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Patch Notes 27/11/2020

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Lithenir
Posts: 266

Re: Patch Notes 27/11/2020

Post#211 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:49 am

Teefz wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:36 am
Lithenir wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:31 am
catholicism198 wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:15 am


These changes look great!
All make sense and they're backed by a dedicated squig herder!
That's exactly the problem you are showing with this proposal. As "dedicated squig herder" you cannot really propose unbiased which means it's not a really balanced suggestion. Ofc devs need to figure which is worthy to look at from a bnalance point
Maybe you do not realize that I would much rather take the pre-patch squig, than this current version. If you do not believe me, you are always welcome to read my 16 pages of feedback for the rework and judge for yourself. If this was meant as a biased suggestion, surely I would have kept the crit dmg, crit chance and squig beast as M1 and got rid of something else entirely no?
I haven't said that this was a biased suggestion. I just said that you cannot make a complete balanced suggestion because you play main the class.
It is just nature that you want good things for your class. Could I make completely balanced suggestions regarding WL? I doubt so because I main the class.
I also don't see in your proposal the willingness to give up something good in exchange for another good skill. But again, that's just in the nature because you main the class.

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Klozje
Posts: 16

Re: Patch Notes 27/11/2020

Post#212 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:00 am

Lithenir wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:49 am
I haven't said that this was a biased suggestion. I just said that you cannot make a complete balanced suggestion because you play main the class.
It is just nature that you want good things for your class. Could I make completely balanced suggestions regarding WL? I doubt so because I main the class.
I also don't see in your proposal the willingness to give up something good in exchange for another good skill. But again, that's just in the nature because you main the class.
Well said, in fact we should take it further.. from now on the devs should only take advice from people who've never even played the game at all. (That way they are 100% unbiased)

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Teefz
Posts: 85

Re: Patch Notes 27/11/2020

Post#213 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:09 am

Lithenir wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:49 am
Teefz wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:36 am
Lithenir wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:31 am


That's exactly the problem you are showing with this proposal. As "dedicated squig herder" you cannot really propose unbiased which means it's not a really balanced suggestion. Ofc devs need to figure which is worthy to look at from a bnalance point
Maybe you do not realize that I would much rather take the pre-patch squig, than this current version. If you do not believe me, you are always welcome to read my 16 pages of feedback for the rework and judge for yourself. If this was meant as a biased suggestion, surely I would have kept the crit dmg, crit chance and squig beast as M1 and got rid of something else entirely no?
I haven't said that this was a biased suggestion. I just said that you cannot make a complete balanced suggestion because you play main the class.
It is just nature that you want good things for your class. Could I make completely balanced suggestions regarding WL? I doubt so because I main the class.
I also don't see in your proposal the willingness to give up something good in exchange for another good skill. But again, that's just in the nature because you main the class.
Maybe you should read it again :geek:

To clarify, this is not my proposal for the squig herder. This is me trying to restore the two mastery paths I have played for over a decade, or what is left of them after the patch. But guess what, I do not have to convince you. Go test it yourself and share your feedback. Granted you play the class and know how to play the class in several, if not all aspects of game. And then compared it to before.

Tell you what, when you have done the above, go on your shadow warrior and share that feedback as well. Because the old skirmish/kite spec got absolutely butchered on that class as well. Find any good veteran shadow warrior, who plays in a good premade - keyword being premade and not warband - and see what feedback he or she provides.

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catholicism198
Posts: 1089

Re: Patch Notes 27/11/2020

Post#214 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:18 am

Lithenir wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:31 am
catholicism198 wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:15 am
Teefz wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:07 am
Spoiler:
Image

BS:

- 100ft finisher back in big shooting where it belongs.
- Sharpnel Arrer back to 5pt ability
- Sharpened Arrer remains.
- Exploding Arrer back to BS core

QS:

- Remove Behind Ya! - add the useful range interrupt and up the dmg of that a little, since crit dmg will be replaced by old SWDW
- Add old version of SWDW.
- Da Waaagh Iz Strong remains.
- Shootin' Quicka remains.
- Shoot Thru Ya back to QS core so rSH still has aoe (2s cast still)

Morale:

- Squig Beast back to m3.
Here you go, fixed it.
These changes look great!
All make sense and they're backed by a dedicated squig herder!
That's exactly the problem you are showing with this proposal. As "dedicated squig herder" you cannot really propose unbiased which means it's not a really balanced suggestion. Ofc devs need to figure which is worthy to look at from a bnalance point
He is actually one of the least biased dedicated x-y-z players out there.
There have also been others that have actually asked that their main be nerfed/balanced because it was over performing.
As long as there is logical reasoning behind the dedicated player's suggestions, I don't see why they should be disregarded.
Their opinions offer more than standard theory-crafting based on raw data.

Heck I main an engineer/magus and have said that the cast reduction on snipe etc. is oped and that the heal is useless in rvr.
I've even said that moving Indigo fire of change to Havoc was a bad move because it allows the magus to get all their s/t damage skills as well as aegis of orange fire.

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Brutinho
Posts: 145

Re: Patch Notes 27/11/2020

Post#215 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:19 am

I can see that the more experienced rSH agree with the range issues. If you were running a rSH pre-rework without SWDW you were gimping yourself. As devs have said many times, if you are obligated to take a tactic then it means something is wrong with the mechanic/mastery.
Teefz wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 6:40 pm
Spot on. Going to add that both Shadow Warrior + Squig herder needs the range increase tactic in order to make their skirmish/quick shootin' tree viable and not feel like a big clunky mess.
I simply do not understand the need to change the base range of a class that this game has always operated around, without providing the classes with an option to spec for more range at the cost of a tactic slot - I did not understand it with the Shadow Warrior rework and I still don't.
Also, the shorter range requires the SH to get in harms way when the playstyle is the complete opposite (stay far and run away).
Jurki wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:23 pm
With the reduced range you took away this defining and simple characteristic of that class because now SHs are constantly in the danger zone, two steps away from enemy melees, aoe heat, constantly shooting engi turrets or a lost white lion pet with rabies.
ztil wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:48 pm
I share Jurkis concerns about the changes to range with removal of SWDW 50% range increase. To be able to effectively kite most threats you need to stay outside of the 65 ft kill zone. If you're within 65 ft, or even 75ft for WL you are reachable by Witch Hunter slow and WL pounce. The range increase that we got from it was(is) basically a required tactic. Even with that increased range many players were able to close the gap with slow immunity + charge/pounce so it's wasn't exactly over powered and required good timing on all defensive abilities to suceed. :)
I think Jurkis suggestion of replacing SWDW tactic with something else and increasing the base range of all the quick shooting abilities to 100ft is a good idea. Because a tactic that is a "must have" could just as well be moved to be the default value to open up for more specialization flexibility (for example option to go aoe or go ST).
I don't believe that starting to modify abilities and other game mechanics will fix anything as there are way too many factors. It is not just pounce. Which is fine as WL/mSH need to be able to catch casters.
wargrimnir wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 10:17 pm
Maybe Pounce at 65' is way too much mobility.

You have WH ranged slow, WL charge + pull, Slayer charge, by getting closer to hit enemies in the frontline you are already getting exposed to BW, engis, DPS AM by 35 ft difference. Even before the changes to range you were a bit exposed to engi's range now you have almost 100ft difference in range. As it is you are unable to hit the oil with your dots (all other ranged abilities get blocked) so some adjustments would also need to be made. I don't think that is the good direction though.

You have players that are well versed with the class that are giving you legit feedback with the spriti to help make changes in the right direction.

Probably the tweak that makes most sense would be to make QS 90-100ff baseline and have one of the damage tactics have a range reduction. If you like dealing more damage and in your face playstyle you can still go for it, but if you prefer kiting and staying afar you can as well. (Skirmish the same and AoE tactic adjusted to do the same)


PS:
Grunbag wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:46 pm
- Pet range is 100 feet for gas (same as live for all pets)
Their AA seems to be shorter, they always get closer than me to targets that i am able to hit from 100ft. I will bug report it :)

Tastes Like Chiken not healing when used (in and out of squig armor). Combat logs shows: Heals you for 0 (1600 overhealed) but HP does not get healed.
[BG] Amelios RR8X
[SQ] Gittens RR8X
[WE] Flaquita RR6X
[KOBS] Quarterback RR6X

User avatar
JarlBerzirk
Posts: 150

Re: Patch Notes 27/11/2020

Post#216 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:53 am

Teefz wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:09 am
Lithenir wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:49 am
Teefz wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:36 am


Maybe you do not realize that I would much rather take the pre-patch squig, than this current version. If you do not believe me, you are always welcome to read my 16 pages of feedback for the rework and judge for yourself. If this was meant as a biased suggestion, surely I would have kept the crit dmg, crit chance and squig beast as M1 and got rid of something else entirely no?
I haven't said that this was a biased suggestion. I just said that you cannot make a complete balanced suggestion because you play main the class.
It is just nature that you want good things for your class. Could I make completely balanced suggestions regarding WL? I doubt so because I main the class.
I also don't see in your proposal the willingness to give up something good in exchange for another good skill. But again, that's just in the nature because you main the class.
Maybe you should read it again :geek:

To clarify, this is not my proposal for the squig herder. This is me trying to restore the two mastery paths I have played for over a decade, or what is left of them after the patch. But guess what, I do not have to convince you. Go test it yourself and share your feedback. Granted you play the class and know how to play the class in several, if not all aspects of game. And then compared it to before.

Tell you what, when you have done the above, go on your shadow warrior and share that feedback as well. Because the old skirmish/kite spec got absolutely butchered on that class as well. Find any good veteran shadow warrior, who plays in a good premade - keyword being premade and not warband - and see what feedback he or she provides.
Imagine arguing with Teefz, probably one of the most dedicated players on the server and one of the best SH ever, about a SH rework, when you don't even play the class. You can't make this stuff up. From a newbie 40 squiggie thanks for all the time and dedication you've put into trying to help rework the class Teefz. Keep on bouncin an shootin

Cptkud
Posts: 18

Re: Patch Notes 27/11/2020

Post#217 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:11 am

Zhentarim wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:32 am
NSKaneda wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:07 am
Quick shooting range is nerfed. I am one sad and frustrated gobbo :(
Is the range only 65ft?
Yup, this way WLs don't even need to waste any time with pounce or charge, they can just throw their Axes.

Cptkud
Posts: 18

Re: Patch Notes 27/11/2020

Post#218 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:44 am

Jurki wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 5:50 pm
Evening. Im really surprised by the changes. I can see the potential in some changes but Im afraid that most of the stuff wasnt really needed to improve the sh (as i mentioned in my proposal).

Now big shootin is more viable making the sh yet another stationary rdps the game actually had enough already or a melee meatball where you cant even see the character model lol.

Now the high mobility aspect of the class is nearly gone since the range is so heavily limited now that you cant (even if you wanted to) react in dismounting chasing enemies or keeping them away from you which you must since the fragile nature of a gobbo (as it should be).

It really feels weird to play quick shooting now. I could understand the changes if that path is like a hybrid one combining skirmish range skills and melee skills but reducing the range is really just indirectly blocking out an extremely important aspect of that path which was class defining, like the core of the class itself: the mobile, micromanaging, fast paced gameplay.
I wrote in my SH change proposal that it might be helpful, without buffing SH into the next dimension, to actually give all quick shootin abilities 100ft and to change the effect of the tactic (SWDW), as the developers did, which is nice to see. But the reduced range is a crucial and heavy limitation to the kiting aspect of the class, which was the most important tool when playing quick shootin BECAUSE the gobbo itself is fragile but fast, green and mean at the same time.

Im playing that class, as many of you guys might know, for several years and reading the patch notes and after that testing the new changes myself in the lake and sc was a really devastating experience if Im honest. I also know that it was the first step to make the changes and that feedback is helping the devs to better adjust, so i hope that there are some other SH's (and not just the melee, big shootin warband guys who have a rr45 - sorry if Im rude) who can share their thoughts too and hopefully have an impact on the next decisions of the devs regarding the SH changes.

I really, really hope, as I already told a dev via discord, that you, dear developers, look at the shootin wif da wind changes and increase the range again, because the reduced range introduced by this patch really carves out the soul of this class, dont know how to explain it in another way.

If you developers want some help or thoughts in adjusting the changes, just let me know, I would love to help.
I have played rSH since the beginning of live. I couldn't have said it better myself.

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Onigokko0101
Posts: 151

Re: Patch Notes 27/11/2020

Post#219 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 4:24 am

Lithenir wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:31 am
catholicism198 wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:15 am
Teefz wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:07 am
Spoiler:
Image

BS:

- 100ft finisher back in big shooting where it belongs.
- Sharpnel Arrer back to 5pt ability
- Sharpened Arrer remains.
- Exploding Arrer back to BS core

QS:

- Remove Behind Ya! - add the useful range interrupt and up the dmg of that a little, since crit dmg will be replaced by old SWDW
- Add old version of SWDW.
- Da Waaagh Iz Strong remains.
- Shootin' Quicka remains.
- Shoot Thru Ya back to QS core so rSH still has aoe (2s cast still)

Morale:

- Squig Beast back to m3.
Here you go, fixed it.
These changes look great!
All make sense and they're backed by a dedicated squig herder!
That's exactly the problem you are showing with this proposal. As "dedicated squig herder" you cannot really propose unbiased which means it's not a really balanced suggestion. Ofc devs need to figure which is worthy to look at from a bnalance point
Yup, as we all know experts in a subject are never consulted because they are biased in that subject. Its why all our science is never done by scientists, becuase it would be bias.
Khrylashe - Zealot
Devarien - Blackguard
Bigdisc- Magus
Aendael - Warrior Priest
Nusku- Bright Wizard

sogeou
Posts: 325

Re: Patch Notes 27/11/2020

Post#220 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:08 am

Teefz wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:09 am
Lithenir wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:49 am
Teefz wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:36 am


Maybe you do not realize that I would much rather take the pre-patch squig, than this current version. If you do not believe me, you are always welcome to read my 16 pages of feedback for the rework and judge for yourself. If this was meant as a biased suggestion, surely I would have kept the crit dmg, crit chance and squig beast as M1 and got rid of something else entirely no?
I haven't said that this was a biased suggestion. I just said that you cannot make a complete balanced suggestion because you play main the class.
It is just nature that you want good things for your class. Could I make completely balanced suggestions regarding WL? I doubt so because I main the class.
I also don't see in your proposal the willingness to give up something good in exchange for another good skill. But again, that's just in the nature because you main the class.
Maybe you should read it again :geek:

To clarify, this is not my proposal for the squig herder. This is me trying to restore the two mastery paths I have played for over a decade, or what is left of them after the patch. But guess what, I do not have to convince you. Go test it yourself and share your feedback. Granted you play the class and know how to play the class in several, if not all aspects of game. And then compared it to before.

Tell you what, when you have done the above, go on your shadow warrior and share that feedback as well. Because the old skirmish/kite spec got absolutely butchered on that class as well. Find any good veteran shadow warrior, who plays in a good premade - keyword being premade and not warband - and see what feedback he or she provides.

SH changes look good, hope they stay. Everyone wanted SH changes when SW got nerfed(buffed) which everyone said were buffs. But nobody listed. Now you get to enjoy the removed ranged and get ready to hide so far in the back you do nothing.

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