[SH] Spear based skill (Stabbity, Cut Ya! Don't Hit Me!)

[Gobtar]

Make spear based attacks: Stabbity, Cut Ya! Don't Hit Me! use the range statistic implemented in the same manner as the engineer ability: spanner swipe.


Reasoning:
-Spear-based attacks are not able to be used to any practical effect

-Multi-Attribute Dependacy: The Squig herder is able to mitigate this somewhat with the use of Squig Amour, this however leaves spear based melee skills completely irrelevant as SH gear is designed around Range combat modifiers in order to work in tangent with Squig Armour.

-Stance Dancing: The Melee SH playstyle requires stance dancing to played for full effect, this goes from pre-dotting, use of Kaboom and Run Away! etc. The SH is unable to use any effective melee attacks while waiting for SA to come off cool down, this change would lessen the opportunity cost of de-armouring. Consider that the Squig Armour has a 10 second cooldown,

-Counterplay: A melee Squig herder using these abilities do so at their own peril, they suffer counterplay due the fact they don't have access to their SA buffs and better abilities (toughness, regen, melee snare, KD, Harder hitting abilities Aoe abilities, AoE KB). This is just an example as to why a range based squig will not opt to run into melee just to apply a dot.

Let me know your thoughts.

[Penril]

Would you include Git Em! as well?

[magter3001]

Would you include Git Em! as well?

Git Em! works in Squig armor though... so I don't think it needs to be included. I personally think that those 3 abilities the OP listed should just be part of squig armor... no reason for it not to be.

[Foxbeep]

I hate to be one to support "buffing" SH since they kill me the most of any other class *wink*
But I think putting those three abilities into squig armor would be progress towards making the melee SH half playable.

I'm not for making them scale with ranged stats but making them part of the Squig Armor moveset would be a really good idea for the sake of encouraging different playstyles. I honestly never knew they WEREN'T in Squig Armor, it's been a while since I played SH, and I'm a little surprised to find they aren't.

[Gobtar]

I'm not for making them scale with ranged stats but making them part of the Squig Armor moveset would be a really good idea for the sake of encouraging different playstyles. I honestly never knew they WEREN'T in Squig Armor, it's been a while since I played SH, and I'm a little surprised to find they aren't.

What are your reasons for not letting the spear skill be range stats based? Stabbity would be redundant with Ard Noggin, where with my suggestions it would give a melee SH some wiggle room abilities while waiting for SA to come off cooldown.

[Gobtar]

Would you include Git Em! as well?

I don't think so, originally I suggested that overlap skills, such as Git Em! and Bad Gas would use BS or Strength depending on stance but I am not sure this is a) possible b) needed. My suggestion is to buff the purely spear based ability to go from complete obscurity to useful mediocrity.

I believe Az mentioned in another thread that range DPS shouldn't have to submit to M.A.D for going to a melee spec because they are still Range DPS. While Stances mitigate that somewhat, you still need to respec RR and some gear depending on if you are going to play Melee. I am just speculating that he might be working on a fix for this underlying issue.

[Foxbeep]

I'm not for making them scale with ranged stats but making them part of the Squig Armor moveset would be a really good idea for the sake of encouraging different playstyles. I honestly never knew they WEREN'T in Squig Armor, it's been a while since I played SH, and I'm a little surprised to find they aren't.

What are your reasons for not letting the spear skill be range stats based? Stabbity would be redundant with Ard Noggin, where with my suggestions it would give a melee SH some wiggle room abilities while waiting for SA to come off cooldown.

We're getting into the land of conjecture and opinion for a minute here, but if SH's melee abilities scaled off of ranged stats it would be more than just a quality of life adjustment.

Just like the other melee hybrid class (happens to be SW) going into melee range and doing melee damage needs to be a conscious decision. I'm experimenting a lot with the "melee" assault tree (You can read the thread over on the high elf subforum) and most of the gameplay is focused around using the right ranged abilities on the right targets and knowing exactly when to close the gap and hit 'em up with a melee finisher.

If SHs have access to stabbity scaling off of their ballistic skill it would water down the flavor of the my metaphorical archetypal stew. Yes, there would be more broth for everyone and it would be easier to get into but it detracts from the experience.

I would be fine with SA's cooldown being reduced to 5s like Assault stance but if that were the case there would absolutely HAVE to be a 10s cooldown on Kaboom, or SHs would have access to a nearly spammable AoE knockback (immunities notwithstanding).

SH and SW happen to be very very difficult classes to balance because of their flexible nature. I think these things need to be done but certain precautions need be made to avoid unforeseen balance complications down the road.

[Gobtar]

Unfortunately or Fortunately the SH and SW are extremely different when it comes to their melee playstyle, where SW are more burst finishers (as you mentioned), SHs are more AoE spamming pressure damagers.
The decision to go into melee is still a conscious one, that will be true regardless of whether or not the SH is in squig armour, unlike the SW he also needs to have access to Gas squig when the time to commit happens.
I would be against lowering the cooldown on SA in favour of these changes because it promotes the stance dancing for maximum output, which is already true for the SH, Cut Ya! will be a necessary addition to pre-dotting (+armour debuff) before "armouring up".

Stabbity will be a filler ability while waiting for SA to come off cooldown, to keep the melee pressure should the SH wish to stay "committed". I feel there is a design reason for why Ard Noggin does exactly the same damage tootip as Stabbity, having Stabbity be only effective in SA just makes it a useless redundant ability.

If the SH had burst finishers like the Shadow Warriors I would be incline to agree with you, but that is not the case, unfortunately while they are mirrors they are completely different when it comes to their melee specs.

[Foxbeep]

Unfortunately or Fortunately the SH and SW are extremely different when it comes to their melee playstyle, where SW are more burst finishers (as you mentioned), SHs are more AoE spamming pressure damagers.
The decision to go into melee is still a conscious one, that will be true regardless of whether or not the SH is in squig armour, unlike the SW he also needs to have access to Gas squig when the time to commit happens.
I would be against lowering the cooldown on SA in favour of these changes because it promotes the stance dancing for maximum output, which is already true for the SH, Cut Ya! will be a necessary addition to pre-dotting (+armour debuff) before "armouring up".

Stabbity will be a filler ability while waiting for SA to come off cooldown, to keep the melee pressure should the SH wish to stay "committed". I feel there is a design reason for why Ard Noggin does exactly the same damage tootip as Stabbity, having Stabbity be only effective in SA just makes it a useless redundant ability.

If the SH had burst finishers like the Shadow Warriors I would be incline to agree with you, but that is not the case, unfortunately while they are mirrors they are completely different when it comes to their melee specs.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you're saying you're against a cooldown reduction for SA?

Those are good points to make and maybe a compromise should be reached, with Cut Ya and and Dont Hit Me becoming usable in SA and only mirroring Stabbity to ballistic skill.

I really hadn't looked too much at the SH melee tree until the last few days when trying to refine assault and it did surprise me just how different they were. I don't have a SH at the proper level to really play with the path of stabbin' so I can't provide all that much anecdotal or playstyle information but I just might level one to give it a shot.

[Gobtar]

Correct me if I'm wrong but you're saying you're against a cooldown reduction for SA?

Lowering the CD would definitely promote more stance dancing, but I 100% agree with you that if this change were to be made Kaboom! needs a 10s CD. I just dont want a slap dash fix leaving useless abilities still useless.

Those are good points to make and maybe a compromise should be reached, with Cut Ya and and Dont Hit Me becoming usable in SA and only mirroring Stabbity to ballistic skill.

I really hadn't looked too much at the SH melee tree until the last few days when trying to refine assault and it did surprise me just how different they were. I don't have a SH at the proper level to really play with the path of stabbin' so I can't provide all that much anecdotal or playstyle information but I just might level one to give it a shot.

I think this compromise is acceptable.

Melee Squig herders are a ton of fun. They have alot of problems, the only thing they are good for right now is bombing undergeared pugs, Bad Gas is not enough on it's own to warrant bringing a melee SH, in tier 4 it's less of a problem because they have access to their heal debuff, so they can get that up pop M2 and do nice amount of AoE pressure, but this is at the expense of having a proper SH that would be able to bring alot more damage to the table.