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[Blackguard] 2H only?

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Vandoles
Posts: 249

Re: [Blackguard] 2H only?

Post#21 » Sat Oct 15, 2016 9:11 am

TenTonHammer wrote:
EasymodeX wrote:1. 2h BG is doable if you are playing for a specific role. If you go high toughness then the armor drop of FO isn't very relevant. You lose significant damage from not stacking STR, but so it goes. The 2h inherent DPS will balance most of that.

2. The main reason why people criticize 2h BG is because the shield-specific CC is so uniquely useful for the BG when defending their group. 2h BG is not a good spec for sitting in your own backline. SnB is superior at this role for multiple reasons.

3. The secondary reason that 2h BGs get criticized is that people try to justify the 2h setup with "DPS!11!11", so they end up stacking full DPS stats and they get melted. Poor results from poor decision-making.


The general result of going with a 2h toughness build is as follows:

1. Enemies will think you're a squishie 2h derp, so they will attack you and quickly realize they're doing jack **** for damage. Meanwhile, your team is untouched.

2. After they switch targets to something that they deal more than double-digit damage to, they will now ignore you, despite the fact that you are dropping AOE slows on them, and then humping the legs of their healers and dropping infinite heal debuffs along with your moderate damage.

The result here is that you are effectively very similar to any CC/support-oriented BG, except you are on their backline, not defending your own backline. Your moderate damage and 2h loadout draws enemy attention and aggro.

Successful play in this role will result in the enemy healers and glass cannons having no AP and being generally annoyed as hell that you're still in their faces. They will rage at their teammates asking them why they don't just kill the 2h "loldps wannabe" tank that is stopping them from pressing buttons. Etc.

Focused offensive is the most garbage tactic in the entire game , a paltry 15% dmg inc is never worth a 30%+ loss of armor irregardless of how much tough you stack

Secondly; no the reason that people criticize 2H BG is becuase all you get for the massive loss in survieablity and untilty by going 2H insted of SnB is crimson death, everything else you listed an SnB dps specd BG can do as well and better. Further more if you are going for Wave of Scorn AoE slow and soul kill out going HD then what is the point of going 2H bg? If you dont get crimson death their is abolutly no reason to go 2H bg still and of all the debuffs BG has, mara and other classes have better ones

Secodly if i wanted a tank runnign around spammin AoE slows and stuff then why do i want BG? Why not a Blorc with big brawlin whose AoE slow has a much lower cool down and is buried by the str debuff so it cannont be clensesed as easily and has higher dps output than BG


Thirdly it seems you face bad players who cant punt away/cc guard tanks and whom also cannot kite or are more than happy to allow their healers to get chased even then all the time you spend trying to chase a healer is more time for your party to get beat on b/c they have 1 less guard in range
Why do you want a BG?

The fact that the majority of players are here for fun and that's probably the best advantage of War over some other MMOs - the fact that the consistency of zerging and orvr means anything is viable, because not everything is a twinkfest, ala arenas where you can only play the very best or get stomped.

Yes, 2H BG is useless for your 6-man teamspeak roaming party.

No, 2H BG isn't useless for a bit of fun in rvr or pug scenarios.

That said, it's been ages since I played my 2H BG on live and I've forgotten almost everything, so I hope more people reply to this with some good info.

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Bluntski
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Re: [Blackguard] 2H only?

Post#22 » Wed Nov 16, 2016 5:26 pm

2h BG can be very painful in T2/3, especially in SCs. I was one of the top 2h BGs from Gorfang back in the day so don't let anyone tell you it isn't viable. You are an absolute menace to any class that relies on AP, especially if they are a healer. As long as you have a good group and heals 2h is good stuff.
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Tesq
Posts: 5704

Re: [Blackguard] 2H only?

Post#23 » Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:54 am

BG in general have survability problems both in s+b/2h is likely the worst durable tank right know, every of his def tools is inefficent(i have another proposal on the way to put bg on par with IB) while the utility access in 2h skyrocket after last changes, so currently is totally worth loose a situational 5 sec KD for best aoe to apply wounds debuff in game and crit debuff, 2h make all of this easier to land due to inbuilt block/parry ingore great weapons have.

@op linebreaker are usually s+b tank, because they can survive being the first to enter the brawl in mass fights, 2h require a more smart positioning and strike from sides. As line breaker generally both chosen/BG have a speed tactic(proc on disrupt) for help them in that role. Be cautious with the disrupt tactic, single target bw tend to use a tactic which ignore the disrupt.
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tazdingo
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Re: [Blackguard] 2H only?

Post#24 » Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:12 pm

Tesq wrote:BG in general have survability problems both in s+b/2h is likely the worst durable tank right know
what
surely full def BG is the very toughest

45% tough buff + 30% parry/disrupt (both if you leave soul killer) + elite training parry + shield of rage + channel block + action self heal & another tough buff + channel self heal + self armour buff & 45% crit protection + enemy crit reduction + self will buff

sure it's based on hate, a perfect rotation and maybe the stars aligning, and sure you're left as little more than a not dyin machine on legs, but for pure theorycraft "i wanna tank entire warbands solo", BG has gotta be the way to go

terrifying foe alone is bizarrely good

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Thamor
Posts: 113

Re: [Blackguard] 2H only?

Post#25 » Mon Jan 16, 2017 2:54 am

tazdingo wrote:
Tesq wrote:BG in general have survability problems both in s+b/2h is likely the worst durable tank right know
what
surely full def BG is the very toughest

45% tough buff + 30% parry/disrupt (both if you leave soul killer) + elite training parry + shield of rage + channel block + action self heal & another tough buff + channel self heal + self armour buff & 45% crit protection + enemy crit reduction + self will buff

sure it's based on hate, a perfect rotation and maybe the stars aligning, and sure you're left as little more than a not dyin machine on legs, but for pure theorycraft "i wanna tank entire warbands solo", BG has gotta be the way to go

terrifying foe alone is bizarrely good
I agree totally on your points. Have no idea what is the talk that BG have survivability problems, defensive mode BG get full hate very easily by using dark protector on targets being focused, with full hate get all the crazy good def bonuses that was already posted.

Mostly think players here whine that they don't get both crazy good offensive tactic with good abilities for defense too, can't have it both ways always. If you use your mastery pts for defense you can always use renown pts for offense too to balance things out. Or just go unkillable selfheal 2 legged tank.
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blaqwar
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Re: [Blackguard] 2H only?

Post#26 » Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:38 am

I think you two are somewhat missing the point here, the general (sensible) complaint isn't that the BG cannot be tanky (or that they can't do damage), it's that to achieve a decent amount of effective durability the BG has to give up too many tools/damage and ends up being far inferior to other tanks.

Sure you can have a BG that's just as tanky as other tanks (or even tankier) but you'll bring almost nothing to the group outside the core tank abilities, thus being inferior. The game has no last man standing mechanics so insane durability by itself means nothing.

Just wanted to pointed that out. :)

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TenTonHammer
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Re: [Blackguard] 2H only?

Post#27 » Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:54 am

Thamor wrote: can't have it both ways always. If you use your mastery pts for defense you can always use renown pts for offense too to balance things out. Or just go unkillable selfheal 2 legged tank.

Yet Chosen and BO can have access to both defensive and offensive stuff and have access to more avoidance stuff, more utlity and still have nice dmg espically the latter tank
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Thamor
Posts: 113

Re: [Blackguard] 2H only?

Post#28 » Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:54 am

TenTonHammer wrote:
Thamor wrote: can't have it both ways always. If you use your mastery pts for defense you can always use renown pts for offense too to balance things out. Or just go unkillable selfheal 2 legged tank.

Yet Chosen and BO can have access to both defensive and offensive stuff and have access to more avoidance stuff, more utlity and still have nice dmg espically the latter tank
What I see BG if you don't go yolo full dps 2h mode. Is that you are main guard for choppa/we/marauder healer killer tank. There is almost nothing else that you can bring to the table as everyone here say, you are the best mdps guard/help tank for them. Ofc you can be alot of help for backline too, but there is nothing else in your skillset that the others can't do as well. Single target KD/KB don't help much when 1 target is being swarmed by 5+ melee train. But where that single target KD excel is killing squishy enemy backline troops or knocking their single guard tank away for that burst moment ^^. But these are just what I see everyone play and experience it alot differently. Still see BG being nice tank for mdps, for magic dps you should always get that chosen/bo to help you. :)

Well I do like when playing my BG buffing my healer with that insane 300 willpower bonus.
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Tesq
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Re: [Blackguard] 2H only?

Post#29 » Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:49 am

depend, 2h buils is more hate hungry and give you access to more tools, s+b build is more ap hungry which somewhat mitigate your low def by haveing hate and so def always up, tough testing s+b you rely for all debuff component on crush the weak due always have hate capped if not at 100 at 90, it both debuff 20% of enemy offensive and healing crit chance so it's a staple -20% crit chance for everyone.

This + super punt and (even if inefficent) 5sec KD+2x ap drain+aoe snare+ willp buff on healer.

That' very reason should let you remove healing debuff because you do not have time to loose appling that while you can actualy snare + crush the weak and keep up the assist with dmg, on paper may sound overkilling but the enemy dont give you the time and kite instead 90% of times. The ap drain are not so efficent but not so bad either, tough a s+b build rely a lot on def tactic because you need to alway be in front line. I needed to spec both parry and disrupt tactic to just do my base tanking job. These are 2 slot tactic that could be just take by 1 instead and buff even dodge with benefith also to 2h bg (and you are still not covered from sw/engi..).
The toughness motivatin for the BG is vey poor i have 730 tough and i reach 1100 something but that not put me over the other tanks durability after reaching cap toughness loose most of his ppealling in reduces the dmg because every value after 1050 get cut half and regard the effort i need to put to reach this level of durability it's still bigger to what other tanks have to.
Moreover s+b need an offensive tactic to help the assist, if they go mid+right, which is total not existent (should be anti-detaunt but since you are forced to go 4 def tactic and also detaunt is not as good as Kobs runefang it's pointless spec it; the results could be the same under a detaunt and just that(so not if target is under guard) but you have no stat gain while kobs have it, which make it a better tactic).
The only good part is that BG have no real buff so it's fater and easier swap dark protector to apply 1 buff to your healer and then return to do all the other things.
The armor buff from mid path is probably the worst of all armor buff in game since the secondary eff is really bad, the value due to spec reason is only 200+ of a 660 armor pot so you just ingore the skill and use a 700/800 armor pot which is always on and not have an intervall of 10 sec. Basically s+b should use all aroudn tools only which are

crush the weak, KD, KB, 2x ap drain (the interrupt one is somewhat inefficent most of time due being used more as ap drian that interrupt)

The more evident problem are felt like
-The snare is made less good by BO be able to spam it every 4- 5 sec more or less(well same as 2h)
-using a pve skill to buff your toughness(same as 2h)
-no offensive tactic and no spot for it (from core or either mid/right mastery)
-interrupt on the soft ap drain is inefficent.
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