[Chosen] Would this work?

[rmpl]

Is it me or does chosen feel really lacklustre compared to the kotbs? I wanted to make one but then I realised chosen doesn't have tactics such as runefang, dirty tricks or focused mending. What's chosen's edge? The morale pump?

[Axerker]

Is it me or does chosen feel really lacklustre compared to the kotbs? I wanted to make one but then I realised chosen doesn't have tactics such as runefang, dirty tricks or focused mending. What's chosen's edge? The morale pump?

The general consensus is that KotBS severely outclasses the Chosen.

Chosen doesn't really have anything that makes it stand out. He's sub-par compared to the rest of the tanks in the game, but the auras are pretty decent. I wouldn't say they're great, just decent. Most of the good ones (i.e. Resist, Toughness, etc.) are only a range of 30'. This means only your group's melee will be effected (and the enemy's melee, unless you're chasing or breaking through frontline, which is usually a good idea if you're not outnumbered). But they don't assist your backline getting sniped by BW/SWs.

I think Chosen is probably the worst tank in the game, and probably a worse melee damage-dealer (in "DPS" build) than any other class. Overall, he needs a rework, primarily his damage tree (he can at least take hits while built defensively, but has low utility otherwise). A lot of people like him because he looks cool and he's easy to play (auras) compared to the BG/BO.

He can be built very defensively still, and be really hard to kill, but not really any harder than the other tanks.

The only thing I would say he has going for him, is that because his damage build is so terrible, you know to remove 2H Chosen from your party right away if you're looking for a tank. Whereas 2H BG/BO can at least kinda hold their own - all nowhere near as well as 2H IB, SM, and KotBS (who are wayyy to 2H friendly). Like, seriously, a 2H Chosen is about as effective as a (current) melee Squig Herder. They just aren't meant to happen with their current setups. (This doesn't stop you from seeing probably 60% of Chosen going 2H though)

There WAS one single niche that 2H Chosen had, which was the 25% damage reduction tactic on crits. That made them extremely viable in 1v1 (and 1vX if it proc'd on AoE). Now, they're garbage (first that was nerfed to 10% damage reduction, which was pretty much useless, and now its 10% more Crit chance debuff on the target(s) - which I consider to be better than the 10% damage reduction, but still 10x worse than 25% damage reduction [which was the only thing that made 2H Chosen partially viable - removing it broke the class as an off-tank damage role]).


Here are the only things that require a Great Weapon:
- Rending Blade (13pt): 5s CD, Undefendable AoE
----- Not a bad skill, due to undefendable and Chosen having no good AoE damage output otherwise
- Oppressing Blows (Tactic) (11pt): 15% Crit when using Great Weapon
----- Pretty much mandatory if going 2H
- Hastened Dismissal (Tactic) (Core): Reduces Repel's Cooldown by 50% (10s to 5s)
----- The Knockback is what makes this skill good, which can be used with SnB. The Cooldown reduction is negligible.

Those all come at the cost of:
- Blocking
- Hold the Line
- Oppression (If going mid-tree)
- Tactics:
--- 200 Morale on Block
--- 25% Parry on Block

Overall, Chosen have better options in SnB than 2H (despite SnB still being low-tier).

[ragafury]

- AOE stagger
- the pump tactic makes chosen the last guy on destro who has his morales fast up while don't requiring some shaman shenanigans and raze is king in RvR for Destro, it's the last working morale destro has in terms of DPS which is reachable in a reasonable amount of time, if you stack drain marauders you also have great fang by marauder. but than you have basically a 24v24 setup which you bring to an asynchron multiplayer (you can get zerged pretty hard if you overcommit on those)
- 3 sec KD when specced
- easy and accesible wounds debuff which doesn't ruin a large scale setup (2hd BG I look at you)
- 25% disorient, since BO doesn't run it anymore it's the best source for it
- anti heal aura
- basic stats auras (30ft full value, 100ft half value if I'm correct)
- resistant reduce which is has good sorc / magus synergy
- almost spammable mini group dps increase with ToT when chop faster'd! up
- Ravage™ (mmmmh spirit dmg)
-punt with ok range, upgradable by tactic and 2hd for loldps
- otherwise flexible filler tactics: +heal, disrupt speedy gonzales mode, -crit if you start things up, mixed defenses
- well balanced stat growth
-25% parry selfbuff
- overall well balanced between support and durability (support overperforming and too easy accessible which may get nerfed in future updates according to multiple other forum discussions)

drawbacks are:
- "0 DPS" tank in snb mode
- "low" on wounds
- "meh" DPS in 2hd, for pug farm it's still enough


overall chosens support is a really solid group backbone on his own, on a slot which keeps the group really flexible in there layout.

compared to KotbS support and flexibility most tanks suck. so perhabs a bad benchmark kek.

[Collateral]

Chosen the worst tank in the game? Can I ask what you are smoking? He's certainly not the best dd, but he is soooo far from being the worst tank. They are still your go to tank for either wb or small group play. The are incredibly tanky, offer a variety of buffs and debuffs in form of auras, and have a decent pool of cc abilities that can easily control a fight.

I (and many others) agree that the chosen is really lacking in the 2h department after the cs change. But as I said they are very far from being the worst tanks.

[GodlessCrom]

For whatever reason, chosen seems to attract folks with inferiority complex who see it as forever the worst, most put upon class in the game. Dunno whats up with that, but its surprisingly common in game from what I seen. Kinda silly, for all the reasons ragah and Grurfarg mentioned.

[Axerker]

Spoiler:

For whatever reason, chosen seems to attract folks with inferiority complex who see it as forever the worst, most put upon class in the game. Dunno whats up with that, but its surprisingly common in game from what I seen. Kinda silly, for all the reasons ragah and Grurfarg mentioned.

All of the things Ragah mentioned were not really positives, though.

- AOE stagger A detriment with inexperienced players, which as you mentioned is the majority of Chosens.
Most of them instantly follow Quake with Blast Wave for whatever reason.
- pump tactic I don't consider this worth using over the much better tactics. You already build M2 fast enough without this in WB play. And if you're talking about Morale bombing, its useless if you get to M2 morale before the rest of your team does. You'll just be at M3 by the time they get to M2, so you wasted a tactic slot.
- 3 sec KD when specced A good Knockdown when specced - most should be specced for it, but often requires RR50+ unless you trade-off something else.
- easy and accesible wounds debuff The skill is relatively bad, but only accounted for since its Chosen's only AoE (Quake not really included). 750 HP loss is good, but 30' Range is low (normal for melee AoEs, but still low). I use it every time its off Cooldown, since it technically does double the "damage" of any other skill you have (to all targets around you), but I don't consider it a good skill. One of Chosen's better ones, but bad when considering all classes skills.
- 25% disorient Most never pick this skill up, and shouldn't. 30' range makes it useless.
- anti heal aura I personally use this skill situationally, and believe it to be a good skill. Most believe its terrible,
because its overwritten by 50% HD, but 25% HD on all enemy frontliners is a pretty great investment, in my opinion. In small scale, it is less useful.
- basic stats auras (30ft full value, 100ft half value if I'm correct) Its 30' for the Debuff and 100' for the Buff.
These are what make the Chosen viable.
- resistant reduce which is has good sorc / magus synergy As long as the enemy is within 30' of you. Chosen's most necessary Aura, though - both for Resistance Debuff/Buff and popping off Blast Waves.
- almost spammable mini group dps increase with ToT when chop faster'd! up Not a bad skill for a tank, but still mediocre. Its 100 damage for up to 5 group members, totalling 500 damage. 2 of those are typically a healer, so this brings it to 1 other Tank and 2 DPS, for a total of 300 bonus damage. Since it only scales with Dread tree, its not that useful on Tank builds,
but technically should deal more damage than a Ravage assuming your 1 Tank + 2 DPS are attacking.
- Ravage™ (mmmmh spirit dmg) Go-to spam skill, and a decent one due to Spirit damage. Some prefer Cleave,
at the cost of damage and 5 AP for reliability. Anyone specced in Discord will prioritize Ravage, Corruption can go either way.
-punt with ok range, upgradable by tactic and 2hd for loldps Standard punt is fine, I started using the Tactic this week for the first time (SnB, no CD reduction - which isn't necessary). The punt changes from about a 2 second KB into a 4 second KB. Situationally good, though. Great for catching up, Quaking, and Punting someone back to group. But really disorienting when you just punt someone to CC them, as they are not visible on anyone's screen anymore due to going about 100' in the air. Can't be attacked by melee while punted, and you have to guess where they will land (lag/hitboxes sometimes make you think you're in front of them, when you're actually on their side).
- otherwise flexible filler tactics: +heal, disrupt speedy gonzales mode, -crit if you start things up, mixed defenses I enjoy their tactics, but feel KotBS has better ones.
- well balanced stat growth Couldn't tell you, but don't feel my tank stats are lacking.
-25% parry selfbuff This is good due to over 100% uptime. But it is absolutely necessary. Chosen gear has almost no Weapon Skill. Works well with their Block tactic increasing Parry by 25%. I have 25% Parry (with RR Parry maxed, or nearly maxed), plus 25% from buff, plus 25% from Block tactic = 75%. Let's you build Block > Parry, which I would consider much more important.
- overall well balanced between support and durability (support overperforming and too easy accessible which may get nerfed in future updates according to multiple other forum discussions) I think the class is balanced, but still worse than the other 5 tanks overall, even if to a small extent. But different tanks are good for different situations. Chosen is decent for all situations, but I wouldn't say they excel at any given one. I would take a BG for duo's, and a BO for 6v6, personally.

Don't use fancy colors for your posts - Penril

[GodlessCrom]

I disagree with pretty much everything you wrote. Chosen could use some reworking, wont deny that, but there is a reason it is a staple in both six mans and warbands. Also, many of the abilities you think are poor are just...not? Super punt, wounds debuff, morale pump (pray4destro), and no set-up required KD are mighty. Chosen is a bit boring, but it is tanky, has shatter immune aoe buffs, and on demand CC. And morale pump, which even when lolnerfed is more than order tanks get (cue certain Chosen coming in and claiming it was never good wah wah wah). And even 2h chosen now get stacking aoe 10% crit buff with Crip Strike and Rending Blabe. Yeah, kotbs is better but kotbs is better than every tank in the game so meh.

[Axerker]

Well, if KotBS is better, then it pretty much invalidates anything that is considered good about the Chosen.

Morale is the same for Destro and Order, excluding Marauder. All Tanks get Raze, and as mentioned its only really effective if using it all at the same time (which doesn't happen in pugs). Getting to M2 faster is useless if you're waiting for the other Tanks - who aren't using Morale-building tactics - to get to it as well. Morale bombs, when they happen, are typically at a choke-point (Keep door going down) or after both sides have been stalemating (like Bridges) for a few minutes, when you're able to get to M3+ anyways. It would only work if all of your Tanks are using Morale builders, which most won't.

Super Punt requires a tactic that doesn't benefit your tanking, only your ability to get 1 kill at a time - which is not a tank's job anyway. Its great for roaming, and small scale, but that's about it. In WB, where you're taking most of the attacks, it has very little utility over the standard KB. Wounds debuff is good due to lowering enemy's health by about 10% across the board (in "melee" range). BGs have an on-command KD as well, BOs require Best Plan unfortunately.

The 2H Crit buff is better than the 10% Damage debuff, but I'd certainly rather them have the 25% damage debuff again, and just make it so it can't apply on AoEs.

I think Chosen is in an okay spot. Probably a bit underwhelming, due to played bias and you get irritated when your mirror severely outclasses you. (Just made a Choppa as well, guess I'm a masochist and enjoy the underdog)

[GodlessCrom]

Lol yes one class being better means everything your class has doesnt matter. Thats why knight of the blazing sun and slayer are the only classes played in the game on either side, obviously.

Both Black orc and Chosen have morale builder. Even since the nerf, many still spec them. And chosen plus black orc are easily 75% of tanks on destro. The rest are 2h chosen and bg who roam in small groups; or they roleplay as Destros version of Asianprotagonist. Either way, they still reach raze m2 before order tanks. Its an advantage, whether or not you use it.

BG kd requires block or parry. Its not on demand. It also scales on hate, so yes it can be a 5 sec kd (with 50 second immunity yay) or it can be a 2 sec. If they are 2h they get an on demand one, but then youre a 2h BG in a pug warband, which is garbo for everyone involved.

But yeah, chosen worst tank on destro. 100% titanium hard mode playing one, who even bothers.

[Penril]

If you want to whine about which tank is better, take it to PMs. If you want a buff/nerf, go make a proposal.

Stop derailing this thread.