[Chosen] Questions regarding RvR SnB Tank

[th3gatekeeper]

Spoiler:

Dirty tricks + leading shot, are you really trying to argue against two different classes synergizing their tactics to gain more crit chance vs 1 class reducing 75% flat damage, come on dude....

None of the other points you made about the other classes abilities are even slightly relevant in comparison to this.

Ofc one realm able to stack stuff and the other one isn't is completly irrelevant.

And it's not stacking up to 75% reduction.

You are talking about one class spreading a huge damage reduction like a plague, vs resist reductions or increasing critical chance or increased auto attack, which bares very little significane if these assests are getting negated by an overall damage reduction almost 100% of the time........

I never said it was stacking, i said it reduced 75% damage, which it does.

It reduces you TO 75% damage, meaning 25% reduction... Not a 75% reduction. Just to clarify. Frankly I played 2H Chosen for a LONg time and had no idea (my bad I guess) that Challenge was stacking with it...

I think the issue here is that is was somehow proccing off a backlash - allowing any Chosen to basically apply it on EVERYTHING - rather than what seems like it was intended to be used for - 2H Rending Blade (which if you remember on LIVE for a while Chosen were ballerinas who could spam Rending Blade without 5 sec CD).

I think its rather silly personally and retired my chosen when this happened. NOT because I only want to play OP classes (if you search through ALL my history I have actually been talking about Chosen/Knight aura nerf now for over a year while being the exclusive classes I main) but rather that this nerf to CS directly kills a NON-META spec (2H Chosen).

I actually didnt feel like 2H Chosen was "especially strong". I felt it was a niche role that IS popular because the class looks so damn awesome. If they looked like SMs (permanently stuck in tier 1 armor) then I doubt so many would play them...

If it were me, I would either just make it not stack (what everyone thought it was doing already) with Challenge, OR just merely nerf the thing that was allowing for the "REAL ISSUE" - the "backlash procs".

If this is going to forever be a single target, then I would ask for a rework of the tree... To something akin to the Knight. Where the 2H Chosen can provide things like a crit buff to all party members (Maybe Oppressing Strikes now makes Dreadful fear increase crit chance to nearby allies or something) and then ALSO rework Crippling Strikes - where maybe its changed to be "Critical Strikes now reduce movement speed" That type of thing.

"Why not copy Knights - chance to be crit debuff?" - Well because I doubt you want that stacking with BGs CD.. Dirty Tricks (SnB Knight) gets to be a 10% crit buff. Or maybe you just tweak it to mimic that - but off a parry. "Oppressing Blows: When you parry all members of your group within 100 feet get 10% crit" something like that.

Just some ideas. So the 2h Chosen (like the 2H Knight) now provides more crit to party, and an AoE snare. This brings back some "viability" to the tank in a way that SnB DOESNT have... So it re-creates a Niche job for 2H chosen to fill.

Just an idea. but this basically killed a non META spec anyways, so SNB isnt really hurt.

[roadkillrobin]

6min to build up to M4 is giving it up.
Morale rates are not implemented in such way were they would be ballanced. 2 hander SM and Chosen should reach m4 in 100 secs not 6 minutes.

And you do realize that CS in it's current form has about the same power level as Dragon's Talon right? An abillity SM get as core. While CS requires both Mastery points, a tactic slot and a crit.

[dansari]

Man, welcome to the **** show is all I can say. I go full scenarios without hitting imac on my SM. But hey, now that you're "forced" to play SnB you can take full advantage of the broken morale tactics so you can cycle 75% dmg reduction with your BO for 20s every minute!

SM isn't a chosen mirror, and mirror classes get a little something different; so, I'm not going to go into the whole Dragon's Talon argument besides this: I rarely even use Dragon's Talon -- Whisp Winds, Crashing Wave, and Blurring Shock are all more important most of the time for a Hoeth/Vaul SM (forget about it on a Khaine SM - they're going Ether Dance/Blurring Shock most of the time). Plus, the tooltip says 4s whereas CS says 10s, and Dragon's Talon is the only ability it procs off of whereas CS is off of any crit. DT is also a 20% reduction whereas CS is a 25% reduction. They're really, really different.

[Darosh]

How are you gonna proc AoE CS relibly without using a two hander? Blast Wave and Quake have really long CD. Its a non issue. And you basicly lose Immaculate Defence without Shield.

The no CS nerf on AoE is a blow to 2hander warband builds and almoast no impact at all on small scale sheild build as you gona proc it easily of AA anyway if you want to.

So why even 2 hander atm as you can do all the stuff and better with Shield with these changes.

You consider ID+CS+Challange an issue in small scale? but it was almoast unaffected with this change.

All the nerfing acompmished was making a non metagame build that that was a alternative build for warbands and forced Chosen even more into a fotm cookiccutter build. CS build opened up options and variaty for the class wich imo is pretty much gone now.

In regards to the first question: I am not going to spill the beans as to how it was dealt with on live as it would only give more opportunity to cry for things, and lastly because it applies to live - not RoR. I meant to counteract all the nonsense referring to live experience (that for the most part doesn't even scratch it) that is consistently floating around in these kinds of discussions.

In regards to your elaboration:
You answer your own questions; elaborate as to why the change should not create that much backlash in the first place, but do not acknowledge it.

Running Chosen snb and 2h at once in warbands to circumvent the RR lock you need on the snb to utilize CS, well again, go figure as to why thats not an argument, then add to it the quantities in which you can run the class in large scale as it comes to application and uptime.

As it comes to 2h:
Theres barely a reason to ditch snb across the board (considering the benefits it grants in this game, a game that entirely revolves around groups), you handle chosen as if it should be an exception whilst neglecting the means of composition to make it work if you really wanted to - you argue in favor of a swiss knife.

If you want to run 2h loldps you still can whilst still bringing your auras, guard and CC to the table - as far as the rest is concerned, well you gotta live with the drawbacks of it.

In regards to the meta argument:
There is no meta, the "meta" you have in place currently is defined by a handful (if even that) of premades.
If you had a proper meta based on a big enough set of data and competition... well, guess what, 2h tanks would not be fancied either way.

In other words:
Without an actually healthy competitive scene the meta argument is void.
If you need to tryhard-diehard min/max to farm pugs your issue lies in your coordination, rather than anyting remotely related to the game's mechanics.
Variety is a moot point if brought up in the very same sentence featuring a non-existant or otherwise ridiculous meta, and would still be a moot point if an actual meta existed - it defeats the purpose of meta arguments.

[Abbd.: Easy accesible, stacking nonsense of any callibre tends to grossly overperform in environments without coordinated opposition, and depending on the individual case still overperforms in competitive play due to uptime and effortless utilization - either way.]

In regards to everything not meant to meet a "meta"'s full requirements:
Play it and have fun with it - if you can only have fun joining in on the epeen circus you will not consider those things in the first place.
[Abbd.: Generally speaking:
You'll have fun in the process of getting it to work; regardless. If it doesn't work out, chances are its not suited for the format you play in and you will drop it. Your playstyle is meant to match your format, not the other way around - i.e: 2h is just fine in everything that is not super serious epeen circus; roaming, (...).
Chances are your exceptations in regards to spec xyz are out of whack and out of proportion, if you cannot make it work/find formats it works in/have fun with it.]
[Abbd.: To clarify:
CS is just as viable in every format as it was before the change, it just cannot be as ridiculously easy utilized as before; I disagree with it having "rightfully" fallen out of grace.]

If you want to ("re")enable variety and ways to play around with mechanics...well, how about you come up with alternative solutions?
People are hellbent on getting their toys back - toys that have not been taken away in the first place - and refuse to make any efforts whatsoever to help in the struggle of developing solutions or new approaches.

If the only thing that comes to your mind when dealing with change is:
I don't like it (because <insert ramble that does not acknowledge the implications and circumstances in their full extents>), change it back to exactly the way it has been before and ever since.

You offer exactly nothing for those on the receivng; developing end, to work with.

You could have since come up with creative ways of dealing with it, e.g.:
Stack mechanics (in general), additions of counterplay elements (challenge-esque hit counts), limitations of use (binding it to 2h only, to make your argument worthwile and counter abuse and extremes), ...

Nothing of any of those or similar suggestions is to be found anywhere - balance and development comes down to working with each other; compromises, afterall.


E: Words and stuff.

[th3gatekeeper]

How are you gonna proc AoE CS relibly without using a two hander? Blast Wave and Quake have really long CD. Its a non issue. And you basicly lose Immaculate Defence without Shield.

I don't have a dog in this fight, and I have no qualms with anything anybody is saying because I don't know how much the change impacted Chosen, but just reading this made me laugh. You don't lose imac without a shield, you just get there at the same time my SM does because you don't get a ridiculous morale tactic (which others have called overrated)... not every minute like you're used to.

Just to point something out. Its very easy to look at things in isolation and say "look! OP!" But in reality destru were given these tooks for a reason. Thats part of how they chose to balance the game. Now, we can start comparing all the ways in which a Knight is better than a Chosen for groups (because it is) but this wont get us anywhere... So trying to point at 1 piece in a complex WEB of balance... its kinda silly.

Unless they are going to completely mirror classes (which frankly I would be fine with) then if you are going to talk about any class, you also have to do it in relation to its mirror and talk about the full list of pros and cons against that mirror the class brings... So yes, 1 "pro" to chosen vs Knights is DFV - morale pump, but not only is this not the only "pro" there is a long list of "cons" in comparison to knights.

Anyways, my POINT in all this is, not all tanks want to play SnB. This really eviscerated the role of a 2H chosen. Someone else's post talked about application vs power and we should all be glad it stacks with Challenge... The reality of this is, it requires you to be in melee, with a 2H to proc reliably (with 15% crit) otherwise its not reliable. You cant proc this reliably on RDPS (which is the meta)... so I wouldnt argue in terms of "how easy is it to proc vs its power" I would talk in terms of "Uptime". When your in RVR or in SCs... what is your uptime on CS... Sure if all you did was hit on 1 target all day you might have 100% uptime. But when your expected to HTL, taunt/challenge,snare etc. etc. you wont be "proccing CS on DPS" as much as you think...

So yes, this took a niche spec (2h Chosen) that you could ARGUE had a place in RVR and SCs, and made it a crap spec compared to other versions of tanks.

I dont see justification for this nerf, without also nerfing a few of the other things mentioned - a key example would be SM double resist debuff stacking. An easy fix WOULD HAVE BEEN to merely not allow it to stack with Challenge - and this would have not been met with ANY FLAME WHATSOEVER because thats what most of us already thought..... Which would have fixed the "issue" without removing a spec (2H Chosen) from a "playable class"....

Also people keep saying "you still bring auras" - are we all just going to pretend they are NOT currently on the chopping block? I would be shocked if auras stayed as is... Also this again only focuses on 1 side - knights bring this too... so I guess I dont get that point... 2H Chosen over NOTHING? Sure! Ill take 1 more person and auras... 2H chosen over ANY OTHER TANK? Nope... they dont bring anything to the table.

[th3gatekeeper]

If you want to ("re")enable variety and ways to play around with mechanics...well, how about you come up with alternative solutions?
People are hellbent on getting their toys back - toys that have not been taken away in the first place - and refuse to make any efforts whatsoever to help in the struggle of developing solutions or new approaches.

I just did this above... I came up with several alternatives... To re-explain...

Oppressing Blows: "When you Parry, increases you and your party's crit chance by 10% for 10 seconds" (5% crit nerf to chosen).
Crippling Strikes: When you crit an enemy, reduces their run speed by 40% for 5 seconds.

BEFORE NERF:
- Chosen brought Crip Strikes (MELEE 25% damage reduction)

NOW:
- Chosen brings 10% more crit + AoE snare potential with Rending Blade.

This would make 2H chosen viable and even encourage SnB + 2H in the same party - making them less redundant - as they are CURRENTLY (after CS nerf).

[Darosh]

If you want to ("re")enable variety and ways to play around with mechanics...well, how about you come up with alternative solutions?
People are hellbent on getting their toys back - toys that have not been taken away in the first place - and refuse to make any efforts whatsoever to help in the struggle of developing solutions or new approaches.

I just did this above... I came up with several alternatives... To re-explain...

Oppressing Blows: "When you Parry, increases you and your party's crit chance by 10% for 10 seconds" (5% crit nerf to chosen).
Crippling Strikes: When you crit an enemy, reduces their run speed by 40% for 5 seconds.

BEFORE NERF:
- Chosen brought Crip Strikes (MELEE 25% damage reduction)

NOW:
- Chosen brings 10% more crit + AoE snare potential with Rending Blade.

This would make 2H chosen viable and even encourage SnB + 2H in the same party - making them less redundant - as they are CURRENTLY (after CS nerf).

Yes, you did it above, however I am neither a timetraveler nor am I seeing the thread whilst rambling in the edits.

To your uptime argument:
You aren't meant to effortlessly keep it up on just about everything in the zone - you have a high enough uptime the way it is, as in you can actively and effectively mitigate bursts. You aren't meant to effortlessly shutdown rdps burst either, and are not the only member of your group being able to do so. If you wanted to counter rdps and cared you'd have at the very least a shield in your bag to swap to for HtL dancing if you were to notice rdps dominance in scs. It comes down to a pug/swiss knife argument.

Abbd.: The above in regards to the 2h argument 98% of complaints are based on.
Abbd.: Note:
The meaning of uptime and its impact in combination with respective power doesn't have to be broken down completly, I hope.
Abbd.: Note:
It can only be ridiculous (and effortless) uptime (AoE procs) or stacking. Do some basic math accounting for CS uptime and effect, in combination with Challenge, ID and detaunts. If the results don't bear potential to utterly break the game your math will invetiably be broken.
Additionally, I am not arguing against changes to KotBS (among others; crit related) by any stretch of the imagination - however, keep in mind how shallow/brutefice-ish most order classes are designed and take into account the backlash changes will create.
It will be no diffrent to the CS change backlash whatsoever, probably worse since we have more fairweathers playing order atm., which is probably a reason nothing has changed yet - devs can only deal with soo much **** at a time, so don't jump to conclussions in regards to their motivation to change/not change stuff.
Last but not least: Pug heavy server = skewed feedback, emotional investment = (incredible) difficault to balance.

[roadkillrobin]

Spoiler:

How are you gonna proc AoE CS relibly without using a two hander? Blast Wave and Quake have really long CD. Its a non issue. And you basicly lose Immaculate Defence without Shield.

The no CS nerf on AoE is a blow to 2hander warband builds and almoast no impact at all on small scale sheild build as you gona proc it easily of AA anyway if you want to.

So why even 2 hander atm as you can do all the stuff and better with Shield with these changes.

You consider ID+CS+Challange an issue in small scale? but it was almoast unaffected with this change.

All the nerfing acompmished was making a non metagame build that that was a alternative build for warbands and forced Chosen even more into a fotm cookiccutter build. CS build opened up options and variaty for the class wich imo is pretty much gone now.

In regards to the first question: I am not going to spill the beans as to how it was dealt with on live as it would only give more opportunity to cry for things, and lastly because it applies to live - not RoR. I meant to counteract all the nonsense referring to live experience (that for the most part doesn't even scratch it) that is consistently floating around in these kinds of discussions.

In regards to your elaboration:
You answer your own questions; elaborate as to why the change should not create that much backlash in the first place, but do not acknowledge it.

Running Chosen snb and 2h at once in warbands to circumvent the RR lock you need on the snb to utilize CS, well again, go figure as to why thats not an argument, then add to it the quantities in which you can run the class in large scale as it comes to application and uptime.

As it comes to 2h:
Theres barely a reason to ditch snb across the board (considering the benefits it grants in this game, a game that entirely revolves around groups), you handle chosen as if it should be an exception whilst neglecting the means of composition to make it work if you really wanted to - you argue in favor of a swiss knife.

If you want to run 2h loldps you still can whilst still bringing your auras, guard and CC to the table - as far as the rest is concerned, well you gotta live with the drawbacks of it.

In regards to the meta argument:
There is no meta, the "meta" you have in place currently is defined by a handful (if even that) of premades.
If you had a proper meta based on a big enough set of data and competition... well, guess what, 2h tanks would not be fancied either way.

In other words:
Without an actually healthy competitive scene the meta argument is void.
If you need to tryhard-diehard min/max to farm pugs your issue lies in your coordination, rather than anyting remotely related to the game's mechanics.
Variety is a moot point if brought up in the very same sentence featuring a non-existant or otherwise ridiculous meta, and would still be a moot point if an actual meta existed - it defeats the purpose of meta arguments.

[Abbd.: Easy accesible, stacking nonsense of any callibre tends to grossly overperform in environments without coordinated opposition, and depending on the individual case still overperforms in competitive play due to uptime and effortless utilization - either way.]

In regards to everything not meant to meet a "meta"'s full requirements:
Play it and have fun with it - if you can only have fun joining in on the epeen circus you will not consider those things in the first place.
[Abbd.: Generally speaking:
You'll have fun in the process of getting it to work; regardless. If it doesn't work out, chances are its not suited for the format you play in and you will drop it. Your playstyle is meant to match your format, not the other way around - i.e: 2h is just fine in everything that is not super serious epeen circus; roaming, (...).
Chances are your exceptations in regards to spec xyz are out of whack and out of proportion, if you cannot make it work/find formats it works in/have fun with it.]
[Abbd.: To clarify:
CS is just as viable in every format as it was before the change, it just cannot be as ridiculously easy utilized as before; I disagree with it having "rightfully" fallen out of grace.]

If you want to ("re")enable variety and ways to play around with mechanics...well, how about you come up with alternative solutions?
People are hellbent on getting their toys back - toys that have not been taken away in the first place - and refuse to make any efforts whatsoever to help in the struggle of developing solutions or new approaches.

If the only thing that comes to your mind when dealing with change is:
I don't like it (because <insert ramble that does not acknowledge the implications and circumstances in their full extents>), change it back to exactly the way it has been before and ever since.

You offer exactly nothing for those on the receivng; developing end, to work with.

You could have since come up with creative ways of dealing with it, e.g.:
Stack mechanics (in general), additions of counterplay elements (challenge-esque hit counts), limitations of use (binding it to 2h only, to make your argument worthwile and counter abuse and extremes), ...

Nothing of any of those or similar suggestions is to be found anywhere - balance and development comes down to working with each other; compromises, afterall.


E: Words and stuff.

I've actually sugesteed to swap CS with BG about 3 or 4 times and giving Chosen a slightly more Powerfull version of Crush Vitallity of 40% AA recuction on crit in it's place. I'm not against changing CS. I do see the issues of having CS on Chosen and i think thats were the shoe is a bit to tight and not that CS is OP in it's core But nerfing a class build it to such a point that it goes from semi viable to completly trash is just silly. Nerfing something flat out without compensating in another way should never happen tbh.

[Darosh]

Spoiler:

How are you gonna proc AoE CS relibly without using a two hander? Blast Wave and Quake have really long CD. Its a non issue. And you basicly lose Immaculate Defence without Shield.

The no CS nerf on AoE is a blow to 2hander warband builds and almoast no impact at all on small scale sheild build as you gona proc it easily of AA anyway if you want to.

So why even 2 hander atm as you can do all the stuff and better with Shield with these changes.

You consider ID+CS+Challange an issue in small scale? but it was almoast unaffected with this change.

All the nerfing acompmished was making a non metagame build that that was a alternative build for warbands and forced Chosen even more into a fotm cookiccutter build. CS build opened up options and variaty for the class wich imo is pretty much gone now.

In regards to the first question: I am not going to spill the beans as to how it was dealt with on live as it would only give more opportunity to cry for things, and lastly because it applies to live - not RoR. I meant to counteract all the nonsense referring to live experience (that for the most part doesn't even scratch it) that is consistently floating around in these kinds of discussions.

In regards to your elaboration:
You answer your own questions; elaborate as to why the change should not create that much backlash in the first place, but do not acknowledge it.

Running Chosen snb and 2h at once in warbands to circumvent the RR lock you need on the snb to utilize CS, well again, go figure as to why thats not an argument, then add to it the quantities in which you can run the class in large scale as it comes to application and uptime.

As it comes to 2h:
Theres barely a reason to ditch snb across the board (considering the benefits it grants in this game, a game that entirely revolves around groups), you handle chosen as if it should be an exception whilst neglecting the means of composition to make it work if you really wanted to - you argue in favor of a swiss knife.

If you want to run 2h loldps you still can whilst still bringing your auras, guard and CC to the table - as far as the rest is concerned, well you gotta live with the drawbacks of it.

In regards to the meta argument:
There is no meta, the "meta" you have in place currently is defined by a handful (if even that) of premades.
If you had a proper meta based on a big enough set of data and competition... well, guess what, 2h tanks would not be fancied either way.

In other words:
Without an actually healthy competitive scene the meta argument is void.
If you need to tryhard-diehard min/max to farm pugs your issue lies in your coordination, rather than anyting remotely related to the game's mechanics.
Variety is a moot point if brought up in the very same sentence featuring a non-existant or otherwise ridiculous meta, and would still be a moot point if an actual meta existed - it defeats the purpose of meta arguments.

[Abbd.: Easy accesible, stacking nonsense of any callibre tends to grossly overperform in environments without coordinated opposition, and depending on the individual case still overperforms in competitive play due to uptime and effortless utilization - either way.]

In regards to everything not meant to meet a "meta"'s full requirements:
Play it and have fun with it - if you can only have fun joining in on the epeen circus you will not consider those things in the first place.
[Abbd.: Generally speaking:
You'll have fun in the process of getting it to work; regardless. If it doesn't work out, chances are its not suited for the format you play in and you will drop it. Your playstyle is meant to match your format, not the other way around - i.e: 2h is just fine in everything that is not super serious epeen circus; roaming, (...).
Chances are your exceptations in regards to spec xyz are out of whack and out of proportion, if you cannot make it work/find formats it works in/have fun with it.]
[Abbd.: To clarify:
CS is just as viable in every format as it was before the change, it just cannot be as ridiculously easy utilized as before; I disagree with it having "rightfully" fallen out of grace.]

If you want to ("re")enable variety and ways to play around with mechanics...well, how about you come up with alternative solutions?
People are hellbent on getting their toys back - toys that have not been taken away in the first place - and refuse to make any efforts whatsoever to help in the struggle of developing solutions or new approaches.

If the only thing that comes to your mind when dealing with change is:
I don't like it (because <insert ramble that does not acknowledge the implications and circumstances in their full extents>), change it back to exactly the way it has been before and ever since.

You offer exactly nothing for those on the receivng; developing end, to work with.

You could have since come up with creative ways of dealing with it, e.g.:
Stack mechanics (in general), additions of counterplay elements (challenge-esque hit counts), limitations of use (binding it to 2h only, to make your argument worthwile and counter abuse and extremes), ...

Nothing of any of those or similar suggestions is to be found anywhere - balance and development comes down to working with each other; compromises, afterall.


E: Words and stuff.

I've actually sugesteed to swap CS with BG about 3 or 4 times and giving Chosen a slightly more Powerfull version of Crush Vitallity of 40% AA recuction on crit in it's place. I'm not against changing CS. I do see the issues of having CS on Chosen and i think thats were the shoe is a bit to tight and not that CS is OP in it's core But nerfing a class build it to such a point that it goes from semi viable to completly trash is just silly. Nerfing something flat out without compensating in another way should never happen tbh.

If there were more good destro premades around you'd have had the forum filled with complaints about CS in its old iteration.
This server revolving around pug play doesn't help balancing efforts...
And I get where you are coming from and didn't mean to generalize too by much pointing out the lack of suggestions - my apologies.

Something as little as adding the 2h limitation to the change would properly have negated ALL the backlash in regards to 2h.
Turning it into some avoidance or initative (to counteract the crit on order a little) groupbuff might help in regards to its "viability" in groups.

But thats about as far I'd go personally. I cannot help it, even taking legitimate concerns into account I do consider CS perfectly viable as it ups to the skillfloor by alot - seperating chaff from wheat by binding burst counterplay to awareness and positioning.

E: Words and stuff.

[dansari]

Yes, you can't look at something and say "OP!" without the context of all the other balance, but your argument is specifically flawed in that you say "mythic gave them these to balance the game," ignoring the fact that all morale gain is lower (except these tactics.. correct me if I'm wrong). Which means they are hyper-performing outside of whatever mythic intended them to do. And, speaking as if anything from live actually mattered is moot. The balance is around what actually occurs now, not what occurred then. RoR is RoR. Live is dead. And what is occurring now, specifically with chosen, in the context of my response to one person, is "boo hoo woe is me my chosen can't reduce multiple target's dmg by 25% for 10s anymore so now I guess I'm forced to gain an even higher damage reduction on my party for 10s every minute! Waaaahhhhhh."