[Chosen] Embrace the Winds

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truewage
Posts: 4

Re: [Chosen] Embrace the Winds

Post#11 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:12 am

kmark101 wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:56 am
I read your thread and proposal and you are extremely biased in your opinion about chosen.

You only see Kotbs where it's slightly better, but refuse to acknowledge the fact that Chosen does spirit damage and vastly outdamages Kotbs on every possible level (and lately many other tanks as well, hello new Ravage spam in Oppressor gear...).

If anything, Chosen's damage potential should be nerfed to Kotbs levels, before you start to discuss balance of tactics.
+1

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Tesq
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Re: [Chosen] Embrace the Winds

Post#12 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:20 am

rTrSleepy wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:31 am
Given that the 25% heal debuff aura is really garbage and I can't think of a single instance where it is actually viable, requiring a tactic to make it 40% heal debuff, seems the most interesting.

You have to understand that 30 ft is basically standing right on top of them. What I would consider making it is a tactic that only effects the aura. Otherwise you obviously would not use the HD aura and just use it on top of other real HD's and make them 65% debuffs which would be waaaay too much.

6v6 Chosen is already 2firm tactics and 2 other flavor tactics so there is no loss in slotting this. Requiring you to run the HD aura and not AP would be a risk/reward type of thing. Results in a melee train would be constant 40% HD as long as Chosen is not punted and no more than 50% at max with a HD from an MDPS.

Possible consequences from this change could be Choppa running 2h and Chop fasta.
Mara's dropping their HD tactic and running brute force.
We's dropping Kiss of Death for added dmg or init debuff.
DPS Dok running Horrifying Offering and if combined with a CD decreaser could be a spamable 50ap drain, which is better than than the ap aura debuff

Linking a perma viable HD to a tank could be a game changer and buff to Destros dmg which is honestly needed. This one change could drastically swing the power of the best on paper 6 man from order to destro.

From anaIyzing both sides it seems to be a fair buff and I support it as long as it is not more than a 50% HD.

Stop suggest broken stuff, the fact that is bad for small scale dosent make it bad for rvr aswell. That aura effect dosen'r need enchantment.

Also those values are what make rp/zeal debuff interesting even if they have a longer downtime.
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-"Loop warned into oblivion" --> smell like chaosy enought :D
-Nazgul--> ambitious but rubbish, cit Blast :D
-GMs --> dosent matter what they say not, they get offend by colors so watch out plebs! :D

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Tesq
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Re: [Chosen] Embrace the Winds

Post#13 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:23 am

truewage wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:12 am
kmark101 wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:56 am
I read your thread and proposal and you are extremely biased in your opinion about chosen.

You only see Kotbs where it's slightly better, but refuse to acknowledge the fact that Chosen does spirit damage and vastly outdamages Kotbs on every possible level (and lately many other tanks as well, hello new Ravage spam in Oppressor gear...).

If anything, Chosen's damage potential should be nerfed to Kotbs levels, before you start to discuss balance of tactics.
+1
Ch dont outdmg anyother tank sy for your delusion. It have the best substain not the best burst.
You also dont know how good is packed right now kobs regarding utility. Aswell as yout chnce to to dmg are slime since you have to do tank job if enemy tanks have a little of brain.
Image

-"Loop warned into oblivion" --> smell like chaosy enought :D
-Nazgul--> ambitious but rubbish, cit Blast :D
-GMs --> dosent matter what they say not, they get offend by colors so watch out plebs! :D

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kmark101
Posts: 210

Re: [Chosen] Embrace the Winds

Post#14 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:40 pm

Tesq wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:23 am

Ch dont outdmg anyother tank sy for your delusion. It have the best substain not the best burst.
You also dont know how good is packed right now kobs regarding utility. Aswell as yout chnce to to dmg are slime since you have to do tank job if enemy tanks have a little of brain.
Aha so tell me which other tank can spam 400-500+ damage hits now besides Chosen with Ravage?
I think you haven't seen the new wave of chosens in oppressor gear and what numbers are they pumping out... I'm on the receiving end every day.

Even Relentless (684 damage over 3 seconds) is superior to Tree Hit Combo (639 damage over 3 seconds) or Grudge Born Fury (520 damage over 3 seconds, on a higher level skill... totally retarded).
Gryyw - Ironbreaker

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TenTonHammer
Posts: 3685

Re: [Chosen] Embrace the Winds

Post#15 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:55 pm

kmark101 wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:40 pm
Tesq wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:23 am

Ch dont outdmg anyother tank sy for your delusion. It have the best substain not the best burst.
You also dont know how good is packed right now kobs regarding utility. Aswell as yout chnce to to dmg are slime since you have to do tank job if enemy tanks have a little of brain.
Aha so tell me which other tank can spam 400-500+ damage hits now besides Chosen with Ravage?
I think you haven't seen the new wave of chosens in oppressor gear and what numbers are they pumping out... I'm on the receiving end every day.

Even Relentless (684 damage over 3 seconds) is superior to Tree Hit Combo (639 damage over 3 seconds) or Grudge Born Fury (520 damage over 3 seconds, on a higher level skill... totally retarded).
You forget that BO has Gork smash and stab you gooder
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Tesq
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Re: [Chosen] Embrace the Winds

Post#16 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:44 pm

TenTonHammer wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:55 pm
kmark101 wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:40 pm
Tesq wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:23 am

Ch dont outdmg anyother tank sy for your delusion. It have the best substain not the best burst.
You also dont know how good is packed right now kobs regarding utility. Aswell as yout chnce to to dmg are slime since you have to do tank job if enemy tanks have a little of brain.
Aha so tell me which other tank can spam 400-500+ damage hits now besides Chosen with Ravage?
I think you haven't seen the new wave of chosens in oppressor gear and what numbers are they pumping out... I'm on the receiving end every day.

Even Relentless (684 damage over 3 seconds) is superior to Tree Hit Combo (639 damage over 3 seconds) or Grudge Born Fury (520 damage over 3 seconds, on a higher level skill... totally retarded).
You forget that BO has Gork smash and stab you gooder
man ..........look any chosen skill that does spi dmg....sm have the same with higher tooltips ( channeling especially)

SM/BO do double the dmg than any ch/kobs can do, rest is just bad building.... also this is just bias it's not ravage doing high dmg at max is touch of palsy doing some extensive straw...if you take 400 dmg from ravage that ch is super off or you are simply bad build. (with decent spi you should take max , 300 ; under guard is 150...

give us a screen aswell? so we can point how bad spi res you have lol!
Image

-"Loop warned into oblivion" --> smell like chaosy enought :D
-Nazgul--> ambitious but rubbish, cit Blast :D
-GMs --> dosent matter what they say not, they get offend by colors so watch out plebs! :D

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Bozzax
Posts: 2016

Re: [Chosen] Embrace the Winds

Post#17 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:46 pm

Focus mending and chosen self heal aren’t mirrors.

FM <> CS was balancing eachother

Fix that /end thread

(SORC grp damage <> SW group crits)
(Kniggit crits & SF <> Chosen, BO morale)

The only part that was a tad skewed was the inc in heal crits (knigg, SW, IB) that I personally always considered being a faulty implementation bug.
Last edited by Bozzax on Fri Jun 21, 2019 7:40 am, edited 4 times in total.
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

anarchypark
Posts: 1284

Re: [Chosen] Embrace the Winds

Post#18 » Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:37 am

you can't compare tactics 1 by 1.
each tank have unique tactics - flat bonus, conditional, offensive, defensive, mechanic related etc.
plus racial tactics, it create myriad combo.

for example of flat bonus,
SM racial - Discerning Offence : 10% strikethrough
SM unique - Isha's Protection : 20% heal buff

BG racial - Dark Blessings : 10% heal buff
BG unique - Malekith's Bulwark : -75% magic dmg, not working though

Chosen racial - Warped Flesh : absorb shield
Chosen unique - Flawless Armor : -10% ctbc

Knight racial - Emperor's Ward : absorb shield
Knight unique - Gilded Shield : 15% disrupt, require shield, kinda conditional

now add conditional, offensive, defensive etc.
as u noted, some tactics are mirrored inside mastery tree of other class.
you can't say unbalance based on heal buff tactic.

goal and result are same but methods to achieve it are different.
for example,
you can reach said tankyness by 20% heal buff + absorb.
same tankyness by -10% ctbc + parry buff.
same by Vigilance + extra
lists are endless and there are +- creating various combo.

i wonder if there are standard to compare.
1% heal buff = ?% parry = ?% ctbc = ?absorb etc
until then, find extream case and fix it. that's only way i think.
and tanks are not extreamly broken.
SM8, SW7, AM7, WL4, KoBS4, WP7, WH4, SL3
BG7, Sorc6, DoK7, WE6, Ch6, Magi7, Mara6, Ze6, BO3, SH4, Shm5
SC summary - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20415
( last update : 2018.10.26)

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Tesq
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Re: [Chosen] Embrace the Winds

Post#19 » Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:36 am

anarchypark wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:37 am
you can't compare tactics 1 by 1.
each tank have unique tactics - flat bonus, conditional, offensive, defensive, mechanic related etc.
plus racial tactics, it create myriad combo.

for example of flat bonus,
SM racial - Discerning Offence : 10% strikethrough
SM unique - Isha's Protection : 20% heal buff

BG racial - Dark Blessings : 10% heal buff
BG unique - Malekith's Bulwark : -75% magic dmg, not working though

Chosen racial - Warped Flesh : absorb shield
Chosen unique - Flawless Armor : -10% ctbc

Knight racial - Emperor's Ward : absorb shield
Knight unique - Gilded Shield : 15% disrupt, require shield, kinda conditional

now add conditional, offensive, defensive etc.
as u noted, some tactics are mirrored inside mastery tree of other class.
you can't say unbalance based on heal buff tactic.

goal and result are same but methods to achieve it are different.
for example,
you can reach said tankyness by 20% heal buff + absorb.
same tankyness by -10% ctbc + parry buff.
same by Vigilance + extra
lists are endless and there are +- creating various combo.

i wonder if there are standard to compare.
1% heal buff = ?% parry = ?% ctbc = ?absorb etc
until then, find extream case and fix it. that's only way i think.
and tanks are not extreamly broken.
Leaving bg/kobs/ch/slay all other classes follow both a mirror and cross mirtoring pattern.

Ch is cross mirrored with elements from both SM and ib and viceversa.

Touch of palsy --mirrored on ib
Ravage/cleave-- mirrored on sm

Also Balance is not done in a vacuum classers skill have the same power level.
Image

-"Loop warned into oblivion" --> smell like chaosy enought :D
-Nazgul--> ambitious but rubbish, cit Blast :D
-GMs --> dosent matter what they say not, they get offend by colors so watch out plebs! :D

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herooftime
Posts: 27

Re: [Chosen] Embrace the Winds

Post#20 » Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:56 pm

Thank you everyone so far for the feedback. The more we discuss the closer we will get to a fair proposal to help balance a class the is under performing next to the other tank options in the game.


rTrSleepy wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:31 am
Given that the 25% heal debuff aura is really garbage and I can't think of a single instance where it is actually viable, requiring a tactic to make it 40% heal debuff, seems the most interesting.

You have to understand that 30 ft is basically standing right on top of them. What I would consider making it is a tactic that only effects the aura. Otherwise you obviously would not use the HD aura and just use it on top of other real HD's and make them 65% debuffs which would be waaaay too much.

6v6 Chosen is already 2firm tactics and 2 other flavor tactics so there is no loss in slotting this. Requiring you to run the HD aura and not AP would be a risk/reward type of thing. Results in a melee train would be constant 40% HD as long as Chosen is not punted and no more than 50% at max with a HD from an MDPS.

Possible consequences from this change could be Choppa running 2h and Chop fasta.
Mara's dropping their HD tactic and running brute force.
We's dropping Kiss of Death for added dmg or init debuff.
DPS Dok running Horrifying Offering and if combined with a CD decreaser could be a spamable 50ap drain, which is better than than the ap aura debuff

Linking a perma viable HD to a tank could be a game changer and buff to Destros dmg which is honestly needed. This one change could drastically swing the power of the best on paper 6 man from order to destro.

From anaIyzing both sides it seems to be a fair buff and I support it as long as it is not more than a 50% HD.
I thought this would be an interesting idea too. Something that could help elevate the status of the class back in like with the other tanks in the game. 65% heal debuff might be a little over powered, but you have to consider that the Chosen has to sacrifice an aura and tactic for it, as well as needing to invest a lot into the Path of Discord, and a mdps near by to apply the 50% debuff. I think even just a consistant 40% heal debuff would give the class something powerful, fluffy, and unique.



kmark101 wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:56 am
I read your thread and proposal and you are extremely biased in your opinion about chosen.

You only see Kotbs where it's slightly better, but refuse to acknowledge the fact that Chosen does spirit damage and vastly outdamages Kotbs on every possible level (and lately many other tanks as well, hello new Ravage spam in Oppressor gear...).

If anything, Chosen's damage potential should be nerfed to Kotbs levels, before you start to discuss balance of tactics.

I want to contain this forum thread to specifically discuss the tactics in question, but I feel as though I do need to address this response. RETURN OF RECKONING IS NOT AGE OF RECKONING. This reply grinds my gears because it really shows the lack of knowledge certain players have on the classes in this game.

I will admit that I am biased toward my class. Chosen is the class I’ve put the most time into., but on the bright side this experience gives me a better understanding of the class and what it needs to perform on par with other classes. I understand that Chosen isn't the only class that needs some tweaking to improve its effectiveness, but Chosen is that class that I know and feel comfortable speaking about.

I acknowledge that Chosen do more damage than Knight but this is trivial considering IB, SM, BG, and BO ALL out damage the Chosen. The Knights under performance in damage is vastly outweighed by all the utility and defensive cooldowns the Knight gains access too. The fact is that Chosen don't bring enough damage to outweigh their lack of group utility, and don’t bring enough utility to outweigh its weak damage output.



anarchypark wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:37 am
you can't compare tactics 1 by 1.
each tank have unique tactics - flat bonus, conditional, offensive, defensive, mechanic related etc.
plus racial tactics, it create myriad combo.

This is a good point and honestly one of the best parts of this game is finding out how class abilities interact and combo with each other. I would love if every class had their own unique and balanced abilities, but it is a near impossible task. You can't deny that these tactics are very similar, but with one key difference, the Chosen ability is extremely expensive compared to the SM and Knight equivalents and vastly less potent.
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