[Chosen] Auras

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GodlessCrom
Posts: 816

Re: [Chosen] Auras

Post#11 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:23 pm

footpatrol2 wrote:The mechanic is actually very complex. The issue comes with only running 1 knight/chosen in a group. If you have 2 knights or chosen's in a group it allows you to start switching aura's to your situational aura's which makes the mechanic a lot more complex.

In addition to this if your using two different spec knight's/chosen's your maximizing the benefits of your aura's/abilities better with 15 point builds then going for a solo hybrid build built to play with a different race's benefits.

If you would like to know more about this stuff I wrote a detailed article specifically focusing on Aura tanks located on this thread here:
Two Chosen's
https://www.returnofreckoning.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=21708

it is literally the opposite of complex. No matter what, youre just activating uncleansable, undefendable, 100% uptime buffs/debuffs. There is no counterplay, no tricks or anything: just "turn thesr three on" and go.
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peterthepan3
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Re: [Chosen] Auras

Post#12 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:30 pm

Swordmaster/BO Mechanic: Stance dancing, certain abilities require a certain stance, you must know how and when to weave between the stances for optimal damage rotations, etc.

BG/IB Mechanic: Dependent on being hit/hitting the enemy for maximum efficiency @ 100 grudge/hate. Essentially, you need to be actively using your oathfriend/dark protector to build up your mechanic, and/or hitting the enemy before you gain access to certain abilities.

Chosen/KOTBS Mechanic: apply 3 strong buffs/debuffs and good to go!

It's a no brainer, really.
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Toldavf
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Re: [Chosen] Auras

Post#13 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:31 pm

To be honest these abilities have been so interwoven with how the game meta developed and subsequently how other classes where balanced, that once they are changed we will probably see all other classes adjusted.

As abilities hey are just that strong.
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th3gatekeeper
Posts: 939

Re: [Chosen] Auras

Post#14 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:39 pm

wargrimnir wrote:They will likely become active abilities with different uses based on your target and buff/debuff uses.


With all due respect, this would really kill my desire to play the class. When I think "Mechanic" I dont think "active ability GCDs" that was one of the problems with Twisting. I frankly think you guys are leaning too far to the side of "creative" and forgetting the FUN factor. To put it simply, I think you are over thinking it and its going to make this less fun in the end... Its like what Biotek said below:

biotek wrote:I'm not a fan of the system on the drawing board at the moment. It doesn't match up with the class concept and it completely changes positional requirements, etc. of the chosen or kotbs and their groups.


biotek wrote:The first major problem, in my opinion, is stacking auras. Only the strongest of any specific aura should have any effect and the icons for the weaker versions shouldn't show as buffs/debuffs.

This is already the case. Only the strongest of the auras applies. I think what you are referring to is just a visual buff, but auras do NOT stack. The reason people talk about "stacking auras" isnt the same aura but you grab 2 Chosen or 2 Knights and you can run 6 full time active auras that buff AND debuff the targets without any management, downtime, etc. Which is just flat out better than anything the other tanks bring to the table.

I may differ in the "direction" of this game the DEVs want to take, but my personal opinion is this game is already very "spammy" with significant GCD management. I have been working on a BG proposal, but if this is the direction you want to take classes - more GCDs - then my proposal will not be seen as attractive.

When I count all the "active abilities" (not including guard, flee, throw, OR Mastery abilities) I get 18 active abilities you are cycling through.... So add maybe 3 mastery abilities, some guard swapping, etc. And make auras "castable" like you want... you are building like a 30 second "full ability" rotation. Which I know the response - you are supposed to choose not have it all. I propose you already have this though. Things like guard swapping, taunt, challenge, snare, repel, suppression(chosen), Sever Blessing etc. are all VERY active skills. I could build probably an entire rotation just on ~8 abilities (guesstimate) that doesnt leave much room for some of the other ones....

IDK, maybe its just who I am, but I see and like some of the "trend" in the gaming industry ATM where they are focusing on less sheer # of abilities but more "timing" required behind them.... So its easy to pick up and play, but difficult to truly master.

This was my inspiration behind the idea I proposed - Tying auras into the abilities in their own tree.

So Dreadful Agony + Dreaful Fear only procced if you hit a target with: Cleave, or Suppression, or Tooth, or Withering Blow, Rending, or relentless.

So now you DO have to build in atleast 1 or 2 of these abilities into a rotation and manage the uptime... But it doesnt require MORE GCDs, merely just the TIMING of those GCDs.

Same with Path of Corruption, in order to proc Wrath or Retribution you need to use Repel, Enraged, Dizzying, Bane Shield, Downfall, or Oppression. I would envision moves LIKE Bane Shield would merely be an "On Use" proc of the aura.

Heck, even dropping these auras down to 50 feet for the buff side of things, or even 30 feet would still be more FUN - require less GCD consumption, but still VERY active management.

thats just my take on it all, and I hope you guys are not set in stone on this direction because it really seems not appealing to me at all..
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GodlessCrom
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Re: [Chosen] Auras

Post#15 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:58 pm

Spammy would be mashing the same button over and over again: like playing a sorc/bw with NB. ;) Having significant GCD management is fine IMO. Means you have to be more judicious with your buffs and actions and sometimes, shock awe, you have to choose between buffing, doing damage, or CCing. Y'know like all other tanks do. I think even BG and IB honestly arent that bad in regards of GCD management: you just need to actually be doing something at all times and apparently that rubs some people the wrong way.
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biotek
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Re: [Chosen] Auras

Post#16 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:08 pm

th3gatekeeper wrote:This is already the case. Only the strongest of the auras applies. I think what you are referring to is just a visual buff, but auras do NOT stack.


I wasn't actually sure if it was the case or not but I'd hoped so. The buff/debuff icons need to get cleaned up then...
Don't see any issue with multiple chosen/kotbs using different auras as the radius is sufficiently small as to enforce positional requirements. Obviously there's an advantage in tight spaces but same goes for all aoes. (appears actual radius has been increased, should be reduced to match tooltip if so)

It seems like chosen and kotbs have too many other abilities if they're meant to actively twist or maintain their auras.
Perhaps a hybrid of the two systems: permanent auras with weaker effects, using skills in that auras mastery tree increases the effectiveness of the aura for a short period, perhaps with an internal cooldown on the enchanced buff.

If twisting is to be encouraged (I hope not) then maybe the auras should have an increased or additional bonus on activation that drops after shortly after.

freshour
Posts: 832

Re: [Chosen] Auras

Post#17 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:40 pm

Personally I wouldn't mind for them to not be MUST HAVE - tanks in every single party. But I have read through all of the defenders posts and also all of the people who think this should go through. I will use Peter's because he knows I won't mean any ill-intent and he generally has a pretty good way of summarizing things. So if you look at his first quote.

Swordmaster/BO Mechanic: Stance dancing, certain abilities require a certain stance, you must know how and when to weave between the stances for optimal damage rotations, etc.


What I take from this and having played against and with SM's is that they are arguably the best DPS'ing tank in the entire game. They have an absolutely insane debuff and can damn near be impossible to kill for the majority of players (not saying we balance around that), so in order to have the highest DPS of tanks (on the reg) AND to take full advantage of your defensive capabilities which i'll admit are less than the KOTBS/Chosen - you must stance dance like a freaking pro to do it all.

BG/IB Mechanic: Dependent on being hit/hitting the enemy for maximum efficiency @ 100 grudge/hate. Essentially, you need to be actively using your oathfriend/dark protector to build up your mechanic, and/or hitting the enemy before you gain access to certain abilities.


What I take from this having played against and with both of these classes is that their goal is not "party" oriented as much as it is making one SOB next to them as tough as they possibly can so they can run into a fight and stay up, and bring some pain. I realize they have some group utility but the majority of their purpose that I can see or where I feel they really shine at is from my own personal experience in that a well played BG can keep my melee DoK alive far better than any other tank can. Sure I haven't done the WP/IB combo in AGES but the fact being their purpose seems more oriented around making their dark protect/oath mate better. Sure it seems pretty clunky and I know there are numerous threads about it, but still. That seems to be their role.

Chosen/KOTBS Mechanic: apply 3 strong buffs/debuffs and good to go!


I'm not sure if Mythic just got the idea for this class and then spat out auras and moved on and thought people would like twisting. But their ENTIRE role is group buffing or debuffing. Like literally I feel like that is their entire purpose. I think if you take anything away from that, then they will no longer be the go-to tank (who wouldn't want a tank that's entire purpose is group utility lol) and honestly may fall back to least likely tank to be played or to want to play with. I'm 100% not saying that it isn't easy to just cast 3 auras and you're good. But if you make these auras 1/3 as effective which it seems like the rough draft might do, their entire element/role seems to be thrown off.


All i am saying is that it seems a lot of the people saying NERF NERF NERF FIX FIX FIX - have no real suggestion for how it should be fixed. And all of the people opposed to this idea have played these classes and realize how much of a colossal sh** storm it may be to play them the way they are now - after the changes. So if there is a new "role" in mind for these classes I think it'd be a good idea to state that and not just say these auras are going to be:
1 - less radius
2 - less uptime
3 - not all 3 able to be up at once

Because when you see it that way it looks like.... Well.... Good bye all Chosen/KOTBS - Instead of - This is totally different but will be equally awesome and FUN to play. But that is just my opinion on the responses I have read so far.

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wargrimnir
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Re: [Chosen] Auras

Post#18 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:50 pm

I wasn't making a suggestion and we (staff) are not trying to brainstorm the direction we want to go in for this change. There's really not much point in brainstorming since we already have a solid direction, and the class is so popular it doesn't matter what change we make, someone is going to hate it.

The guy asked about the future of Chosen/Kobs buffs to see if it's something he would still want to play. My post on the previous page is the best answer you'll get until it actually happens.
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freshour
Posts: 832

Re: [Chosen] Auras

Post#19 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:54 pm

wargrimnir wrote:I wasn't making a suggestion and we (staff) are not trying to brainstorm the direction we want to go in for this change. There's really not much point in brainstorming since we already have a solid direction, and the class is so popular it doesn't matter what change we make, someone is going to hate it.

The guy asked about the future of Chosen/Kobs buffs to see if it's something he would still want to play. My post on the previous page is the best answer you'll get until it actually happens.


Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh okay sorry about that. I misunderstood. I should have had another cup of coffee first! I have faith in you guys 100% and I know you have some awesome people behind the scenes making this all happen. My only purpose for that post was to maybe redirect the conversation to that of a productive nature but in doing so sort of lost what the entire purpose of the conversation was in the first place. So I apologize!!!! Sorrrrry

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th3gatekeeper
Posts: 939

Re: [Chosen] Auras

Post#20 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:55 pm

GodlessCrom wrote:Spammy would be mashing the same button over and over again: like playing a sorc/bw with NB. ;) Having significant GCD management is fine IMO. Means you have to be more judicious with your buffs and actions and sometimes, shock awe, you have to choose between buffing, doing damage, or CCing. Y'know like all other tanks do. I think even BG and IB honestly arent that bad in regards of GCD management: you just need to actually be doing something at all times and apparently that rubs some people the wrong way.


My response is that you already have to do this... Thats the point.

From my experience, from "least" to "most" GCD management is:

#1 SM/BO
#2 Chosen/Knight
#3 BG/IB

This is supported as well when you tally up just their "core" mechanic abilities they can use (not including Mastery or Base tank abilities).
SM (11):
“Core” Normal Stance:
- Gryphons Lash (Undefend. dmg)
- Graceful Strike (dmg + hate)
- Ensorcelled Blow (spirit damage)

“Core” Improved Stance:
- QI (slow)
- Eagle’s Flight (Parry buff)
- Int. Blow (morale suck)
- Wrath of H. (AoE Debuff)

“Core” Perfect Stance:
- Blurring Shock (dmg + dmg)
- Dragon’s Talon (dmg + dmg debuff)
- Dazzling Strike (dmg + inc buildtimes)
- Gust Wind (Knock Back)

Knight (11 – as Arch + Shield Rush mutually exclusive):
“Core” Conquest:
- Arching Swing (2h only)
- Crip Blow (slow)
- Prec Strike (dmg)
- Shining Blade (damage + damage)

“Core” Vigilance:
- Perseverance (armor + AP gain)
- Repel Dark (KB)
- Shield Rush (SNB only)
- Sunder (hate)

“Core” Glory:
- Blzing Blade (damage)
- Shatter (buff remove)
- Shield of Sun (reflect dmg)
- Vicious Slash (interrupt + dmg)

However when you go through and count the "ignorable" abilities.... SM has more that are OFTEN not used....

Vs IB(15):
“Core” Grudge Builders:
- Shield of Reprisal (KD)
- Guarded Attack (armor buff + damage)
- Grudging Blow (ST Threat builder)
- Punishing Blow (dmg)

“Core” Grudge Scalers:
- Binding Grudge (snare)
- Heavy Blow (DOT)
- Kneecapper (crit debuff)
- Rune Etched Axe (AoE Damage)
- Stone Breaker (armor debuff)
- Inspiring Attack (dmg+strbuff+willbuff)

“Core” Grudge Spenders:
- Away with Ye (knock back)
- Shield Sweep (AoE dmg + grudge builder)
- Stubborn as Stone (Resist Buff)
- Watch An Learn (WS buff + OF AP buff)
- Vengeful Strike (Tough Buff)

You want to talk Party Utility: Both SM+Knight have NO GCD REQUIRED mechanic. IB/BG have to use GCDs in order to buff or debuff anything which combined with their hate BUILDING -> Scaling abilities AND the fact their buffs/debuffs are largely ST and not AOE or Group... Its not wonder why they are less appealing.
Sulfuras - Knight
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Syzzle - Bright Wizard
Curz - Marauder
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