[Chosen] Auras

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biotek
Posts: 56

Re: [Chosen] Auras

Post#21 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:04 pm

Twisting is an old, established mechanic from other games including DAoC. So yes, they probably thought it would be fine and there would be players that liked the mechanic.

The retail concept was to give them strong group buffs but make them require effort to maintain 100% up time. Turns out a lot of people don't like twisting, and the classes have a lot of other things to keep track of at the same time.

Of course, this has all been discussed before.

https://returnofreckoning.com/forum/vie ... us#p107258

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GodlessCrom
Posts: 818

Re: [Chosen] Auras

Post#22 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:06 pm

Shatter is a base tank ability. No one uses blazing blade. Same with Sunder. Sm has an actual mechanic you have to juggle, and if you misclick or otherwise screw up, you can **** yourself over. A knight puts on his auras and then does base tank stuff: snare, CC, guard swap, assist. An SM, or an IB for that matter, have extra **** to juggle and worry about and actual conditionals on their abilities that make timing stuff important, in addition to doing the base tank stuff. A knight or a chosen just has to worry about the tank stuff, no mechanics or conditionals at all. Its definitively more difficult, dont try and sell it otherwise.

EDIT: knights literally dont have to choose between buffing and doing anything else. They do it automatically, for no cost. At least an SM can only have either stat steal or resists debuff up at once. And they still have to hit people for it to proc. Still easymode but then again, blade enchants arent even their primary mechanic so meh.
Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king!

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th3gatekeeper
Posts: 939

Re: [Chosen] Auras

Post#23 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:12 pm

This is something I would strongly encourage DEVs to listen to (its just a few minutes)

https://youtu.be/QHHg99hwQGY?t=793

"Lesson #5: Don't confuse "interesting" with "fun""

"....Often when we are playing around with new ideas in R&D, we ask ourselves, "Is this interesting or is this fun?" Is this a card that's neat to read and think about or is this a card that's enjoyable to play? Because the latter is going to get you closer to creating the emotional response you're trying to build with your game."


So I would propose to you all, the new aura concept of GCD requirements and casting them. Sure its INTERESTING, but its not FUN. It doesnt sound like fun at all... It sounds like the first 6+ seconds of combat are going to be me casting buffs/debuffs such as taunt, challenge, auras, etc. before I actually get to melee at someone...

It sounds like I will be doing much more "playing my character" than I will be "playing the game".

I want immersive, exciting, where you can lose yourself in the game, not constantly clicking group mates on my HUD to cast buffs or casting debuffs constantly. People play melee classes and tanks to HIT STUFF. And yes, I am over simplifying the class, because there is alot that goes into these things but please consider that Interesting =/= Fun. And the latter is what the game should be going for....
Sulfuras - Knight
Viskag - Chosen
Ashkandi - Swordmaster
Syzzle - Bright Wizard
Curz - Marauder
Andrithil - Blackguard

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Bozzax
Posts: 1693

Re: [Chosen] Auras

Post#24 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:20 pm

peterthepan3 wrote:Swordmaster/BO Mechanic: Stance dancing, certain abilities require a certain stance, you must know how and when to weave between the stances for optimal damage rotations, etc.

BG/IB Mechanic: Dependent on being hit/hitting the enemy for maximum efficiency @ 100 grudge/hate. Essentially, you need to be actively using your oathfriend/dark protector to build up your mechanic, and/or hitting the enemy before you gain access to certain abilities.

Chosen/KOTBS Mechanic: apply 3 strong buffs/debuffs and good to go!

It's a no brainer, really.

Irony I consider BO to be the easier class to play well when comparing w CHO.
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

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th3gatekeeper
Posts: 939

Re: [Chosen] Auras

Post#25 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:34 pm

GodlessCrom wrote:Shatter is a base tank ability. No one uses blazing blade. Same with Sunder. Sm has an actual mechanic you have to juggle, and if you misclick or otherwise screw up, you can **** yourself over. A knight puts on his auras and then does base tank stuff: snare, CC, guard swap, assist. An SM, or an IB for that matter, have extra **** to juggle and worry about and actual conditionals on their abilities that make timing stuff important, in addition to doing the base tank stuff. A knight or a chosen just has to worry about the tank stuff, no mechanics or conditionals at all. Its definitively more difficult, dont try and sell it otherwise.

EDIT: knights literally dont have to choose between buffing and doing anything else. They do it automatically, for no cost. At least an SM can only have either stat steal or resists debuff up at once. And they still have to hit people for it to proc. Still easymode but then again, blade enchants arent even their primary mechanic so meh.


Actually Shatter is a Path of Glory ability.

You can look at Chosen and get the same thing:
12 total "Core" abilities tied to each Path.

I am not saying the MECHANIC doesnt need to be updated. You are referring to the MECHANIC. SM has to hit things to generate buffs/debuffs and cycles through stances. I fully understand this. But speaking frankly, there are not that many "difficult" choices in each stance.

Basic Stance - how many actual abilities to choose from?
- Protection of Hoeth (if you spec for it)
- EB
MAYBE Sapping Strike.... on rare occasions?

What about Improved?
- Wrath is the MOST common - for the debuff.
- QI for Snare.
- MAYBE the occasional IB for a morale drain but unlikely...

Perfect Stance? (assume 2h)
- E.D., more E.D. and more E.D.
with the occasional Gusting Wind, or Dazzling, depending on spec. There are tons of options but I would wager 75% of your time its following the same basic combos with likely <8 moves IN STANCES.

So the trick is peppering in your other requirements such as taunts, challenges etc. But you ALSO dont have to waste time on spending GCDs just to buff or debuff. Your stance abilities do all this for you.

Wrath + 25% chance to proc either a stat steal, or another debuff.

So your entire kit can be used for FUN things like hitting players and making choices between X or Y ability.

Chosen/Knight have more CHOICES, but they have no mechanic to manage.

So the clear solution to me seems NOT to "make their mechanic give them even more choices" but lets learn from the SM/BO tanks as they are arguably the most FUN to play and make them choose between which of their CURRENT choices (GCDs) to use, to help manage their mechanic.

But as I said and I stand behind, you already have "choice" in all three of the tanks, and the class with the least difficult "choices" or "options is really the SM. Because in each stance you only have a few viable options where as KOBS and Chosen have to choose from ALL their abilities at any time.

Bozzax wrote:
peterthepan3 wrote:Swordmaster/BO Mechanic: Stance dancing, certain abilities require a certain stance, you must know how and when to weave between the stances for optimal damage rotations, etc.

BG/IB Mechanic: Dependent on being hit/hitting the enemy for maximum efficiency @ 100 grudge/hate. Essentially, you need to be actively using your oathfriend/dark protector to build up your mechanic, and/or hitting the enemy before you gain access to certain abilities.

Chosen/KOTBS Mechanic: apply 3 strong buffs/debuffs and good to go!

It's a no brainer, really.

Irony I consider BO to be the easier class to play well when comparing w CHO.


Exactly. I wouldnt necessarily say "easier" because SM/BO require more "managing a mechanic" but they definitely have less "competition" for their GCDs than any other tank.

The list of "viable/common" moves to use is the least of all the tanks, and their buffs/debuffs dont consume GCDs (and when they do, its also baked into managing their mechanic to get from A->C stance to use their abilities.
Sulfuras - Knight
Viskag - Chosen
Ashkandi - Swordmaster
Syzzle - Bright Wizard
Curz - Marauder
Andrithil - Blackguard

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GodlessCrom
Posts: 818

Re: [Chosen] Auras

Post#26 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:41 pm

You use Blurring Shock as well. Essential really, massive part of your dps since it synergizes so well with increased crit chance tactic and multi-hit abilities in Perfect Balance. Eagles Flight also probably gets used a bit for 25% parry buff since guard damage is still a thing but a 5 second buff is obnoxious so maybe no one uses it but me, who knows? Also youre forgetting stance shift, and knowing when to use it.

Shatter Confidence and Shatter Enchantment are the same thing by the way, knight just gets it tied to a tree for some reason. Its literally a base mechanic all tanks get: either that, or Sever Blessing. Its not knowing stuff like this that might make people take your ideas less seriously, since you seek to speak authoritatively on class balance and design and such, and yet get basic stuff wrong.

Youre also ignoring the fact that stuff like Blurring Shock and Eagles Flight have relatively short buff timers. 5 and 10 seconds respectively. So you have to monitor that and keep track of them, as opposed to Chosen or Knight buffs which are either 100% uptime or have super generous timers like Suppression with its 15 second duration and 10 second cooldown. We can scoff and say theyre all easy to maintain regardless of buff duration but fact is, shorter buff times means you need to be more vigilant in monitoring them and that requires more effort than just pressing one button every 15 seconds.
Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king!

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th3gatekeeper
Posts: 939

Re: [Chosen] Auras

Post#27 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:16 pm

GodlessCrom wrote:You use Blurring Shock as well. Essential really, massive part of your dps since it synergizes so well with increased crit chance tactic and multi-hit abilities in Perfect Balance. Eagles Flight also probably gets used a bit for 25% parry buff since guard damage is still a thing but a 5 second buff is obnoxious so maybe no one uses it but me, who knows? Also youre forgetting stance shift, and knowing when to use it.

Shatter Confidence and Shatter Enchantment are the same thing by the way, knight just gets it tied to a tree for some reason. Its literally a base mechanic all tanks get: either that, or Sever Blessing. Its not knowing stuff like this that might make people take your ideas less seriously, since you seek to speak authoritatively on class balance and design and such, and yet get basic stuff wrong.

Youre also ignoring the fact that stuff like Blurring Shock and Eagles Flight have relatively short buff timers. 5 and 10 seconds respectively. So you have to monitor that and keep track of them, as opposed to Chosen or Knight buffs which are either 100% uptime or have super generous timers like Suppression with its 15 second duration and 10 second cooldown. We can scoff and say theyre all easy to maintain regardless of buff duration but fact is, shorter buff times means you need to be more vigilant in monitoring them and that requires more effort than just pressing one button every 15 seconds.


I feel like we are saying the same things, but I am trying to not get hung up in the weeds. Yes you can pepper in Blurring Shock as well - its situational though. You might use it before an ED. The point is though, you can do a full rotation in maybe 2 cycles through stances. So 6 abilities and you PRETTY MUCH covered all the bases right?

When you contrast that to the other classes (take chosen) how many abilities will he use? or a BG? Many more than 6...

I am not trying to say it doesnt take skill, I am merely saying there are more CHOICES you have to CHOOSE from. The SM/BO have an advantage of less choices because everything is compartmentalized. At any point in time, several abilities are not really accessible... Like in basic stance, you cannot use improved or perfect stance abilities. Where as all abilities are available to a Knight or Chosen. Which is almost the opposite of a BG (and part of their problem) where almost NONE of their abilities are available until they are near, or at max mechanic, and then they have TOO many choices.

Again, you are focused too much on the weeds and missing the main point.

Choice is already IN THE GAME. You have a TON of abilities that dont last that long. For instance a 2H Chosen will be wanting to use Rending Blade rather frequent. That gives you maybe 3-4 GCDs inbetween. So you will be doing Sever Blessing, maybe a Snare, A punt, a taunt and/or challenge, etc. Keeping Suppression up maybe every OTHER "Rending Blade". But notice what he didnt get to use? Well, a handful of pretty useful abilities such as wounds debuff (situational) or Tooth, or Seeping - to hide other debuffs, or Palsy for some added damage, etc. etc.

So there is already much "choice" we dont need everyone to have access to like 50 abilities because frankly at the end of the day players end up only using like 10 or 15 abilities MOST OF THE TIME.

Im not trying to dig super deep into each class and talk about viablility of X ability in certain circumstances, such as "when to use Withering blow" etc. etc. I am merely saying, at any point in time, a Chosen has plenty of abilities to choose from, and more than an SM - which the SM requires more SKILL to use the mechanic.

So we agree - lets NOT add more "choice/abilities" for the Chosen, instead lets address the "requires skill to use his mechanic" portion.

The way I see us NOT accomplishing this is by "making auras an active ability to use" this merely adds "more choice" which is NOT the same thing as FUN.. Rather if we can make the auras require more SKILL to keep up, by allowing the Chosen to use CURRENT GCDS BETTER (meaning in a more intentional rotation/way) then this does what we want...

Now when a Chosen is thinking "should I refresh Supression, or Ravage, or Tooth, or WHATEVER.." They also need to be thinking "what aura is up or not up". And rather than them having to think "well I better click X ally to re-cast it" they would say "Oh, my Dread aura is not up, I better use a dread ability next then... Supresson refresh it is!"

That is what is more "fun" IMO and what is a more clear way to fix Chosen.... THAT is my point. Im not trying to have a pissing contest with you and diminish SM/BO players saying it takes no skill. The opposite. I am saying the SKILL part of an SM isnt that he has 50 abilities to pick from but that he has LESS abilities at any time to pick from BECAUSE OF HOW HIS MECHANIC WORKS.

So lets do the same with Chosen - Fix auras so they are not "more abilities to use" but rather at interwoven with his CURRENT ONES that then end up helping dictate "Which abilities he SHOULD SEE AS AVAILABLE DUE TO HIS MECHANIC".

Make sense?
Sulfuras - Knight
Viskag - Chosen
Ashkandi - Swordmaster
Syzzle - Bright Wizard
Curz - Marauder
Andrithil - Blackguard

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GodlessCrom
Posts: 818

Re: [Chosen] Auras

Post#28 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:20 pm

Yeah I suppose. I like the idea of spreading buffs and debuffs via attacking, part of why I like BG and IB so much.
Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king!

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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2050

Re: [Chosen] Auras

Post#29 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:48 pm

Making Auras active abillties is imo a pretty bad idea.

The classes allready have a active skill rotations aswell as keeping track guard, challanges and HTL etz. Even more active abilties that will need targeting etz will make em a compelete mess to play tbh. (One of the reason BG fails) Remember the class were designed to have 4 seconds windows between aura toggles to use rotations. So thats also how the active ability skill set been designed to used.

I would make the auras function something like this.

You chose 3 active auras.
Auras from a specific mastery have a proc requirement that lingers for 5 seconds when triggered.
Examples: Dread Auras procs of you making a crit attack. Corruption Auras procs of Sheild block and Discord Auras procs of DIsrupt.
Signature Mastery Abillties require a Aura proc to be used.
Example: You Disrupt an attack and triggers all Discord Auras, so Quake become availible to be used until you no longer have a Discord Aura active.

Sure some Auras needs tweaking in values aswell.
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Penril
Balance Moderator
Posts: 4153

Re: [Chosen] Auras

Post#30 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:55 pm

th3gatekeeper wrote:
I feel like we are saying the same things, but I am trying to not get hung up in the weeds. Yes you can pepper in Blurring Shock as well - its situational though. You might use it before an ED. The point is though, you can do a full rotation in maybe 2 cycles through stances. So 6 abilities and you PRETTY MUCH covered all the bases right?

When you contrast that to the other classes (take chosen) how many abilities will he use? or a BG? Many more than 6...

I am not trying to say it doesnt take skill, I am merely saying there are more CHOICES you have to CHOOSE from. The SM/BO have an advantage of less choices because everything is compartmentalized. At any point in time, several abilities are not really accessible... Like in basic stance, you cannot use improved or perfect stance abilities. Where as all abilities are available to a Knight or Chosen. Which is almost the opposite of a BG (and part of their problem) where almost NONE of their abilities are available until they are near, or at max mechanic, and then they have TOO many choices.


Are you really saying Chosen is harder to play because he has access to all his skills while BO/BG have access to only a few at a time due to their mechanic?
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