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Your thoughts about Mara

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Jildaz
Posts: 163

Re: Your thoughts about Mara

Post#41 » Thu Feb 18, 2021 12:26 pm

wachlarz wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:01 pm
Mergrim wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:58 am
wachlarz wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 10:47 am
So U play monstro mara a aoe sub-class in wb and U use tac for aoe detaut that STOP working 1.2 sec when U use it ? For sure Theoddone use longer detaut tac in ranked 🤣
Where i write i use aoe detaunt tactic on monstro spec? It's good tactic if you play single target, for aoe pure waste. Definitely prefer fight vs WE or Choppa on ranked.
I will tell you a secret if you use aoe detaunt it not break if you not use dmg skill, so if you have problem with survi on aoe mara(LOL) then you can aoe detaunt and kite enemy.

ST mara are better then any other melle class on destro side, only assault sw is better.
Click any maruder U see. 90% of them are monstro. if somthing is good ppl play this. Ther is a reason why ppl dont play sava/brut.
Melle class can kite ? Oo or run away in panic ? 🤔
Wrong, Monstro Mara plays Monstro because only 10% of Mara players are skilled enough to switch stance and use ST abilities rather than spam 1 button, and 3 skill in total for easy mode / win monstro stance provide.
Maras dont play Sava / brut because it requires brain and skills to play, not because its not op.
Gwelthas : WL 86 The Eternal Host
Gwelthaz : IB 86 3rd Bitterstone Thunderers
Gweltaz : SL 83 3rd Bitterstone Thunderers
Ashitakah : SW 82 The Eternal Host

Gwelth : marauder 80
Gwelt : BG 81

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MetaFR
Posts: 3

Re: Your thoughts about Mara

Post#42 » Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:10 pm

well, quite offensive comment out there @Jildaz.
I know a bunch of marauder who actually switch stance when needed whatever their build is. it's simply core mechanism. But in short pace fight on short scale environnement,you do switch one time. maybe. only because u need that HD -25%/dots/tease a proc or whatever you need to secure a kill.
It's your pov, i'll respect that anyway, but you're wrong on one point tho.
maras dont play sava/brut because the lack of brain hehe, but rather because the current meta of the game pigeon-hole them in the aoe department .
But sometime, especially when roaming in organized, you are free to wander in other tree, wich most 60+ mara do I believe. or they simply are not invited in these organized.
And when playing ranked, small scale, suddenly, monstro is mostly a go for 10 point if that nifty pbaoe kb is needed.otherwise it's skipped entirely.
so guess what? it has nothing to do with brain hopefully :D

that being said, stances (SW 's included) need to have cooldown reworked (5s) because of the pace of fight and because it's core mechanism. It's out of GCD, but that is not enough.
IT has been already said a zillion time that mara need love and that would be one of the nice change that could be made easy, without it being OP.

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Jildaz
Posts: 163

Re: Your thoughts about Mara

Post#43 » Thu Feb 18, 2021 5:07 pm

MetaFR wrote: Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:10 pm well, quite offensive comment out there @Jildaz.
I know a bunch of marauder who actually switch stance when needed whatever their build is. it's simply core mechanism. But in short pace fight on short scale environnement,you do switch one time. maybe. only because u need that HD -25%/dots/tease a proc or whatever you need to secure a kill.
It's your pov, i'll respect that anyway, but you're wrong on one point tho.
maras dont play sava/brut because the lack of brain hehe, but rather because the current meta of the game pigeon-hole them in the aoe department .
But sometime, especially when roaming in organized, you are free to wander in other tree, wich most 60+ mara do I believe. or they simply are not invited in these organized.
And when playing ranked, small scale, suddenly, monstro is mostly a go for 10 point if that nifty pbaoe kb is needed.otherwise it's skipped entirely.
so guess what? it has nothing to do with brain hopefully :D

that being said, stances (SW 's included) need to have cooldown reworked (5s) because of the pace of fight and because it's core mechanism. It's out of GCD, but that is not enough.
IT has been already said a zillion time that mara need love and that would be one of the nice change that could be made easy, without it being OP.
Did not mean to be offensive, i mostly wanted to point out that AOE tree is way too strong for what it requires as a gameplay / skill basis compared to Bruta/sava. Why bother to play the hard way for few benefits when you can kill anything while spamming just one/Two abilities. I dont blame Marauder players for taking the easy path :p Same goes for many other classes which can be very fun to play, but one Aoe OP tree make it dumb and too easy as even Joe average will perform and rekt things, which it should not.
Gwelthas : WL 86 The Eternal Host
Gwelthaz : IB 86 3rd Bitterstone Thunderers
Gweltaz : SL 83 3rd Bitterstone Thunderers
Ashitakah : SW 82 The Eternal Host

Gwelth : marauder 80
Gwelt : BG 81

Moonbiter
Posts: 66

Re: Your thoughts about Mara

Post#44 » Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:34 pm

Discussions of mara's lack of mobility are always the same: trolls switches the point to aoe dps.

Lets talk about single target mara (sav+brut, no monstro) mobility and auxillary skills.

1) vs WL
-Detaunt, charge, break root are all the same.
-Pull vs Pounce. Pretty obvious that Pounce is faster and works 2 ways: attack and retreat
--Nothing (no monster knock) vs Knock


2) vs SW
-aoe Detaunt vs Detaunt
-Charge + break root vs back jump + aoe snare
-Nothing (no monster knock) vs Knock

3) A slayer is a slight modified mirror of a choppa
4) The same for WE and WH

Feel free to correct me.
Single target mara mobility is unbalanced vs WL and vs SW.

rrrutsss
Posts: 166

Re: Your thoughts about Mara

Post#45 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:12 am

Moonbiter wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:34 pm Discussions of mara's lack of mobility are always the same: trolls switches the point to aoe dps.

Lets talk about single target mara (sav+brut, no monstro) mobility and auxillary skills.

1) vs WL
-Detaunt, charge, break root are all the same.
-Pull vs Pounce. Pretty obvious that Pounce is faster and works 2 ways: attack and retreat
--Nothing (no monster knock) vs Knock


2) vs SW
-aoe Detaunt vs Detaunt
-Charge + break root vs back jump + aoe snare
-Nothing (no monster knock) vs Knock

3) A slayer is a slight modified mirror of a choppa
4) The same for WE and WH

Feel free to correct me.
Single target mara mobility is unbalanced vs WL and vs SW.
And mara has bad healdebuff and to get iy better you have to lose tactic slot
no other dps has to lose tactic slot to get 50% healdebuff.

And if you change stances you lose mastery tactics bonuses that are connected to stances.
Wl can change stances and bonuses stay.

Wl pet can die and he still has bonuses.

Sw can change stances and still got bonuses

Mergrim
Posts: 238

Re: Your thoughts about Mara

Post#46 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:47 am

rrrutsss wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:12 am
Moonbiter wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:34 pm Discussions of mara's lack of mobility are always the same: trolls switches the point to aoe dps.

Lets talk about single target mara (sav+brut, no monstro) mobility and auxillary skills.

1) vs WL
-Detaunt, charge, break root are all the same.
-Pull vs Pounce. Pretty obvious that Pounce is faster and works 2 ways: attack and retreat
--Nothing (no monster knock) vs Knock


2) vs SW
-aoe Detaunt vs Detaunt
-Charge + break root vs back jump + aoe snare
-Nothing (no monster knock) vs Knock

3) A slayer is a slight modified mirror of a choppa
4) The same for WE and WH

Feel free to correct me.
Single target mara mobility is unbalanced vs WL and vs SW.
And mara has bad healdebuff and to get iy better you have to lose tactic slot
no other dps has to lose tactic slot to get 50% healdebuff.

And if you change stances you lose mastery tactics bonuses that are connected to stances.
Wl can change stances and bonuses stay.

Wl pet can die and he still has bonuses.

Sw can change stances and still got bonuses
Mara is only one class that no need spec for incoming heal debuff. It's core ability.

There is any mara that use mastery tactic that connected to stances? if yes then he is dumb.
WL lost 50% crit dmg if pet is dead. You have 50% crit dmg tactic without penalty.
I'm not say wl is bad. Both class need huge nerf. We should compare dps/survi/mobility/utility to choppa/slayer.

Mara deal same dmg on city like choppa with 4xbetter survi spamming just 2 button.
WL deal more dmg then slayer on city spamming just 2 buttons with better survi+mobility.
There is no logic with balance now.

Sponn
Suspended
Posts: 200

Re: Your thoughts about Mara

Post#47 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:10 am

Spoiler:
Foofmonger wrote: Wed Mar 25, 2020 6:18 pm Long time Marauder player here, and I don't love your suite of suggestions.

The problem people generally have with balancing games is wanting to do too much at once, instead of iterative A/B testing. The chance of the devs doing a "full Marauder overhaul" in a single patch is 0, it's just not realistic at all. Also, a lot of the "swap this around or completely rework this ability" are effectively pipe dreams.

Yes, I agree with some of your points, and I used to argue against them in the official Warhammer forums in terms of Marauder balance. I had campaigned for years that the 3, 3 point tactics that are mutation locked are functionally worthless tactics and wastes, but to be honest there are a ton of tactics in this game that are effectively garbage, and even if the devs changed these, theres still a 90% chance you'd never use them over other options.

How balance should be done: In stages, and iterative.

How what changes should be defined: You need to look at the overall meta-game, class specifications, mirrors, etc.. it's not an easy thing and balance does not happen in a vacuum. You can't just compare the Marauder to say a White Lion or a SW and call it a day, you need to compare it's capabilities holistically against every other class and role in the entire game, to really properly balance anything. So with that being said, the question really is, "What is currently wrong with the Marauder"? If we can answer that question, then we can figure out what balances changes are needed for the class.

Now, I've only been on this server playing for a few weeks, and I'm far from max RR, so I'm not exactly sure what is up with the Marauder here, but from my reading through the patch logs and forums, as well as seeing how other classes are currently applied in the meta, here's my rough analysis:

1. ROR comes out - classes are effectively the live versions, but its at a low level and there is no endgame. At this point, the Marauder eats an early series of nerfs (many to the Savagery path), to balance them for their early game power. Most other classes had not yet had any significant changes or buffs.
2. Years pass, and the devs do a variety of balance changes and passes on a variety of classes and archetypes. However, they basically leave the marauder untouched during this period of time.
3. We are now here, with many of the classes in this game being in better shape or more powerful than they were on live, with a few glaring exceptions. One of the most obvious exception is the Marauder, who is actually still nerfed below where they were on live. This seems to indicate that the developers have power-creeped the classes in this game to a degree, but in doing so left some of the behind as they may not have done the same level of pass on all classes. I'm not ragging on the devs at all, they are doing a better job of balancing this game then Mythic did in my person opinion, just stating basically what happened.

So really what you have is most classes being better than they were on live, with the Marauder actually being worse. Now, we have to say "why the heck is that".

So, lets start with the nerf. In the current T4 meta with Sov gear, and years and years of classses being buffed, it's pretty obvious that the early Marauder nerf on this server was a good idea at the time, but the times have changed. The easiest and first thing the devs should do is revert all Savagery nerfs from the early days of ROR. It was a nice idea/experiment, but it was only a good idea in the context of T2/T3 level caps and people having awful gear and getting wounds debuffed. The Marauder class should be put back to where it was (power wise) on live, that's at least a start.

Now, after that is done, some time should pass, we should test out the changes and see if that is enough to make the Mara more competitive and what it should be.

If it isn't, then I would suggest "low hanging parity fruit" as the next step. What I mean by this is easy/quick changes that bring parity to both Order/Destro as well as MDPS/RDPS, etc... Some examples of options here are things like reducing the cooldown of Mutated Aggressor to match the shadow warrior, or giving Marauders the teleport that was given to shadow warriors (again), or whatever. It's the things that are given to Order and not properly mirroed onto Destro. Now this does not mean you ask or give Marauder "pounce", Squigs already have a "pounce" variant, and therefore there is already parity. Asking for pounce for the Marauder here would show an immature understanding of parity and balanace.

And then you repeat the process, you make 1-2 tweaks, test them out for a bit, and then eventually you will land on a spot where the Marauder feels "right" in terms of overall balance.

To summarize: My cursory analysis of Marauder balance on this server leads me to believe that their primary issues are directly related to the rest of the balancing
that the ROR devs have done. If the devs never buffed any of the live classes, and just nerfed the Marauder, then the Marauder would still probably be really good (since they were very strong on live). However, the combination of nerfing this class while subsequently heavily buffing many other classes has done a double whammy of power creep here, where classes are now heavily surpassing the Mara in terms of overall power and usefulness.

Double nerfing Thunderous Blows (which the wounds debuff if you don't remember, was already a nerf versus the original version), by both moving it to be a 13 point ability and gutting the value was a tremendous nerf to this class, and not just savagery spec, and is a much bigger nerf than I think most people realize. On live, you could pick up TB in a variety of specs, and now, you can only pick it up in exactly 1 spec, and it's barely worth it because of the nerf it had. It makes absolutely no sense as a 13 point ability, and never in the history of the Marauder did the Mythic devs ever think that putting the "stanceless" mastery ability as the 13 point ability was a good idea, this is because it isn't. The purpose of the stanceless abilities in the marauder mastery trees is to be able to grab them in your "off spec", and if you put them 13 points up it defeats their entire purpose for even existing. So realistically, what the nerf did was basically remove the wounds debuff from the class except in some specific situations, whereas before most specs would be grabbing it. It was replaced with an ability that is "ok" and only works in a single spec, so therefore this change nerfed every single Marauder spec heavily and gave them basically nothing in return. This is roughly the equivalent of doing something like taking Pounce from the WL, and sticking it up 13 points into the Guardian tree, a place where nobody would ever go pick it up, and roughly equates to "a soft deletion of the ability from the game".

TLDR: Step 1: Revert the Nerfs. Step 2: Make small and targeted balance changes that are about bringing parity to Order/Destro, and don't try to change too much at once or just buff everything about the class or change every single tactic or try to swap a ton of abilities around, these are pie in the sky unrealistic expectations that the developers will not take seriously.
This might be the best post on this forum to date. Period.

puzzolamistica
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Posts: 49

Re: Your thoughts about Mara

Post#48 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:17 am

mara is probably the strongest all arround dps on this game.
If u feel weak playing it try to play an order dps an then talk again :D.
u have 100% armor pen wile u play st and aoe, best armor debuff on the game, 50% more crit damage, 20% more crit, aoe kd (no one has it), aoe interrupt, pull, mutation bonus.
What u want more? to be God?

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wachlarz
Posts: 798

Re: Your thoughts about Mara

Post#49 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:28 am

puzzolamistica wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:17 am mara is probably the strongest all arround dps on this game.
If u feel weak playing it try to play an order dps an then talk again :D.
u have 100% armor pen wile u play st and aoe, best armor debuff on the game, 50% more crit damage, 20% more crit, aoe kd (no one has it), aoe interrupt, pull, mutation bonus.
What u want more? to be God?
Meaby U should make maruder first. Good start. Then write about mara.

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Gatto
Posts: 78

Re: Your thoughts about Mara

Post#50 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:32 am

puzzolamistica wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:17 am mara is probably the strongest all arround dps on this game.
If u feel weak playing it try to play an order dps an then talk again :D.
u have 100% armor pen wile u play st and aoe, best armor debuff on the game, 50% more crit damage, 20% more crit, aoe kd (no one has it), aoe interrupt, pull, mutation bonus.
What u want more? to be God?
mara dont have 100% armor pen, monstro proc make the mara immune to enemy armor penetration from weapon skill, but still susceptible to flat ignore % armor bonus.
armor debuff is the same of white lion, literally same ability.
wl can slot 50% crit damage aswell tied to pet but no need to spec for it via mastery.
20% more crit tact is shared with shadow warrior.
aoe interrupt same for wl.
mutation bonus is quite similar to WL self buffs.
on the ther hand u have to stance dance to be effective while wl dont and SW basically neither since they have everything minus 1 dot in they assault stance.
sdk.flm.

"nerf Rock, Paper is fine." -Scissors

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