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[Magus] Useless in end game content?

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Sulorie
Posts: 4792

Re: [Magus] Useless in end game content?

Post#31 » Mon May 25, 2020 1:33 pm

Starx wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 12:33 pm
Holy **** it actually does lmao, almost full sov and RR80 and im just now learning this. Based tooltips I guess haha...

This is actually pretty old news. :D It was added around the time, when their pets got their tweaks, as live pets didn't had faster dot ticks or dodge/disrupt buff. So yeah, their tooltip is wrong since a few years.

But it's not the only tooltip, as shaman resist debuff isn't 40ft range either but the same as AM one. :) I recently told a guild mate about the bigger range, as he didn't spec for it since a long time, just because of the low range.
Dying is no option.

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Neutra
Posts: 5

Re: [Magus] Useless in end game content?

Post#32 » Mon May 25, 2020 1:47 pm

I would actually nerf the pet stacks down to 4x5% or maybe 5x5%. Like it was back on live, if i remember correctly. It is just to difficult to balance the overall dmg if there are dmg buffs this high.

Just a few examples.

Increase the HP of our pets (magus/engi) and make them more durable. After all they are stationary. Give us a more active role with more active skills for example. Or make the pet skills hit a lot harder and increase the cooldown and disable the auto use function on default.

Lower the cast time of summoning them baseline to 1sec or atleast make it useable on the move. This would help in build diversity because in most builds you woulnd't have to absolutely use the tactic for it. The tactic would still be useful but just not that mandatory anymore.

Magus and Engi shouldn't have to compete against BW/SORC on the dmg spectrum. They should have instead more useful utility skills. Why has the BW a heal debuff? Give it to the engi just for example.

Stop circle-jerking about how bad engi/magus is (they are not, 6vs6 is not the only game format) and instead sit together with your fellow magi/engi players and gather ideas how to make the class better and propose a well thought out balance suggestion to the devs.

Take my opinion with a grain of salt, i just came back to Warhammer. But i had a BiS geared RR100 ST Magus and a RR8X ST Engi back on live.

Starx
Posts: 279

Re: [Magus] Useless in end game content?

Post#33 » Mon May 25, 2020 2:17 pm

It's not just 6v6, and all RDPS suck for 6v6... it's just that of all the RDPS Magus/Engineer are the worst because all you have to do to relieve a large amount of pressure if sit on them and kill their pet.

Engineer/Magus are basically pariahs for city as well. I never get invited to any pug on my magus if my guild or alliance doesn't have a WB im forced to start a 12 man myself or solo que.

I agree magus/engineer shouldn't do as much as BW/Sorc but as of right now they aren't really bringing much in terms of utility or at least utility that is immediately useful and ppl really want.

As far as ideas for making the class better and communicating with devs... the balance forum is dead and devs have stated there is no plans in the near future to adjust engineer/magus so all we really can do is circle jerk. We can of course strive to get better, but good magus/engineer players have spots in warbands already, and ya their guilds would rather thme be on something else but they play it well enough to not be a total burden. What really matters is the average/new player on the class and the ability to slot into groups.

I'd have absolutely ZERO trouble getting into any random wb i wanted if i was on a sorc, with the gear and RR/people who know me in discord etc... but its like pulling teeth on magus and thats not for no good reason either.

videogamer
Posts: 13

Re: [Magus] Useless in end game content?

Post#34 » Mon May 25, 2020 2:21 pm

Personally I found that before RR75 it's very rare anyone will take you to a warband, I get groups maybe like 50% of the time past RR75 so far. I've had the best success with Rift spec and Blue Horror, not actually using Rift ofcourse because it's useless (atleast in pugs), hovering outside of the main clump Lash spamming with a Glean Magic/Infernal Wave thrown in every now and again whilst trying to CC healer stack. Against anyone good they will simply just assist train you first at which point you can't really do much besides kite and blow up your own pet (seeing as it's going to die anyway) to stun them. If they don't attack then you'll do a lot of damage but it will just be mostly fluff damage that doesn't translate to kills. It's hard to get into guilds that do actual warbands because most only want 1 Magus in their warbands, if at all, playing Havoc solo never gets old so I still enjoy it though, but I'm leveling something else to play cities with atm.

Here are the biggest problems with Magus:

  • Rift itself is largely useless because you'll either have Choppas doing Choppa things, Black Orcs doing Black Orc things, or you have to have a group that entirely aware of the fact that a Magus exists and intentionally not use their abilities so that it's presence can be somewhat justified, or you can simply take the much easier route and just not invite them whilst continuing to do Choppa/Black Orc things. Even if you get the ideal circumstance in which to use Rift you'll often find that it simply just pulls in tanks instead of anything actually useful so at that point I've found it's mostly ends up being used as a CC ability on healers if you somehow are able to make it past the frontline unscathed (which you won't against anyone not Pepega) but at that point you're better off just having a Choppa. For an ability at the top of the tree and one of the only reasons to take a Magus it's quite underwhelming. Even in Forts for a Magus to pull anyone he needs line of sight which means that healers can also get line of sight to resurrect them, so at most it functions as a morale reset for a couple of players every 30 seconds in exactly THE best place to use it in the entire game.
  • Magus Damage Profile. Outside of single target Magus has no real burst to speak of, Changing and Daemonology specs deal sustained AOE damage which simply just ends up being fluff that is automatically cleaned up by Warrior Priests pressing literally any button on their keyboard, even their M2 is damage over time. Their DoTs are instantly dispelled with entire group wide dispels every few seconds. Without any sort of burst they are unable to create killing blows despite topping damage regularly. Functions great in a funnel but for anywhere else in the game it's useless and Magus lose all their damage moving around which you'll do a lot of in a city, especially on attack.
  • Damage and utility tied to a pet that explodes the moment you look at it. The pet is a ridiculous 40% of your damage and it isn't even just that. It also functions as utility ability in that the Pink Horror provides a mandatory elemental resistance debuff that has a significant impact on your Havoc spells as well as 20% range, the Flamer gives more DoT damage/movement, and the Blue Horror gives cleave radius/disrupt. So much of a Magus' power is tied up in it's pet that it's completely neutered when unable to utilize it, even with a Loner tactic you'd still lose all that utility/survivability. In a city your pet ends up essentially functioning as an ability you spam on cooldown to get a 5 second 10% damage buff before it dies to a single aoe fluff spell. Daemonology especially needs the pet in order to not be useless however that means you have to drag this sack of **** into melee where it evaporates at which point you're a clothie in melee, guess what happens next.
  • Melee meta. Melee trains just **** on Magus completely the moment they spot that disk they will hold W towards you and as soon as they're ontop of you half your damage becomes deleted from your pet dieing immediately on cooldown. By simply attacking the Magus, not even killing them, they effectively neutralize the Magus' ability to contribute anything meaningful. If this were a ranged meta Magus would fair significantly better because they're able to have extremely high dodge/disrupt with Blue Horror.
  • No reason to stack them and having more than 1 Magus in your group is detrimental. You'd want 1 to spirit resistance debuff for Sorcs, that's it. The only other utility they provide is an AP pump that is once again tied to an instantly dying pet, and Daemonic Withering which just isn't good enough to justify a spot for them.
Some potential improvements could be:
  • Make the pet live: Don't care how it's done, make it immune to AOE, let group heals heal it, or make Daemonic Pact give 500 toughness to the demon or something, or make Infernal Flesh not a laughable amount of wounds for a pet for entire tactic slot.
  • Unearthly Shriek: Make the taunts reduce the damage of the target, make the Magus deal more damage and not just the pet to taunted targets.
  • Merge Warped Flesh (25% chance on receiving damage to gain an absorb shield) and Backlash (25% thorns chance). Something Magus can take to deal with being the primary assist target 100% of the time.
  • Chaotic Attunement: Just make it baseline, there is no choice involved because everyone has to take it.
  • Warpfire: Don't really need to explain this one. It's a level 40 stationary channeled ability and it does less damage than any instant cast ability in your arsenal.
  • Seed of Chaos: Make it provide dispel protection or make it explode for 5 times to amount of damage if dispelled. It does so little damage it's never used.
  • Make Daemonic Armor a Daemonology ability and thus affected by Daemonology mastery levels.
  • Withered Soul: Make it reset the cooldown if an enemy dies afflicted by it.
  • Rolling Winds: Should deal 400 damage a tick instead of 300 given it's a damage over time morale that can be avoided if the player moves out of the group and can be deleted if the target dies.
At the end of the day you can't improve the Magus too much without then having to buff Engineers and proceeding to break the game so I doubt anything substantial is ever going to come of the class but maybe it's just enough to make them not useless in warbands.

Starx
Posts: 279

Re: [Magus] Useless in end game content?

Post#35 » Mon May 25, 2020 2:29 pm

videogamer wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 2:21 pm
Spoiler:
Personally I found that before RR75 it's very rare anyone will take you to a warband, I get groups maybe like 50% of the time past RR75 so far. I've had the best success with Rift spec and Blue Horror, not actually using Rift ofcourse because it's useless (atleast in pugs), hovering outside of the main clump Lash spamming with a Glean Magic/Infernal Wave thrown in every now and again whilst trying to CC healer stack. Against anyone good they will simply just assist train you first at which point you can't really do much besides kite and blow up your own pet (seeing as it's going to die anyway) to stun them. If they don't attack then you'll do a lot of damage but it will just be mostly fluff damage that doesn't translate to kills. It's hard to get into guilds that do actual warbands because most only want 1 Magus in their warbands, if at all, playing Havoc solo never gets old so I still enjoy it though, but I'm leveling something else to play cities with atm.

Here are the biggest problems with Magus:

  • Rift itself is largely useless because you'll either have Choppas doing Choppa things, Black Orcs doing Black Orc things, or you have to have a group that entirely aware of the fact that a Magus exists and intentionally not use their abilities so that it's presence can be somewhat justified, or you can simply take the much easier route and just not invite them whilst continuing to do Choppa/Black Orc things. Even if you get the ideal circumstance in which to use Rift you'll often find that it simply just pulls in tanks instead of anything actually useful so at that point I've found it's mostly ends up being used as a CC ability on healers if you somehow are able to make it past the frontline unscathed (which you won't against anyone not Pepega) but at that point you're better off just having a Choppa. For an ability at the top of the tree and one of the only reasons to take a Magus it's quite underwhelming. Even in Forts for a Magus to pull anyone he needs line of sight which means that healers can also get line of sight to resurrect them, so at most it functions as a morale reset for a couple of players every 30 seconds in exactly THE best place to use it in the entire game.
  • Magus Damage Profile. Outside of single target Magus has no real burst to speak of, Changing and Daemonology specs deal sustained AOE damage which simply just ends up being fluff that is automatically cleaned up by Warrior Priests pressing literally any button on their keyboard, even their M2 is damage over time. Their DoTs are instantly dispelled with entire group wide dispels every few seconds. Without any sort of burst they are unable to create killing blows despite topping damage regularly. Functions great in a funnel but for anywhere else in the game it's useless and Magus lose all their damage moving around which you'll do a lot of in a city, especially on attack.
  • Damage and utility tied to a pet that explodes the moment you look at it. The pet is a ridiculous 40% of your damage and it isn't even just that. It also functions as utility ability in that the Pink Horror provides a mandatory elemental resistance debuff that has a significant impact on your Havoc spells as well as 20% range, the Flamer gives more DoT damage/movement, and the Blue Horror gives cleave radius/disrupt. So much of a Magus' power is tied up in it's pet that it's completely neutered when unable to utilize it, even with a Loner tactic you'd still lose all that utility/survivability. In a city your pet ends up essentially functioning as an ability you spam on cooldown to get a 5 second 10% damage buff before it dies to a single aoe fluff spell. Daemonology especially needs the pet in order to not be useless however that means you have to drag this sack of **** into melee where it evaporates at which point you're a clothie in melee, guess what happens next.
  • Melee meta. Melee trains just **** on Magus completely the moment they spot that disk they will hold W towards you and as soon as they're ontop of you half your damage becomes deleted from your pet dieing immediately on cooldown. By simply attacking the Magus, not even killing them, they effectively neutralize the Magus' ability to contribute anything meaningful. If this were a ranged meta Magus would fair significantly better because they're able to have extremely high dodge/disrupt with Blue Horror.
  • No reason to stack them and having more than 1 Magus in your group is detrimental. You'd want 1 to spirit resistance debuff for Sorcs, that's it. The only other utility they provide is an AP pump that is once again tied to an instantly dying pet, and Daemonic Withering which just isn't good enough to justify a spot for them.
Some potential improvements could be:
  • Make the pet live: Don't care how it's done, make it immune to AOE, let group heals heal it, or make Daemonic Pact give 500 toughness to the demon or something, or make Infernal Flesh not a laughable amount of wounds for a pet for entire tactic slot.
  • Unearthly Shriek: Make the taunts reduce the damage of the target, make the Magus deal more damage and not just the pet to taunted targets.
  • Merge Warped Flesh (25% chance on receiving damage to gain an absorb shield) and Backlash (25% thorns chance). Something Magus can take to deal with being the primary assist target 100% of the time.
  • Chaotic Attunement: Just make it baseline, there is no choice involved because everyone has to take it.
  • Warpfire: Don't really need to explain this one. It's a level 40 stationary channeled ability and it does less damage than any instant cast ability in your arsenal.
  • Seed of Chaos: Make it provide dispel protection or make it explode for 5 times to amount of damage if dispelled. It does so little damage it's never used.
  • Make Daemonic Armor a Daemonology ability and thus affected by Daemonology mastery levels.
  • Withered Soul: Make it reset the cooldown if an enemy dies afflicted by it.
  • Rolling Winds: Should deal 400 damage a tick instead of 300 given it's a damage over time morale that can be avoided if the player moves out of the group and can be deleted if the target dies.
At the end of the day you can't improve the Magus too much without then having to buff Engineers and proceeding to break the game so I doubt anything substantial is ever going to come of the class but maybe it's just enough to make them not useless in warbands.


Rift sucks because it targets the closest 6 ppl without immunities, typically how you play a magus is just inside the deathball with the choppas etc... so most of the time your just pulling stuff in that... IS ALREADY INSIDE YOUR DEATHBALL RANGE so it literally does ****. This lead to ppl doing absolutely meme tier stuff like "Hey im gonna root everyone in 30ft so they get immunity and I actually pull valuable targets in which is just... big old yikes.

About tankiness, honestly magus is really strong I think. W/ Aegis up I have 10k hp in a a pretty much full glass sov setup... it's hard to die unless your group is terrible tbh.

You are right, seed of chaos and warpfire are inexcusably bad abilities that need to be buffed and the M2 is a problem. As far as the pet I still think the damage buff needs to be removed and rolled into the class or at least a 20/30% and keep a 10-20% buff on pet...

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blasras
Posts: 15

Re: [Magus] Useless in end game content?

Post#36 » Mon May 25, 2020 3:51 pm

Thanks everyone for your feedback so far, your comments gave me a clearer perspective and solidified my worries, so I'll probably have to ditch the disk murderer dream. I'm stuck on destro because of friends, so BW is not an option, and as someone already mentioned playing sorc is basically playing a gimped BW? at this point it seems I would have to make my own guild just to be able to raid cities as a Magus, and that's something I'm far from being able to pull. Anyways I hope I can find my way among the hurdles and someday face you on the big leagues.

Starx
Posts: 279

Re: [Magus] Useless in end game content?

Post#37 » Mon May 25, 2020 4:02 pm

blasras wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 3:51 pm
Thanks everyone for your feedback so far, your comments gave me a clearer perspective and solidified my worries, so I'll probably have to ditch the disk murderer dream. I'm stuck on destro because of friends, so BW is not an option, and as someone already mentioned playing sorc is basically playing a gimped BW? at this point it seems I would have to make my own guild just to be able to raid cities as a Magus, and that's something I'm far from being able to pull. Anyways I hope I can find my way among the hurdles and someday face you on the big leagues.
If you were slotting in as a magus with your friends just fine theres no reason you cant just reroll sorc and be fine. Mara/choppa/MSH are all good as well.

Sulorie
Posts: 4792

Re: [Magus] Useless in end game content?

Post#38 » Mon May 25, 2020 6:14 pm

blasras wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 3:51 pm
at this point it seems I would have to make my own guild just to be able to raid cities as a Magus,...
Where do you get that thought from, that you need a guild to raid city on magus? You need no warband meta classes or specs to play city siege. There are plenty pug instances every time. You only need a bit luck with your enemies.
Only when mass rvr is your choice, then you might have to reconsider your pick.
Dying is no option.

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Zxul
Posts: 731

Re: [Magus] Useless in end game content?

Post#39 » Mon May 25, 2020 10:11 pm

The hidden bonus of magus which all are missing is their affect on wp's healing. If magus spams aoe dots wps usually like to aoe cleanse on CD, meaning waisting 1 GCD every 5 sec on removing Gleam which in reality barely does any dmg lot of time. Which results in a noticeable % healing debuff practically.
"Can we play with him, master? He seems so unhappy. Let us help him smile. Please? Or at least let us carve one on his face when he stops screaming."

— Azeila, Alluress of Slaanesh

gman4gov
Posts: 1

Re: [Magus] Useless in end game content?

Post#40 » Thu May 28, 2020 6:56 am

I don't think Devs realized how high up the rift ability is on the tree. This has always been a problem and that ability should have been granted once a player hit lvl 40 or the ability should be lower on the Magus spec tree. No sense of spec'g that high to die every time you rift.
Bolt of Change is defendable, unlike what it advertises, and Firestorm doesn't seem to put out the necessary damage in cities.
Come'on, a utility class has to do the necessary things to compete, otherwise, you'll continue to see less players on this toon and the reasoning is sound.

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