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{Black Guard} Why its a bad 2 handed tank compared to other tanks

Black Guard, Sorceress, Witch Elf, Disciple of Khaine

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Vegetaplays
Posts: 65

{Black Guard} Why its a bad 2 handed tank compared to other tanks

Post#1 » Sun Dec 19, 2021 3:07 am

Before I get the "what about group play?" Comments, Black guard is absolutely fine in group play, but that's not what this post is about, This is about comparing Blackguard to other Destro tanks, and why it falls flat. First, lets start with the good.

The Good - Tactics
Rugged is standard across all tanks, so I won't talk about it much.
Image - Soul killer - Mind killer will now reduce all healing cast by the target by 50%.
This is one of the few very good tactics for blackguard, and it is a good tactic to have.

Image - Anger drives me - Your chance to parry is increased by 3% by every 10 hate you have.
This can be an OP tactic if utilized correctly, but there are some things you have to sacrifice if you want the tactic. The disrupt tactic which is basically the same is also not bad, but I don't quite see much use for it.
And thats about the only 2 Good tactics it can have, The rest are either okay, or not worth having equipped.
The Decent tactics -
Image - Whenever you critically hit a target their Wounds are reduced by 75 for 10 seconds. In addition, whenever you strike a target with Murderous Wrath or Pitiless Strike your auto attack speed is increased by 50% for 10 seconds.
This can be a good tactic, but since its so high in path of malice, theres better things to spend your points on.
Image - Hateful Strike will now increase your Toughness for 20 seconds based on your Hate. With 30 Hate: Increase Toughness by 15%.
With 60 Hate: Increase Toughness by 30%. With 90 Hate: Increase Toughness by 45%.
Its not bad, but this tactic doesn't quite feel worth the point spending on.
Image - Bathing in blood - Any time you kill an enemy, you will regain 471 health over 9 seconds. Solid filler, all i can say about it.
Thats it. Now we get on to the bad tactics, im only gonna mention 1 or 2, but whatever i dont mention will probably fall under the category.
Bad tactics -
Image - Filled with Fury - Increase chance to critically hit by 15% for 5 seconds whenever you expend Hate to attack.

Why is it bad when its pretty much mandatory? First of all its not 100% uptime compared to other tank crit tactics, hate doesn't have to be spent 100% of the time, so its only up for so long. Compared to chosens -
Oppressing blows, Increases your chance to critically hit by 15% when you are wielding a great weapon and causes Relentless to inflict Spirit damage. Chosens spirit damage is why its damage can be so high, and you have OP dots like Touch of palsy or seeping wound. Or compared to Black orcs Stab you gooder and Gork smash, puts blackguard in a bad spot.

Good abilites.
Instead of just putting pictures of all the abilites and tooltips, to save space im just gonna put a list of the good abilities that BG has. Driven by Hate, Enraged Beating, Malignant Strike Crimson Death, Horrific wound, Monstrous rending, Pitiless strike, Crush the weak, Exile, Feeding on weakness Furious Howl, Brutal Smash, Shield of rage, Mind killer
There are all quite good abilites that the class has, But with the lack of good tactics and the difficulty of making sure all of your required stats are where they need to be, makes getting high numbers from these, difficult. Even at soverign level, BG should still be outdamage by a 2handed chosen and BO. why? Chosen has spirit damage, and BO can crit and deal more then BG. Chosen has moves like Suppression, Withering blow, Cleave, Tooth of tzeentch, its STR aura, Bane shield, Touch of palsy, its Dreadful agony aura, and its spirit debuff aura, Blast wave, Ravage, Seeping wound. And BO has moves like, Da Biggest, Wot armor?, Skull thumper, Arm breaker, Tree hit combo, You wot???, Shut yer face, Big swing, follow me lead, Savin' me hide, Down ya go

Going back to the tactics, and what would be Best in slot for Chosen and BO, You see why BG loses. Chosen - Warped flesh - Any time you are attacked, there is a 25% chance that you will absorb up to 375 damage.This effect will not trigger more than once every 3 seconds. Rugged needs no explanation, Opressing blows was already explained, Daemonclaw - Whenever you parry an attack, your Strength and Toughness will be increased by 100 for 10 seconds. This effect will not refresh itself.[/b] You can swapped out warped flesh with other tactics like your reduce to be crit hit tactic, or AP regen tactic. BO - Im Da Biggest - increases wounds by 160, Rugged needs no explantion , Stab you gooder needs no explanation, Gork smash needs no explanaiton.[/b] With BO, those are some i picked that seem very good, but theres others like Gud at big choppin - When you are wielding a great weapon, your chance to parry is increased by 5% and all damage you deal is increased by 10%. You got nuffin' - When War Bellows trigger they will now restore 270 health over 10 seconds to your group members within 100 feet of you.

Theres some abilities with BG that just feel like a waste of AP/hate, Murderous wrath is a fine ability, but it just kinda feels like a waste to use, the base damage is too low and pitiless strike ends up doing more damage and costs no AP, Crushing anger feels like a waste of hate, as there are better abilities to use, but to be fair, BG gets hate while hitting and getting hit, while IB doesn't. Speaking of IB, its time to compare it to the mirror class. IB has things like Dwarven riposte - Whenever you Parry you also build 30 Grudge. This effect will not trigger more than once every 3 seconds. Sweet revenge - Increases your chance to critically hit by 15% if you are above 50 Grudge. (Still not great compared to something like Chosen or BO, its kind of on the same level as BG) Ancestral inheritance - Increases your Armor by 660. Stoutness of stone - You recover from Stuns and Knockdowns 50% quicker. You will still gain immunity based on the original duration. Greataxe mastery - When you are wielding a great weapon, your chance to parry is increased by 5% and all damage you deal is increased by 10%.

And when we get into IB abilities like Ancestors Fury - The memory of your ancestors bolsters your resolve, increasing Strength by 75 and chance to critically hit by 10% for 10 seconds. Your Oath Friend is affected as well if they're within 50 feet of you. Cave in - You smash into your enemy, knocking them down for 3 seconds. At 25 Grudges: Deals 170 damage over 5 seconds. At 50 Grudges: Deals 295 damage over 5 seconds. At 75 Grudges: Deals 420 damage over 5 seconds. At 100 Grudges: Deals 545 damage over 5 seconds. Grudge born fury - You constantly pummel your target with brutal attacks, dealing up to 520 damage over 3 seconds. Your attacks will end if you lose your concentration. At 25 Grudge: Chance to Critically hit is increased by 5%. At 50 Grudge: Chance to Critically hit is increased by 10%. At 75 Grudge: Chance to Critically hit is increased by 15%. At 100 Grudge: Chance to Critically hit is increased by 20%. - Rune Etched Axe - You whirl your axe around, dealing 100 damage to enemies 25 feet in front of you.
At 25 Grudges: Ignores 25% of the victim's armor. At 50 Grudges: Ignores 50% of the victim's armor. At 75 Grudges: Ignores 75% of the victim's armor. At 100 Grudges: Ignores 100% of the victim's armor. Punishing blow - You maim your target's legs, dealing 94 damage causing them to suffer 75 damage for every half second they are moving. Watch an' learn - Increases your Weapon Skill by 75 for 10 seconds. Each time you hit an enemy, your Oath Friend will gain 25 Action Points as long as they're within 50 feet of you. Guarded attack - You deal 137 damage to your target and prepare yourself for their attacks, increasing your armor by 618 for 20 seconds. Your Oath Friend's armor will also be increased if they are within 50 feet. Stubborn as stone - You set your mind to the task at hand and focus on what must be done, increasing your Corporeal resistance by 236 for 20 seconds. Each time you're hit by magical damage while this effect is active, your autoattack speed will be increased by 50% for 20 seconds. Also increases your Oath Friend's resistance if they are within 50 feet.


This is why KOTBS (least hard hitting 2h tank) > BG > IB > BO/Chosen > SM (hardest hitting 2h tank).

By the way, full offense bg with focused offensive still gets out damaged by a chosen that is regen solo spec
Image

I guess, at the end of the day i'm saying is Give BG a bit more utility or something, Give it more self buff like IB has, or increase the damage of abilities. Make BG be like a true mirror to IB, not a washed down version. again, this is not about BG in group play, this is about it compared to other destro tanks. and yes, if you want damage go and play DPS, i get it.
Majorzero RR83 Chosen

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Evilspinnre
Posts: 113

Re: {Black Guard} Why its a bad 2 handed tank compared to other tanks

Post#2 » Sun Dec 19, 2021 3:42 am

Vegetaplays wrote:
Sun Dec 19, 2021 3:07 am
The Good - Tactics
Rugged is standard across all tanks, so I won't talk about it much.
You lost me at this.

Your buffs last 20s, IB 10s. You have the longest range punt in the game, and have an undefendable AoE slow. I will take a 2h BG over 2h BO every time, and would rather one over an IB in ranked/small scale.
Evilspinnre - Nightmare/Daydream
80+ AM, WL, WP, BW, SL, SM
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space44
Posts: 382

Re: {Black Guard} Why its a bad 2 handed tank compared to other tanks

Post#3 » Sun Dec 19, 2021 3:51 am

wtf is rugged and why does my chosen not need it lol
Chosen: Roten Plaguelord rr85 | Knight of the Blazing Sun: Lyntyz Jesterknight rr63 | Warrior Priest: Ulfrric Greywolf rr51

Cyrylius
Posts: 23

Re: {Black Guard} Why its a bad 2 handed tank compared to other tanks

Post#4 » Sun Dec 19, 2021 3:56 am

I agree with the op, 2h BG needs a buff.

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Sinisterror
Posts: 422

Re: {Black Guard} Why its a bad 2 handed tank compared to other tanks

Post#5 » Sun Dec 19, 2021 4:07 am

Ehh? Hateful Strike is so goddamn good, my 40rank rr24 BG with full ruin has 1040 toughness without even trying, no toughness gear or jewelries just self toughness buff and almost soft cap toughness with 1 skill lasts 20 seconds and can pick it for every spec because so low in a tree.
"To clarify, me asking to developers to go test their own changes is not sign of toxicity or anger, but a sign of hope that the people punching in the numbers remain aware of potential consequences and test their own changes"-Teefz

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Kaeldrick
Posts: 68

Re: {Black Guard} Why its a bad 2 handed tank compared to other tanks

Post#6 » Sun Dec 19, 2021 7:10 am

Vegetaplays wrote:
Sun Dec 19, 2021 3:07 am
Before I get the "what about group play?" Comments, Black guard is absolutely fine in group play, but that's not what this post is about, This is about comparing Blackguard to other Destro tanks, and why it falls flat. First, lets start with the good.
I've stopped after reading this. Thanks for your time :)

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