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Patch Notes 15/10/2021

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normanis
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Re: Patch Notes 15/10/2021

Post#41 » Mon Oct 18, 2021 12:47 pm

ashton007 wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:42 am
I think that making sure every class has a spot in the meta should be the highest priority. And I don’t mean in just solo ranked...
corectly speced. that why all clases has 3 SKILL TRESS. if all are st than why not leave 1?
As is has often been said this is RoR not live and as such it’s not a basis for change / buff / nerf (not my words)

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Scottx125
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Re: Patch Notes 15/10/2021

Post#42 » Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:39 am

ashton007 wrote:
Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:42 am
I think that making sure every class has a spot in the meta should be the highest priority. And I don’t mean in just solo ranked...
Balancing for solo ranked is a bad idea that would kill the game nearly as fast as a reset. Fact of the matter is the community doesn't have a lot of say in the direction of the project. I'd personally like to have a OSRS system where people get to vote on top priorities that should be worked on, or new features they would like to see implemented. And at the end of each development cycle put up a new vote with different things to choose from. But that's never going to happen. If it did, I guarantee one of the top things voted for, if not THE top most voted for thing would be a proper look at class balance again. I seem to remember back in 2018 there was some attempt at major class balance, and it just ended. Since then we've been drip-fed balance changes. In regards to one each class having a meta. I think the obvious choice is to start with every class performing it's main role with at least one spec. Obviously for some classes this would be harder. BW for example have ST, DoT and AOE, all focused on DPS just in different contexts. Where as one of the more difficult classes such as WP. Has normal ranged healing, melee healing and a DPS spec. I honestly hope the meta of AM and Shamans is ended, along with the horrifying dominance of Slayers so that other classes get a bit more of the limelight. Obviously nothing will ever truly be balanced, but IMO there should be a tolerance to aim for between classes such as +- 10% difference in ability of similar specs (DPS to DPS, heal to heal etc).

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Scottx125
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Re: Patch Notes 15/10/2021

Post#43 » Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:59 am

wargrimnir wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:40 pm
Scottx125 wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:37 pm
In reality what we need is a major class rebalance all around. Some specs are simply not viable or flat out worse than others.
That's fantasy, not reality. We're not doing major class rebalancing. You're just bored.
No not bored, just frustrated when GM's respond in a snarky way to a genuine comment to see the game improve. Wanting a balance improvement isn't exactly unheard of in an MMO, and sure it might not be on the table. But the game COULD do with one. I think everyone could agree whilst nothing is ever truly balanced, every spec should be viable in every instance of gameplay and within a certain range of balance tolerance that people find acceptable. I mean imagine if KOTBS was a tank that wasn't viable in ORvR but was top in SC's. There's be a lot of angry order tanks on both sides annoyed and rightly so imo. The spec/class should define playstyle, not the content you play.

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wargrimnir
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Re: Patch Notes 15/10/2021

Post#44 » Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:13 am

Scottx125 wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:59 am
wargrimnir wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:40 pm
Scottx125 wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:37 pm
In reality what we need is a major class rebalance all around. Some specs are simply not viable or flat out worse than others.
That's fantasy, not reality. We're not doing major class rebalancing. You're just bored.
No not bored, just frustrated when GM's respond in a snarky way to a genuine comment to see the game improve. Wanting a balance improvement isn't exactly unheard of in an MMO, and sure it might not be on the table. But the game COULD do with one. I think everyone could agree whilst nothing is ever truly balanced, every spec should be viable in every instance of gameplay and within a certain range of balance tolerance that people find acceptable. I mean imagine if KOTBS was a tank that wasn't viable in ORvR but was top in SC's. There's be a lot of angry order tanks on both sides annoyed and rightly so imo. The spec/class should define playstyle, not the content you play.
Post proposals instead of trash. There's a section for it. That's what we use. You're whining in patch notes week to week instead of actually putting up something that might result in a change you want to see. There isn't some mega balance patch coming for S3, and we're not going back to constant balance changes. If your build sucks at something, chances are that's just how it's gonna be for a long time. Rebuilding classes takes a whole lot more effort and doesn't generate a whole lot of goodwill from the community on the backend. If you're not getting enough conversations with Realm Champions that advise directly on balance, they probably don't think your opinions are all that valuable.

Every spec is never going to be viable in every instance of gameplay, that's the kind of weak childish demand that's never going to be met, and if you're being honest with yourself you already know it. Don't try gaslighting us about how balanced the game is because it doesn't suit some impossible standard that no one else is entitled enough to actually have. And hey, if you can figure out some perfect way to balance a class to get to that outcome, put it in Balance Proposals where it belongs. Bet you don't.
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Scottx125
Posts: 276

Re: Patch Notes 15/10/2021

Post#45 » Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:54 am

wargrimnir wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:13 am
Scottx125 wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:59 am
wargrimnir wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:40 pm


That's fantasy, not reality. We're not doing major class rebalancing. You're just bored.
No not bored, just frustrated when GM's respond in a snarky way to a genuine comment to see the game improve. Wanting a balance improvement isn't exactly unheard of in an MMO, and sure it might not be on the table. But the game COULD do with one. I think everyone could agree whilst nothing is ever truly balanced, every spec should be viable in every instance of gameplay and within a certain range of balance tolerance that people find acceptable. I mean imagine if KOTBS was a tank that wasn't viable in ORvR but was top in SC's. There's be a lot of angry order tanks on both sides annoyed and rightly so imo. The spec/class should define playstyle, not the content you play.
Post proposals instead of trash. There's a section for it. That's what we use. You're whining in patch notes week to week instead of actually putting up something that might result in a change you want to see. There isn't some mega balance patch coming for S3, and we're not going back to constant balance changes. If your build sucks at something, chances are that's just how it's gonna be for a long time. Rebuilding classes takes a whole lot more effort and doesn't generate a whole lot of goodwill from the community on the backend. If you're not getting enough conversations with Realm Champions that advise directly on balance, they probably don't think your opinions are all that valuable.

Every spec is never going to be viable in every instance of gameplay, that's the kind of weak childish demand that's never going to be met, and if you're being honest with yourself you already know it. Don't try gaslighting us about how balanced the game is because it doesn't suit some impossible standard that no one else is entitled enough to actually have. And hey, if you can figure out some perfect way to balance a class to get to that outcome, put it in Balance Proposals where it belongs. Bet you don't.
Well your first point is incorrect, this is the first post on a news blog in ages. Second, it's not weak or childish to want a balanced game, just decent. And all It takes is effort. And I'm not gaslighting anyone. I'm just pointing out the issues that plague the game while you implement seasoned ranked... :roll: . I'm not blaming the Devs, I understand how hard it is to develop myself. But if there's one thing I think everyone would want, it's more transparency and decent communication from the actual Devs about their ideas and plans, to engage with the community more so we can work with them to solve such problems. It's hard to help someone fix something when they hide most of what they do behind a curtain and then believe them when they say what we get is for our benefit after alienating part of the community. Anyway that's the last I'll say on the matter, take it as you will.

Sulorie
Posts: 5873

Re: Patch Notes 15/10/2021

Post#46 » Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:36 am

The best you can archive is having some spec of a class to be viable in certain content. Any spec to be viable will and can never happen. There are free master/rr respec, so building your class for the content you want to play is the way to go.
Dying is no option.

ashton007
Posts: 363

Re: Patch Notes 15/10/2021

Post#47 » Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:02 am

Scottx125 wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:59 am
wargrimnir wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:40 pm
Scottx125 wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:37 pm
In reality what we need is a major class rebalance all around. Some specs are simply not viable or flat out worse than others.
That's fantasy, not reality. We're not doing major class rebalancing. You're just bored.
No not bored, just frustrated when GM's respond in a snarky way to a genuine comment to see the game improve. Wanting a balance improvement isn't exactly unheard of in an MMO, and sure it might not be on the table. But the game COULD do with one. I think everyone could agree whilst nothing is ever truly balanced, every spec should be viable in every instance of gameplay and within a certain range of balance tolerance that people find acceptable. I mean imagine if KOTBS was a tank that wasn't viable in ORvR but was top in SC's. There's be a lot of angry order tanks on both sides annoyed and rightly so imo. The spec/class should define playstyle, not the content you play.
I didn’t take the comment for boredom, that half witted response of a “no” seemed rather bored. He’s right in my opinion there are some specs that aren’t good for much, now I don’t think it’s very many but his point wasn’t exactly wrong. I think there are simpler and less condescending ways to say that something is not happening. Sad display from a Head GM,I fully agree, and sadly, quite common.

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Scottx125
Posts: 276

Re: Patch Notes 15/10/2021

Post#48 » Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:50 pm

ashton007 wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:02 am
Scottx125 wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:59 am
wargrimnir wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:40 pm


That's fantasy, not reality. We're not doing major class rebalancing. You're just bored.
No not bored, just frustrated when GM's respond in a snarky way to a genuine comment to see the game improve. Wanting a balance improvement isn't exactly unheard of in an MMO, and sure it might not be on the table. But the game COULD do with one. I think everyone could agree whilst nothing is ever truly balanced, every spec should be viable in every instance of gameplay and within a certain range of balance tolerance that people find acceptable. I mean imagine if KOTBS was a tank that wasn't viable in ORvR but was top in SC's. There's be a lot of angry order tanks on both sides annoyed and rightly so imo. The spec/class should define playstyle, not the content you play.
I didn’t take the comment for boredom, that half witted response of a “no” seemed rather bored. He’s right in my opinion there are some specs that aren’t good for much, now I don’t think it’s very many but his point wasn’t exactly wrong. I think there are simpler and less condescending ways to say that something is not happening. Sad display from a Head GM,I fully agree, and sadly, quite common.
Agreed. People wonder why the community is toxic when it is perpetuated by the people who are meant to regulate and uphold the community to a higher standard. Doesn't matter if you think someone's comment is ignorant or dumb, doesn't excuse being rude, especially when you're in a position of authority above others. If you act in an antagonistic way towards people, don't be surprised when they act back in the same manner. *Insert surprised Pikachu face here*

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wargrimnir
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Re: Patch Notes 15/10/2021

Post#49 » Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:51 pm

Scottx125 wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:50 pm
ashton007 wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:02 am
Scottx125 wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 2:59 am

No not bored, just frustrated when GM's respond in a snarky way to a genuine comment to see the game improve. Wanting a balance improvement isn't exactly unheard of in an MMO, and sure it might not be on the table. But the game COULD do with one. I think everyone could agree whilst nothing is ever truly balanced, every spec should be viable in every instance of gameplay and within a certain range of balance tolerance that people find acceptable. I mean imagine if KOTBS was a tank that wasn't viable in ORvR but was top in SC's. There's be a lot of angry order tanks on both sides annoyed and rightly so imo. The spec/class should define playstyle, not the content you play.
I didn’t take the comment for boredom, that half witted response of a “no” seemed rather bored. He’s right in my opinion there are some specs that aren’t good for much, now I don’t think it’s very many but his point wasn’t exactly wrong. I think there are simpler and less condescending ways to say that something is not happening. Sad display from a Head GM,I fully agree, and sadly, quite common.
Agreed. People wonder why the community is toxic when it is perpetuated by the people who are meant to regulate and uphold the community to a higher standard. Doesn't matter if you think someone's comment is ignorant or dumb, doesn't excuse being rude, especially when you're in a position of authority above others. If you act in an antagonistic way towards people, don't be surprised when they act back in the same manner. *Insert surprised Pikachu face here*
Scottx125 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 6:37 pm
In reality what we need is a major class rebalance all around. Some specs are simply not viable or flat out worse than others.

This is not a particularly constructive comment. It's actually quite dismissive of the years of work on balance that have already been done. It's also painfully ignorant to the current process that we've detailed about how balance works currently, intentionally so I would guess. What's the motivation behind it? You've been around long enough. Surely if you're so concerned with balance you're aware we have Realm Champions and a Balance Proposal forum? Or is it just extreme entitlement to think this sort of comment is the sort of driving factor that pushes balance? If you're not going to be part of the solution and instead think comments that serve almost no constructive purpose are the feedback the team needs, you're doing a disservice to balance in general. I suspect, being a long time community member, you're well aware of how you're expected to contribute if you feel your input is so valuable, but that's not what happened here. So why the pushback?

If you think I'm just some random GM responding when it comes to balance topics, you're clearly not paying attention. Yes, I'm responsible for the GM team and oversee everything that goes on there. That's also while doing a significant amount of development work back behind the curtain with the DB and Dev team on various projects as needed. I've been deeply involved in managing the several different balance teams over the past 4 years in the various iterations they've taken. I've watched people working on class balance burn out and move on from the project. It's not a remotely welcoming job that requires a ton of time to get implementation correct, to get balance theory to a place that's actually fair both for class identity, inter-realm balance, and general game balance, while also hoping beyond hope that certain valued community members aren't openly pissing on the hundreds of hours of work that goes into it. It's not some strange coincidence that the stickied posts in the Balance Proposal subforum have my name on them. If you need to acclimate yourselves, feel free. Maybe that will enlighten you to how you can actually contribute to the project in a meaningful way.
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[email protected] for exploits and cheaters.
grimnir.me Some old WAR blog

ashton007
Posts: 363

Re: Patch Notes 15/10/2021

Post#50 » Wed Oct 20, 2021 9:41 pm

wargrimnir wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 3:51 pm
Scottx125 wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:50 pm
ashton007 wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:02 am

I didn’t take the comment for boredom, that half witted response of a “no” seemed rather bored. He’s right in my opinion there are some specs that aren’t good for much, now I don’t think it’s very many but his point wasn’t exactly wrong. I think there are simpler and less condescending ways to say that something is not happening. Sad display from a Head GM,I fully agree, and sadly, quite common.
Agreed. People wonder why the community is toxic when it is perpetuated by the people who are meant to regulate and uphold the community to a higher standard. Doesn't matter if you think someone's comment is ignorant or dumb, doesn't excuse being rude, especially when you're in a position of authority above others. If you act in an antagonistic way towards people, don't be surprised when they act back in the same manner. *Insert surprised Pikachu face here*
Scottx125 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 17, 2021 6:37 pm
In reality what we need is a major class rebalance all around. Some specs are simply not viable or flat out worse than others.

This is not a particularly constructive comment. It's actually quite dismissive of the years of work on balance that have already been done. It's also painfully ignorant to the current process that we've detailed about how balance works currently, intentionally so I would guess. What's the motivation behind it? You've been around long enough. Surely if you're so concerned with balance you're aware we have Realm Champions and a Balance Proposal forum? Or is it just extreme entitlement to think this sort of comment is the sort of driving factor that pushes balance? If you're not going to be part of the solution and instead think comments that serve almost no constructive purpose are the feedback the team needs, you're doing a disservice to balance in general. I suspect, being a long time community member, you're well aware of how you're expected to contribute if you feel your input is so valuable, but that's not what happened here. So why the pushback?

If you think I'm just some random GM responding when it comes to balance topics, you're clearly not paying attention. Yes, I'm responsible for the GM team and oversee everything that goes on there. That's also while doing a significant amount of development work back behind the curtain with the DB and Dev team on various projects as needed. I've been deeply involved in managing the several different balance teams over the past 4 years in the various iterations they've taken. I've watched people working on class balance burn out and move on from the project. It's not a remotely welcoming job that requires a ton of time to get implementation correct, to get balance theory to a place that's actually fair both for class identity, inter-realm balance, and general game balance, while also hoping beyond hope that certain valued community members aren't openly pissing on the hundreds of hours of work that goes into it. It's not some strange coincidence that the stickied posts in the Balance Proposal subforum have my name on them. If you need to acclimate yourselves, feel free. Maybe that will enlighten you to how you can actually contribute to the project in a meaningful way.
I directly addressed you as the head GM and not some random, and as such you should be held to the highest standard, but here it’s quite the opposite. I am actually fully aware of what you do for the team having been here since 2014 myself and seeing a lot of it, but I have to say that I have also seen the way you talked to others in the past and it’s quite tasteless, in fact I recall a few leaving the game and team as a direct result of your behavior. I am not impressed in the slightest and seems most unfortunate that you are the face of the team. Have you nothing better to do than pick apart comments that hold no weight? And yet you speak of boredom... I recall making a few balance proposals in the past that were not up to your standard due to formatting.

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