Patch Notes 28/05/2021

[nonfactor]

This was probably the best post I have read here in a while.

Honestly, the biggest surprise of this patch is not the NB removal itself but how eloquently well put are warg's posts on the subject and given his opinion on NB as well as his influence over the dev team I am pretty surprised that this change managed to get through.

[Sulorie]

You forgot the biggest "addon" that provides a huge advantage: discord.

lol, indeed! and absolutely still a legal function in the game as "follow", which can be written 100% to the botling list (the character performs actions (moving) in the game without the participation of a Human).

You found the loophole, we should investigate further into this issue.

[krakatoag]

Spoiler:

"Acceptable for the past decade" is debatable. AoR ignored blatant cheating for years until it died, so I wouldn't look to them for what's acceptable; several RoR devs/team-members voiced their opposition towards NB and a desire to get rid of it from the start but were limited by client control - nothing to do with 'acceptability'. I acknowledge the point though that its not being disabled/banned would imply that it was considered acceptable, and for a lot of players without background knowledge of the huge controversy around the addon (which goes back to AoR), this might seem like an arbitrary, out-of-the-blue change.

2nd paragraph starts with a nice strawman - I know it's hard for some people to believe, but some of us aren't against NB because we need a scapegoat to rely on when we can't confront how terrible we are at this game (that's obviously just one of my reasons).

I also think you're misrepresenting NB here, both its capabilities and the types of players (and their skill levels) who use it and get the most out of it. But we're probably not going to agree on either, and the latter point in particular can't really be resolved without stats.

I guess it ultimately comes down to each person's views on addons with conditional decision-making capabilities - whether you accept them in principle and, if not, whether you oppose them vehemently enough to consider the risk to population from disabling them worth it. Considering some of the actions (and inactions) taken on RoR, and the general ethos of "there's the door" from certain staff and for much of its time, appealing to population seems to me a little ironic. But in the end, a stance on pvp automation has to be taken and I guess the devs/team have done so.

They certainly did not ignore blatant cheating, along with a whole lot of lesser offenses. Since you mentioned a strawman, that's a pretty big one. There was absolutely an active GM team on live, and they did what they could with a limited staff covering dozens of servers. They weren't properly staffed to support a live service towards the end by any means, but that doesn't mean they simply allowed cheating to happen while turning a blind eye.

It was a bit of a strawman, but it was based largely on the reactions in this thread. There's plenty of reasons to have used NB in the past. The majority of people are casual players who would use it to perform a little better or make some simple rotations to alleviate the stress on their hands. That's not to dismiss that people would certainly use any advantage they can find at a high level. My argument was more that NB doesn't provide the sort of advantages that people commonly attribute to it when it's more likely people already know how to make those decisions themselves.

Using NB for the sort of myths it's portrayed as causes a lot more skills to be burned in situations that you don't necessarily want them to be. You have to keep your conditional reactive abilities outside of NB, it just doesn't manage them well enough. If you're playing with CC/interrupts/detaunts in your (this doesn't exist) one-key-to-rule-them-all NB script, you're not winning anything aside from maybe specific 1v1 matches that specific sequence is tailored for. There's certainly more than enough more impactful conditions outside of pure button pushing skill that impacts fighting in all different formats. Kiting, picking targets, group support, morale drops, pivoting to new targets, clearing tanks or staggering healers, slowing down to regen AP for your next burst rotation. NB doesn't teach you to do any of these things, you can't program this stuff, but you absolutely need it to be successful in organized PvP.

Reading through the past several hundred posts there has been a hostile and aggressive tone towards the players who relied on NB to provide them a pleasant game experience. Ostracizing the limited community en-masse is damaging to the health of the server. Yes, we do make some changes that we tell people to deal with, particularly when it comes to balance. That's part of the MMO experience, classes change over time. Meta shifts. Whether people like it or not is part of the agreement you have here, change keeps the game fresh. This is something a little different. Banning and openly being discriminatory/dismissive towards a large class of players who have been around as long as anyone else is not beneficial, only damaging. There is only one net change in population, and it's negative. You're not changing the duration on a cooldown, or moving CC from one spec to another. You're telling people they're cheaters, scumbags, they deserved it, good riddance, etc. It's disrespectful to players affected both in the response they received for speaking out about it, and for enforcing it in the first place when it's become, despite the flawed arguments, a controversial but otherwise popular addon.

It's a slippery slope as well. There are lots of addons that provide loads of beneficial information that strongly dictate how to play the game. Automation is absolutely present for anyone that uses miraclegrow for apothecary. Swiftassist allows you to press a single button and your entire warband can focus fire on the same target. Buffhead specifically has a list and guide of high impact abilities that it notifies you are present so you can immediately cleanse/sever/shatter/taunt (maybe that's where it's from). Enemy is a far better version of the default UI, and customizable to perfectly fit your aesthetic or information needs, not to mention the ability to track morale pips and AP of other party members. Healgrid allows click casting (I didn't know that worked, but so I've heard).

Addons are designed specifically to enhance your gameplay. They ALL provide some benefit, and the best ones provide significantly more benefit than others. Throwing NB to the curb opens the door to question what other addons should be removed. If it's automation that's a problem, that excludes MiracleGrow. If it's conditionals, Buffhead would be performing at a very high level for providing that information that's otherwise significantly obfuscated by the UI. I've long opposed opening this can of worms because it asks a whole lot of questions about what should be allowed, not to mention attempting to block something only pushes things into the shadows. The benefit that everyone could enjoy, despite being controversial, will now likely only be available to people in specific discords where they're fairly certain no one will leak information. It pushes basic ability sequencing to people that have physical macro keyboards and mice available, which isn't something we can detect anyway. It doesn't remove the problem, it just makes it less obvious and more likely that people will go looking for something shady instead of using a freely available addon that gives them the experience they're looking for.

This was probably the best post I have read here in a while.

From my end 4 things to implore that we shouldn't open this can of worms with NB removal.

1. There is a lot of misinformation as to what NB does and doesn't do and it has impacted peoples perception.
2. Curtailing or removing it greatly and disproportionately impacts some classes way more than others. E.g., I don't need to use NB on my KOTBS, or most dps classes however I won't play IB without it, or a stance class like BO/SM.
3. Its pretty easy to set up and draws people in to try other classes - removing it will just make the discrepancies larger between those who can self generate macros or have hardware to do so
4. You are impacting your core player base.

There are always unintended consequences to every action, buff, removal or nerf. I would say when in doubt use a scalpel not a chain saw, or do nothing at all.

I whole-heartedly agree. Honestly a very eloquent and well thought-out post by warg.

The misinformation is kinda crazy tbh, I might have had the "wrong version" of nerfed buttons (I could have sworn it was up to date to the latest version) and a lot of the conditional checks weren't functioning. With this information I never thought it was an overpowered addon/tool. I wish I could go back in time with some magical "foresight" goggles and make a few videos explaining/showing this for solidarity in the knowledge of the addon.

For instance the whole "Check to make sure target doesn't have immovable" function didn't function for me among other conditionals. I always thought it was part of the server direction/functionality for the addon and I liked it because it didn't do what all these people on forums - who have never used it - claim to do.

I could recreate the "issue" (I thought it was a fix for nerfedbuttons being too OP) in a video for sure. Maybe my version was special or something but a lot of these "computer does the think for you" thing was non functional on my version. Checks for immovable, snares, behind target, cripples, unstoppable - never worked for me, I thought that was intended. For clarity I had version 3.3.1 of Nerfed buttons.

Also the whole "omg people can mash knockdowns/silences/disarms or punts and wait for nerfed buttons to fire!" thing being non-working and disinformation from MY perspective (again I might have had the wrong version). It was almost always better/smarter to just use the power of two human eyes and buffhead filters to decide that on your own. Still is.

Kinda saddens me to see one sect of the community vilify people for using the addon when they themselves aren't even 100% sure of what they are talking about regarding "nerfedbuttons". This server is small, 1200 people isn't a ton of people and we as a community should be looking for reasons to come together rather than dividing ourselves. The community can blame the administration all they want for all these problems they perceive with the server but the community itself is just as accountable with how they act towards new/existing players.

We need each other for WAR. Otherwise you might as well go play another MMO against NPCs.

[Parallell86]

Is it allowed to use aimbot in counter strike just because youre **** 11 years old?
Is it allowed because its your **** girlfriend?

If its not for you, dont play it.

[steelblade93]

Is it allowed to use aimbot in counter strike just because youre **** 11 years old?
Is it allowed because its your **** girlfriend?

If its not for you, dont play it.

You know perfectly well it doesnt equate to the same thing.
It isn't an "aimbot" and this isnt "counter strike"
If you wanted a better comparsion of what NB would be like in somehting like counter-strike, it could helpfully reload your gun after every shot wether you wanted to or not. That's kinda what it's like on this.
The fact that you can't articulate a line without swearing really does show something, perhaps that we should have more sensible discussions.
and yes, I think having family built communities where everyone is enjoying themslves is much better than people screaming about aimbots and swearing.
If the honest answer is "well don't play then" that's the answer. People won't and you won't have anybody left to fight against.

[Melekith]

Good patch. I support the decision not to support Nerfed Buttons anymore.

This game has already way to many add ons. A standard UI with a limited amount of add ons should be the goal from my perspective. I like the idea when we all would use a revamped UI version with some addons, enough to play the game on a comfortable level.

What addons do: They change the nature of the game on some level. For example, technically Buffhead can be used like a wallhack. You can track guard on target and it will display it even when you don't have a line of sight.

[Skullgrin]

Glad NB is gone. Lol at ppl saying that they needed it to play IB. Its really not that hard.

Yea, I really don't get the whole "I need it to play my Ironbreaker " thing. I've never used Nerfedbuttons and I get along just fine on my Dwarf. Actually now that I think about it, my rotations on the Ironbreaker are simpler than the ones I use on the Chosen. Maybe I should be arguing to bring Nerfedbuttons back so I can make things easier on the Chosen?!?

Nah...

[sighy]

Is it allowed to use aimbot in counter strike just because youre **** 11 years old?
Is it allowed because its your **** girlfriend?

If its not for you, dont play it.

You know perfectly well it doesnt equate to the same thing.
It isn't an "aimbot" and this isnt "counter strike"
If you wanted a better comparsion of what NB would be like in somehting like counter-strike, it could helpfully reload your gun after every shot wether you wanted to or not. That's kinda what it's like on this.
The fact that you can't articulate a line without swearing really does show something, perhaps that we should have more sensible discussions.
and yes, I think having family built communities where everyone is enjoying themslves is much better than people screaming about aimbots and swearing.
If the honest answer is "well don't play then" that's the answer. People won't and you won't have anybody left to fight against.

I do not quite agree. I should probably mention that i believe that sane people would use NB for their dmg rotations not hard cc/big cooldowns(Granted some people do it and look dumb) and that while i don't like the idea of sequencers, in that they function to minimise human error, under pressure. There is nothing inherently wrong with them.

Problem arises, in the cases of conditionals, which directly influence what spells it feeds into your rotations based on preset conditions, where it should be down to your own judgement and execution. That's where the player's micro-mechanical skill shines through, in the mmo-rpg genere, for the most part. Like aiming is in FPS games. And it invariably allows you to focus your attention onto other things like positioning, while knowing that the good ol' reliable sequence has your back, in terms of general rotation to the extent that it can adjust the rotation for you. If you feel like Blackguards have too many buttons Chosen are prefectly servicable. Dark Rites DoKs can still be perfectly passable on the button budget of Essence Lash, Patch Wounds and Khaine's Embrace.


For the sake of discussion, what degree of automation do you think is acceptable?

[Evilest]

and that while i don't like the idea of sequencers, in that they function to minimise human error, under pressure. There is nothing inherently wrong with them.

Problem arises, in the cases of conditionals, which directly influence what spells it feeds into your rotations based on preset conditions, where it should be down to your own judgement and execution.

Same story. Conditional checking or sequences, they're there mostly to minimize the in combat cognitive load. And so woud an addon that changes all the different guard buff icons to the same one. Not saying it's good or bad, just that it is what it is.

[zarlemagne]

and that while i don't like the idea of sequencers, in that they function to minimise human error, under pressure. There is nothing inherently wrong with them.

Problem arises, in the cases of conditionals, which directly influence what spells it feeds into your rotations based on preset conditions, where it should be down to your own judgement and execution.

Same story. Conditional checking or sequences, they're there mostly to minimize the in combat cognitive load. And so woud an addon that changes all the different guard buff icons to the same one. Not saying it's good or bad, just that it is what it is.

I'm an old codger, I need as much help as possible to "minimize my cognitive load"