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Patch Notes 27/11/2020

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Baaldr
Posts: 24

Re: Patch Notes 27/11/2020

Post#281 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:17 pm

Love the SoR changes! and also the new training construct info ! cant comment to much on SH changes but it looks like they will be better in a grp setting and maybe slightly worse in solo?

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Stinkyweed
Posts: 403

Re: Patch Notes 27/11/2020

Post#282 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:25 pm

I played for about 30mins solo roam and SC with a skirmish build + rKD and armor penetration.

Overall I do dislike the 75ft range limit for skirmish, but the damage output seems a quite a bit better due to additional crit and armor penetration. I need to test quite a bit more, of course, and be more aware of surroundings since I am closer to the fight...but I don't think its an end of the world / sky is falling mistake. It may even make me bring the herder out some more while I continue to test.
Stinkyweed SquigHerder rr84
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oaliaen
Posts: 874

Re: Patch Notes 27/11/2020

Post#283 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:28 pm

Spoiler:
maxonian wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:31 pm
Small disclaimer: I main rSH on RoR and have mained rSH for years on live :)

As some SH players have stated in this topic, I too would rather have the old pre-rework SH than what we currently got. Reason for this being that rSH always felt (and demanded!) to be very fluid and dynamic on the battlefield, always on the go, - that was the essence of this class, but now this is pretty much gone.

Also I will do myself and invite every player that is going to share their thoughts and feedback regarding rSH to preface their message or paragraphs with what game context they are referring to, as large scale RVR lake wb vs wb fights plays are different to solo roam, which are different to 6v6, which are different to keep/fort siege stages. I think this is crucial. I believe even in this thread I've witnessed person A mention something regarding rSH's performance in one context and got counter-arguments from person B implying a completely different game context, which makes it near impossible to find common ground and have a constructive dialog.

I would like to share my experiences and thoughts regarding rSH in
[keep/fort sieges]:

65ft feels awful during keep/fort standoff because:

* Hitting Oil is much more dangerous now, since 2 of rSH's dots (Yer Bleeding and Rotten Arrer) now have 65ft base range, which means that you have to come closer than any other destro rDPS (sorcs, shammies and even maguses all get the luxury of standing at a greater range), separating yourself from your wb, thus making you that much more visible to enemy defenders on the walls and when they start focusing you, you have that much more distance to cover on foot to break fire now.

* Applying your dots/debuffs to enemy backline when door is down and during funnel phase requires you to almost be on your tanks' backs, absolutely eating up all the AOE damage order is dishing out, which a) very quickly kills your squig, and that in turn makes slotting newly introduced pet-dependent tactics (Sharpened Arrers=25% armor pen and Shooting Quicka=50% AA haste) very questionable, b) puts excessive pressure on your healers to keep your fragile green bum alive or c) makes you need to back out from this position fast, thus removing your DPS/pressure from enemies and making you a less valuable member of the warband overall, compared to other destro rDPS

If I had to pick one most valuable ability of rSH -- guys, I know rSH has a whole bag of tricks and utility skills for different situations – but if I had to single out one skill that makes the biggest contribution in wb context – barrel to the head, pick one type of situation – it would be Rotten Arrer, spammable 98ft heal debuff (as it was just a few days ago). With that taken away, specifically range not really being feasible in keep/fort situations, what rSHs are left with?

In other words, there is of course always an option not to use QS abilities during standoff, and only use 100ft abilities but let's take a closer look at them?

- Plink, Lots o'Arrers and What blocks – 2 direct damage and one supplemental to them ability which makes rSHs invade and compete in raw sustained DPS domain of sorcs and maguses, a competition rSH will never (and should never) be able to come ahead in due to nature of the classes. Better than nothing but why bring a rSH to Fort defense or attack when you could bring a magus or sorc?

- Shrapnel Arrer – range reducing debuff. SWs are kinda your only target during standoff, since healers are far back/behind the columns etc and BWs and engies dont need to have direct LOS for destro backline to hit it with their AOE abilities. Dont get me wrong Shrapnel Arrer is nice and totally useable but still's it's a 5sec cd utility skill, recipients of which are mostly SWs. How much is one debuffed Sw going to help your warband push in or def enemy push? A little bit. What boggles my mind is that debuffed SW would still have 75ft range on their Broadhead Arrow (if they are not using AOE tactic), – BA being THE gem of an ability of Skirmisher tree, 100ft, 3x stackable – while not debuffed rSH now sits at 65ft for their heal debuff (THE gem ability of QS tree for rSH).

Let's reverse this situation, just to magnify and underline the discrepancy: not debuffed SW 100ft, debuffed rSH 49ft with their prime “medium range” tree abilities. Wow.
I'm not proposing to make Yer Bleedin 100ft and 3x stackable to mirror SW, I'm totally fine with the old status quo of BA having 100ft range ST/65ft AOE, 3x stackable and Yer Bleedin/Rotten Arrer having 98ft not stackable but spammable. Kind of the same range, different skills, different uses and different flavor to the classes but seems balanced to me.

- Choking Arrer – 30sec cd silence. Situational during standoff. But you are rarely going to get healer or BW in your crosshair during funnel phase, because of reasons stated above. Useless against Sws.

- Not So Fast – 20sec cd range kd. Very strong addition to rSH in recent rework. But unfortunately in keep/fort siege context, whether your target is knocked down or not, you are likely not going to kill your enemy without them having incoming heal debuff on.

- Exploding Arrer – 13 mastery pts (sic!) PBAOE punt on 20sec cd. Definitely has it's uses if destro tanks/melee push through the funnel was successful but there are still tons of alive order rDPS and healers on the sides/stairs. Very strong addition to rSH. But not worth 13 mastery points slot skill IMO.

So with QS tree abilities largely invalidated during fort/keep sieges (due to short range), rSH has to rely on BS. But then this dreadful question looms over – Why bring rSH into wb at all? Get magus, get sorc. This feels bad.


PROPOSALS:

1) Shoot Thru Ya
Back to core ability. @Wargrimnir said in this thread that the only other option for Shoot Thru Ya was for it to be gone. But why? Why not leave it as it was? What is the reasoning behind this change? Was it because 'the AOE spec' of SH is mSH and thus no other AOE skills should be accessed outside of this spec? I think even order players never stated that Shoot Thru Ya is OP and should be toned down because rSH are totally thwarting their fort/keep funnel pushes. And that says something, considering how each faction is at the throat of their opposing one. IMO Shoot Thru Ya was in a perfect spot: 1) The only real AOE skill of rSH 2) Okay damage. Doesnt need to be tuned up or down 3) Drawback of exposing yourself at 65ft range (i.e. Lag for 2 sec during a Fort def when order pushes through the destro funnel and you suddenly find yourself in a sea of slayers, WLs and order tanks, rooted or knocked down and then shortly after with a cute gray panel with a timer and word 'Respawn' on it) 4) Great for PVE trash clearing with Expert Skirmisher. Solid skill with hefty advantages (real AOE, okay dmg, cast on move) and just as serious drawbacks (2 sec cast, 65ft range).

2) Finish Em Off
Back to 13 pt BS mastery skill. Having finisher have 65ft range is very awkward. A lot of burst potential gone with the range changed to 65ft. Lack of Finish Em off reduces BS path to being mere plinkin-machine.

3) Not So Fast
Moved to QS with ranged reduced to 65ft.

4) Run-n-Shoot, Rotten Arrer, Yer bleeding
Range increased to 98/100ft innate. Notice I'm not suggesting to revert Shootin Wif Da Wind tactic to it's previous state. So this still leaves other QS abilities – Stop Running, Behind Ya, Red Tipped Arrer and Not So fast (as per (3)) at 65ft range.

IMO, these proposed changes are not as radical as some that players stated in this thread i.e. revert SWDW to it's original state or even make SWDW in it's previous state core. But that being said, I agree that 65ft is NO range for rSH to be at from their enemies. Too squishy on the defence. Or too useless on the offence if you stay farther than 65ft and rely on current-state BS skills and disregard your other (dare I say class defining) abilities.

If devteam is absolutely hell-bent on having QS tree limited to 65ft, that would really be strange for SWs BA and SFA to keep 100ft range (not to mention having stackable BA). Doesnt seem fair.

Mobility and fluidity is the heart of this class. At 65ft rSH is much more likely to be dead than be alive and mobile. So rSHs stay back and plink. With mobility gone, spirit of rSH is gone.



With all that being said, I want to thank devs for their continued support and development of the game. You guys have made an incredibly fun and wholesome game. Hat's off to you! :)


P.S. First post btw :-D

Edits: Formatting
I hope dev to see this...
Silently we bide our time
Soon we'll pay you back
For all the wrongs you've done our kind
For the stabwounds in our back.

Current Status: Retired temporarily

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zulnam
Posts: 459

Re: Patch Notes 27/11/2020

Post#284 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:17 pm

Saw these patch notes and decided to dust off the old SH. It was my first 40 on RoR and i enjoyed leveling it up a lot (back then there were still T2-3 lakes separately and Big Shootin' was king).

This is not the opinion of someone who mains SH, but I was looking forward to the upcoming rSH changes. So at first glance, to me, it looks like:
  • Shoot Thru Ya now a morale. I like that. It's a good strong dmg morale.
  • Behind Ya! now core. 'Kay. Mixed with the new tactic I can see it being good. Almost two finishers now (this + Finish 'Em Off). Positional though so not always available.
  • Red Tipped Arrer. Interesting. Basically it seems to me we're meant to be caster harassers (range silence, range interrupt, 75% range debuff).
  • Finish 'Em Off. Oh wow. There goes my favorite Big Shootin' build (which handled fairly well in oRvR). *sigh* Maybe Explodin' Arrer's good.
  • Shootin' Wif Da Wind. Of course there are very few cases when you argue you didn't want a tactic to change to extra crit and dmg. This is great. Problem is it replaces a tactic that was core to how rSH were played. So far I don't see any big gains to justify such a big gutting.
  • Da Waaagh Iz Strong. Went from 'ehhh' to 'mehhh'. If it's capped at once a second I don't know how that can be useful in any way. Even if it wasn't it sounds pretty weak for a tactic slot.
  • Splinterin' Arrer removed. Feels a bit harsh. I don't wanna go through this again, but this was the little aoe SH had.
  • Shootin' Quicka. Ok so just to make it clear; no more AoE for rSH. The very, very little it did before, no more. That said this is not too bad. 50% autoattack.
  • Shrapnel Arrer core. Ok. Again, really feels like we're being given a "sign" to go for the casters.
  • Not so Fast! ranged stun, always good.
  • Explodin’ Arrer. Not sure. Tried it. To start with, everyone in organised WBs now how situational aoe punts are (and how much they can ruin a plan if used poorly). The punt itself is very small (if you wanna push someone off a cliff make sure they're in 4 feet or less from it). It might be interesting to see it in action during a fort attack, but i don't think i'll be playing SH enough to try it out this way.
  • Sharpened Arrers. Very good imo. Low enough to be in any ranged spec, i see it becoming a must-use tactic in time for rSH.
Not gonna go over mSH changes.

Pets are getting some pretty big changes too. Thankfully this came as their survivability has been buffed.
  • Basic Squig. 25% chance on hit to get 50% of that on your squig (basically a personal guard) would be great, if SH could survive that many hits to begin with. I can see this having potential with some tweaks (reduce % but have it always; a personal guard).
  • Horned Squig. 10% parry strikethrough. Cool, i guess. Still don't see replacing my spiked or gas squig. Maybe a 5% less chance to be defended overall would've made me seriously consider it.
  • Gas Squig. Now that Shootin' Wif Da Wind has been... changed, i will probably keep this bad boy next to me 24/7. Also Spore Cloud now heals on frenzy? that sounds cool pretty cool; i can see it being added to a SHs rotation if they can handle the extra buttons.
Don't wanna go through all of core but I will just say that i am really digging the new Tastes like Chicken.

Overall a mixed bag for the SH, imo. Sharpened Arrers is good, and we got our stun from a pet ability to one we control ourselves. A lot of caster supression has been made core (Silence, range debuffer, interrupt). But I don't see the Shootin' Wif Da Wind falling well with any rSH mainer. Thanks to the new tactics Quick Shootin does more damage, but the range nerf is a big price to pay for a class renown for breaking on impact with a lady bug. This makes Invader set + Gas Squig mandatory to get to at least 80 feet range. A bit more survivability has been given to us (Tastes like Chicken changes) but I doubt any rSH actually embraces this change happily.

All the aoe has been removed (ok, no big loss, ha ha) and I don't really see Explodin' Arrer having the impact expected. AoE punts have never been received with cheers by organised warbands and in the pug RvR world I see it having potential to be a ranged GTDC (giving out free immunities to the enemy (although it is fun to make the casters fly randomy :lol: )). This change has also made Big Shootin' feel clunky and broken to me, as there is no big finisher to top off your (potential) burst from Plink and Poison Arrer spam.

I see a lot more focus is being placed on using our pets. Ok. I think it's a good idea, especially if we keep tweaking pet survivability. SHs have one problem however. We don't have a pet heal. To my knowledge, this is the only case among all the pet classes in the game. It feels on par as tanks and their core archetype abilities (guard, challenge etc.) so imo it should be added sooner rather than later.

In my opinion rSH balance is not over and should be monitored closely. The damage has been increased but the role is spottier than ever. Why would you want a rSH in your warband? No AoE (except an AoE punt :roll: ), weak debuffs (yeah we have heal debuff, but almost every dps class and their tanks have heal debuffs). Can harass some casters but that's about it, and only one at a time. And i'm not sure the damage is there to justify them as dps in the ST group (would like to see some numbers from a rSH in war/sov). In fact, that's the only place I can see a Quick Shootin rSH shine, if played properly and very well geared. But more classes fighting over the few spots in the ST group is no way to go.
SW, Kotbs, IB, Slayer, Mara, SH

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whitebeardcz
Posts: 20

Re: Patch Notes 27/11/2020

Post#285 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:02 pm

SoR... For me this is worst change in this patch. SoR was usefull, for smaller guilds very usefull. If you don´t have the chance to communicate with bigger ones, then you simply look at SoR and you know what to do. Now it is about searching for enemy. Couple of minutes just running and searching and wondering, if Iam really in active zone or not. For no lifers and nerds may be super, but for someone, who wants to log for couple of minutes and to play intensivly rvr, this is disadvantage and not a good change.
Gudmunnd Silverbeard, RR81 dwarf engineer
Guudmund Bronzebeard, RR60+ dwarf slayer
Guudmundia, RR40+ human bright wizard

Arkteryx
Posts: 14

Re: Patch Notes 27/11/2020

Post#286 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 9:37 pm

Just checking, has the career builder been fully updated? It looks like most of the SH changes have been made but I don't know all the other classes well enough to know if they're up to date. It only claims to be current as of three months ago (09/02, unless that means February in which case it's even worse), makes me leery of trusting it too much.

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Brutinho
Posts: 145

Re: Patch Notes 27/11/2020

Post#287 » Sun Nov 29, 2020 1:30 am

lyncher12 wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:41 pm
people just want to brainafk in forts spamming ranged aoe and are very envious of sw ability to do so. not that these changes aren't bad for the 5 people that enjoyed playing single target rsh
Sulorie wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 3:19 pm
For this range aoe there are already magus and sorc. SH adds melee aoe and with it's cd increaser and high mobility you have abilities other destro melee dd don't have.
Onigokko0101 wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 3:47 pm
The problem is Destro really has ONE good and viable ranged AoE and thats Magus. Its been gone over again and again on the forums, but Sorc's long range AoE is pitiful, and most of its AoE is mid-close range.
Furthermore, why is there an issue with giving Destro another viable ranged AoE? because they have 3 melee AoE? Why not give Order a third melee AoE in that case.
Its weird to me to have such a glaring difference between realms, as its not even about class identity/balance or whatnot. Let both realms have equal footing on ranged/melee
You guys are so disconnected from the actual conversation about rSH tweaks. None of the most experience players even proposed AoE changes to QS because it is understood that SH has in on their Boucin' Mastery. It seems that you are purposely focusing on the rant of a few lowbie SH complaining they are not SWs.

What it is trying to be done is to tone down QS damage and give it a longer range back in different alternatives (this could also work for SWs just FYI) or to make certain tactics that increase damage a negative effect such as lowering the range (so you have a similar situation to SW with their AoE and less range tactic).

Don't take it personal guys and don't get distracted by people asking for a mid range AOE SH, that is not the right way to go and it is not what is been tried to get accomplish.

If you want to know about the recommendations Jurki gave before the rework you can read them here viewtopic.php?f=15&t=42380
[BG] Amelios RR8X
[SQ] Gittens RR8X
[WE] Flaquita RR6X
[KOBS] Quarterback RR6X

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catholicism198
Posts: 1089

Re: Patch Notes 27/11/2020

Post#288 » Sun Nov 29, 2020 3:02 am

Grunbag wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:04 pm
Snigz wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:35 pm
Grunbag wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:31 am


With stat exchange in squig armor it’s possible to have an hybrid spec

Sorry but seems you were not really playing the mSH class. It is an interesting thought to constantly switch and enhance the gameplay, I like that. But this patch is far from enabling that.
I have to give a gcd to come out apply the interrupt. Most cases you will already miss the interrupt, then the 5cd on squig armor is not finished so I have to wait plus an other gcd to get back.
For what? what skill I get that is useful and worth to come out while specced to the melee tree with tactics?
Can not spec rotten even after 70+ if I would like to have my melee spells lol.
I could do choking or shrapnel and some st shooting while being way more vulnerable. And I dont have a squig because I need ABM to be viable. Get rid of that and you gut the squig aoe dmg. So again, really no sense to come out and switch in cities or other open rvr wb fights for mSH. I can see some roaming small scale hybrid build where you can utilise this switching more. But not in main aoe melee spec.
Thats why I feel this patch is not really thought through.
Squig armor ignore global cooldown like all stance so you don’t need to waste any GCD. You have tool to get instant back jump if you’re not safe .
The goal is not to make hybrid spec viable in all aspect of the game , just make it possible as it wasn’t before .
We will continue to focus on making pet viable and fix the survivabilty issues , and probably get rid of ABM / loner after that. Pet career having to remove its pet to be viable makes no sense. But we can’t fix all pet design issue in one try.
Hybrid specs will never be viable outside of questing, as you are severely gimping yourself by going hybrid.
While gear stats can flip between melee and range, mastery bonuses and renown points do not, which results in poor stat distribution and reduced effectiveness in every role.

All these changes have done is force a ranged archetype to go melee. Yes, squig herders are 100% meant to be the ranged archetype for greenskins, not melee.

With regards to the "uselessness" or redundancy of the moral (soothing mushrooms,) changing the effect would have been a better choice than removing.


I'm all for making some changes, heck, I even suggested the horned squig change years ago, but while theory-crafting can be fun, it is rarely effective when discussed with people in a vacuum.

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Cptkud
Posts: 18

Re: Patch Notes 27/11/2020

Post#289 » Sun Nov 29, 2020 4:05 am

Brutinho wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 1:30 am
lyncher12 wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:41 pm
people just want to brainafk in forts spamming ranged aoe and are very envious of sw ability to do so. not that these changes aren't bad for the 5 people that enjoyed playing single target rsh
Sulorie wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 3:19 pm
For this range aoe there are already magus and sorc. SH adds melee aoe and with it's cd increaser and high mobility you have abilities other destro melee dd don't have.
Onigokko0101 wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 3:47 pm
The problem is Destro really has ONE good and viable ranged AoE and thats Magus. Its been gone over again and again on the forums, but Sorc's long range AoE is pitiful, and most of its AoE is mid-close range.
Furthermore, why is there an issue with giving Destro another viable ranged AoE? because they have 3 melee AoE? Why not give Order a third melee AoE in that case.
Its weird to me to have such a glaring difference between realms, as its not even about class identity/balance or whatnot. Let both realms have equal footing on ranged/melee
You guys are so disconnected from the actual conversation about rSH tweaks. None of the most experience players even proposed AoE changes to QS because it is understood that SH has in on their Boucin' Mastery. It seems that you are purposely focusing on the rant of a few lowbie SH complaining they are not SWs.

What it is trying to be done is to tone down QS damage and give it a longer range back in different alternatives (this could also work for SWs just FYI) or to make certain tactics that increase damage a negative effect such as lowering the range (so you have a similar situation to SW with their AoE and less range tactic).

Don't take it personal guys and don't get distracted by people asking for a mid range AOE SH, that is not the right way to go and it is not what is been tried to get accomplish.

If you want to know about the recommendations Jurki gave before the rework you can read them here viewtopic.php?f=15&t=42380
Completely agree, AOE is not what the rSH needs. That 65ft range is so brutal! Got to test it today, I had such a rough time. Half the abilities are 65ft the others are 100ft which screws up my rotations every time. Moving Finish em off to that tree hurts even more.

BrutalWyrm
Posts: 9

Re: Patch Notes 27/11/2020

Post#290 » Sun Nov 29, 2020 4:17 am

whitebeardcz wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:02 pm
SoR... For me this is worst change in this patch. SoR was usefull, for smaller guilds very usefull. If you don´t have the chance to communicate with bigger ones, then you simply look at SoR and you know what to do. Now it is about searching for enemy. Couple of minutes just running and searching and wondering, if Iam really in active zone or not. For no lifers and nerds may be super, but for someone, who wants to log for couple of minutes and to play intensivly rvr, this is disadvantage and not a good change.
Dont worry. Look for open warbands and see where they are, or look for areas that have some AAO and you'll be in the action in no time. There's even a t4 chat channel where you can ask anyone where the action is at. This isnt even a minor inconvenience. Take a minute of your time communicating with your faction or making a modest effort to click a few buttons and you'll see there's nothing worth complaining about.

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