 » Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:54 pm

catholicism198 wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:49 pm
Kabuco wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:04 pm You ever looked at the description of Quick Shootin?
It says something about short range. Since when is nearly 100ft short range?
Short range and mobility... but the point of tactics is to meant to let you make up for their shortcomings and customize the mastery/class to suite your play style. Other classes were given the same tactic for the same reason.

Using your logic, “all by meself “ shouldn’t exist because the squig is meant to be a pet class.

If mythic didn’t want you to be able to customize your play style, then they wouldn’t have let you invest in multiple mastery paths.
..and you can’t stay “this isn’t live” because you’ve all said “this is what it was like on live” before.

By that logic Throwing arm and Daemonic reach should also be removed from the game since they buff the range of mid-range tree.
Not to mention that short range for Squig Herder is bouncing tree, not quick shooting.
RoR: Burszui SH, Ropopuch SHM<|[]|>Ginnar IB, Vidarr HMR, Runatyr RP ++ REV guild ++
Live: Karak Izor -> Karak Norn - Yarpaen IB, Ginnarr SL, Volundr ENG +Ithilmar's Chosen+
* * * playing 19 classes - running out of char slots * * *

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adapter
Suspended
Posts: 420

Re: Patch Notes 27/11/2020

Post#166 » Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:55 pm

Move back "Finish 'em off" to Big Shootin' and add the increase range to a tactic at Quick Shootin'.

Big Shootin rotation feels so off right now, finish em off played a big role in rSH rotation. Seriously, this feels more like a huge nerf.
Kabuchop / Kabusquig / Kabuterimon / Tentomon

lyncher12
Posts: 542

Re: Patch Notes 27/11/2020

Post#167 » Fri Nov 27, 2020 8:14 pm

so if forts are bugged whats the purpose of orvr

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Lithenir
Posts: 370

Re: Patch Notes 27/11/2020

Post#168 » Fri Nov 27, 2020 8:23 pm

ztil wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:48 pm
Jurki wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 5:50 pm I really, really hope, as I already told a dev via discord, that you, dear developers, look at the shootin wif da wind changes and increase the range again, because the reduced range introduced by this patch really carves out the soul of this class, dont know how to explain it in another way.

I think Jurkis suggestion of replacing SWDW tactic with something else and increasing the base range of all the quick shooting abilities to 100ft is a good idea. Because a tactic that is a "must have" could just as well be moved to be the default value to open up for more specialization flexibility (for example option to go aoe or go ST).
So it was ok to take away the range increase tactic from the SW but taking it away from SH is a big thing?
SH with 100ft range on nearly every skill are mostly not even hard to catch but nearly impossible to catch if played well like Jurki and Teefz prove every day. Ofc if I was a rSH I wouldn't like the change either but it is just fair.
You still have good skills on 65ft range and now you have range-kd I think that's quiet fair and why shouldn't you take a little risk whilst still having you utility?

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black1
Posts: 13

Re: Patch Notes 27/11/2020

Post#169 » Fri Nov 27, 2020 8:28 pm

Xergon wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:21 am SquigPlayer after reading patch notes: u killing my class, why nerf!
OrderPlayer after reading patch notes: finally nerf to Squigs
same SquigPlayer starts using RangeKD and damage buffs to class: oh this is nice mauahuhauhuha!
same OrderPlayer being killed by SquigPlayer: why u buff squigs!
not rly lol

Jurki
Posts: 35

Re: Patch Notes 27/11/2020

Post#170 » Fri Nov 27, 2020 8:40 pm

Lithenir wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 8:23 pm
ztil wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:48 pm
Jurki wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 5:50 pm I really, really hope, as I already told a dev via discord, that you, dear developers, look at the shootin wif da wind changes and increase the range again, because the reduced range introduced by this patch really carves out the soul of this class, dont know how to explain it in another way.

I think Jurkis suggestion of replacing SWDW tactic with something else and increasing the base range of all the quick shooting abilities to 100ft is a good idea. Because a tactic that is a "must have" could just as well be moved to be the default value to open up for more specialization flexibility (for example option to go aoe or go ST).
So it was ok to take away the range increase tactic from the SW but taking it away from SH is a big thing?
SH with 100ft range on nearly every skill are mostly not even hard to catch but nearly impossible to catch if played well like Jurki and Teefz prove every day. Ofc if I was a rSH I wouldn't like the change either but it is just fair.
You still have good skills on 65ft range and now you have range-kd I think that's quiet fair and why shouldn't you take a little risk whilst still having you utility?
Who said that it was okay to remove the SW range tactic? But we are discussing SH related changes now. Speaking of my own experience it isnt "impossible" to catch up with me, lol. The range knock down is stationary, enforcing the issues i already explained. The thing is: we already took a "little" risk with the 100ft tactic. Also a white lion player shouldnt have any problems in catching up with a SH, even tho they arent able to perma pounce all time (atleast when they dont skill that way), ignoring other abilities at their disposal. They hadnt problems and they clearly wont have trouble now. Ofc if I was a wl player i would like these changes to imitate your answer. Also I dont think that I have a narrow opinion on this topic since I think that some changes are extremely strong and not what the SH needed.
Last edited by Jurki on Fri Nov 27, 2020 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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