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Dok heal debuff vs wp one.

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Zxul
Posts: 967

Dok heal debuff vs wp one.

Post#1 » Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:39 pm

Dok heal debuff is usually assumed to be superior to wp one, after playing WE and having on demand heal debuff I'm starting to wonder if its really so.

In theory, dok with aa haste and 40% crit going vs healer with -20% to be crit (end gear vs end gear) can get on average 3 heal debuffs per 10 sec. In practice it isn't controlled when and if dok will actually get any, dok needs a high crit for it to actually go off so any sort of non glass cannon setup is off, and it costs a tactic slot. While wp one is on demand, doesn't costs tactic slot/doesn't requires maxed crit, and is easy to cover.

All in all, it does looks like in any situation except possibly specialized sc premade wp heal debuff is actually better.
"Can we play with him, master? He seems so unhappy. Let us help him smile. Please? Or at least let us carve one on his face when he stops screaming."

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Rockalypse
Database Developer
Posts: 349

Re: Dok heal debuff vs wp one.

Post#2 » Thu Oct 01, 2020 4:30 pm

While what you said stands as it is, downside of WP heal debuff is that it is 10 sec cooldown, so if your opponent parried/blocked it - you cant reapply it for next 10 seconds, neither you can apply it on more than 1 target in 10 seconds.
Over all dps dok outshines dps wp, and it is other way around in heal.

mekal
Posts: 39

Re: Dok heal debuff vs wp one.

Post#3 » Thu Oct 01, 2020 6:41 pm

Rockalypse wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 4:30 pm
While what you said stands as it is, downside of WP heal debuff is that it is 10 sec cooldown, so if your opponent parried/blocked it - you cant reapply it for next 10 seconds, neither you can apply it on more than 1 target in 10 seconds.
Over all dps dok outshines dps wp, and it is other way around in heal.
Except a wp with guilty soul will out dps a dok even more so now that devour essence was gutted

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GrandmaGary
Posts: 26

Re: Dok heal debuff vs wp one.

Post#4 » Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:44 pm

Zxul wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:39 pm

In theory, dok with aa haste and 40% crit going vs healer with -20% to be crit (end gear vs end gear) can get on average 3 heal debuffs per 10 sec.
That may be accurate if autoatatcks where the only thing that could apply the debuff. In an actual fight though it's gonna have 100% uptime on your target.

wpc56
Posts: 115

Re: Dok heal debuff vs wp one.

Post#5 » Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:16 pm

DPS Dok in your face will have 100% healing debuff up time because you will crit while hitting with increased auto-attack with duel wield.

WP healing can be parried when applying, has 10 second cooldown and can be cleansed by zealot or aoe cleansed by shaman.

There is a reason why dps Dok is viable in ranked and dps WP isn't (amongst other balance issues). You can't mitigate 100% uptime healing debuff even if order healer spec cleanse, but you certainly can as dest healers because it's applied once every 10 seconds

Dueil
Posts: 9

Re: Dok heal debuff vs wp one.

Post#6 » Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:06 pm

For DPS DoK vs DPS WP I definitely feel that DoK's debuff is better even though it requires a tactic slot. For shield DoK vs shield WP I'd say it's the opposite however, have to give up less to spec for it and also easier to apply
Dueil - 82 Shield DoK
Pesten - 74 2h BG
Illvilja - 58 Heal Shaman
Saga - 65 Shield WP
Saqa - 58 Heal AM

Zxul
Posts: 967

Re: Dok heal debuff vs wp one.

Post#7 » Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:16 pm

GrandmaGary wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 7:44 pm
Zxul wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:39 pm

In theory, dok with aa haste and 40% crit going vs healer with -20% to be crit (end gear vs end gear) can get on average 3 heal debuffs per 10 sec.
That may be accurate if autoatatcks where the only thing that could apply the debuff. In an actual fight though it's gonna have 100% uptime on your target.
Base weapon speed likely 2.4, with aa haste 2.4/1.5=1.6 speed. 10/1.6= 6.25 main hand attack per 10 sec. 6.25 *1.45 for offhand= 9 aa hits in total per 10 sec.

GCD is 1.5 sec, 10/1.5=6.67 ability hits per 10 sec.

9+6.67=15.67 total hits per 10 sec.

40% crit vs -20% to be crit= 20% actual crit. 15.67 *20%= 3 actual crits per 10 sec.

So no, in actual fight dok will get 3 heal debuffs off in 10 sec on average, try again.
wpc56 wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:16 pm
DPS Dok in your face will have 100% healing debuff up time because you will crit while hitting with increased auto-attack with duel wield.

WP healing can be parried when applying, has 10 second cooldown and can be cleansed by zealot or aoe cleansed by shaman.

There is a reason why dps Dok is viable in ranked and dps WP isn't (amongst other balance issues). You can't mitigate 100% uptime healing debuff even if order healer spec cleanse, but you certainly can as dest healers because it's applied once every 10 seconds
Actually no, rp with Swift Runes slotted is perfectly capable of cleaning dok heal debuff as fast as dok applies it. From other hand, since wp heal debuff is applied in controlled fashion, covering it by 2 debuffs is trivial, so unless there are two healers focus cleansing the target, or again zealot with Endless Gifts slotted, it will stay there. I do it on WE, so wp can do it perfectly fine as well.

Only advantage for dok is vs parry, or if need to switch targets in under 10 sec, which isn't necessarily worth the tactic slot cost.
"Can we play with him, master? He seems so unhappy. Let us help him smile. Please? Or at least let us carve one on his face when he stops screaming."

— Azeila, Alluress of Slaanesh

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GrandmaGary
Posts: 26

Re: Dok heal debuff vs wp one.

Post#8 » Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:26 am

Zxul wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:39 pm

Base weapon speed likely 2.4, with aa haste 2.4/1.5=1.6 speed. 10/1.6= 6.25 main hand attack per 10 sec. 6.25 *1.45 for offhand= 9 aa hits in total per 10 sec.

GCD is 1.5 sec, 10/1.5=6.67 ability hits per 10 sec.

9+6.67=15.67 total hits per 10 sec.

40% crit vs -20% to be crit= 20% actual crit. 15.67 *20%= 3 actual crits per 10 sec.

So no, in actual fight dok will get 3 heal debuffs off in 10 sec on average, try again.
ok so first you need to eat a snickers you aren't you when you're hungry. 2nd You can't apply that math as the base for every fight cause of wildly various factors. But for your specific example 3 procs per 10 seconds with the debuff lasting 5 seconds would give 100% uptime making my original point still valid.

Even with cleanses from a single DoK alone there is potentially 5 curses on the target to go through.

There is no contest the DoK heal debuff is vastly superior.

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Zxul
Posts: 967

Re: Dok heal debuff vs wp one.

Post#9 » Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:23 am

GrandmaGary wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:26 am
Zxul wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:39 pm

Base weapon speed likely 2.4, with aa haste 2.4/1.5=1.6 speed. 10/1.6= 6.25 main hand attack per 10 sec. 6.25 *1.45 for offhand= 9 aa hits in total per 10 sec.

GCD is 1.5 sec, 10/1.5=6.67 ability hits per 10 sec.

9+6.67=15.67 total hits per 10 sec.

40% crit vs -20% to be crit= 20% actual crit. 15.67 *20%= 3 actual crits per 10 sec.

So no, in actual fight dok will get 3 heal debuffs off in 10 sec on average, try again.
ok so first you need to eat a snickers you aren't you when you're hungry. 2nd You can't apply that math as the base for every fight cause of wildly various factors. But for your specific example 3 procs per 10 seconds with the debuff lasting 5 seconds would give 100% uptime making my original point still valid.

Even with cleanses from a single DoK alone there is potentially 5 curses on the target to go through.

There is no contest the DoK heal debuff is vastly superior.
1. Actually I can apply the math, factors in calculation are same no matter the fight.
2. With wp's debuff lasting 10 sec and having a 10 sec cd it also has a 100% uptime, so what exactly are you trying to say?
3. "Even with cleanses from a single DoK alone there is potentially 5 curses on the target to go through."- again, what are you trying to say exactly, cause it ain't working.
4. "There is no contest the DoK heal debuff is vastly superior."- and just how did you manage to come to that conclusion?
"Can we play with him, master? He seems so unhappy. Let us help him smile. Please? Or at least let us carve one on his face when he stops screaming."

— Azeila, Alluress of Slaanesh

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GrandmaGary
Posts: 26

Re: Dok heal debuff vs wp one.

Post#10 » Fri Oct 02, 2020 5:35 am

Zxul wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:23 am
GrandmaGary wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:26 am
Zxul wrote:
Thu Oct 01, 2020 3:39 pm

Base weapon speed likely 2.4, with aa haste 2.4/1.5=1.6 speed. 10/1.6= 6.25 main hand attack per 10 sec. 6.25 *1.45 for offhand= 9 aa hits in total per 10 sec.

GCD is 1.5 sec, 10/1.5=6.67 ability hits per 10 sec.

9+6.67=15.67 total hits per 10 sec.

40% crit vs -20% to be crit= 20% actual crit. 15.67 *20%= 3 actual crits per 10 sec.

So no, in actual fight dok will get 3 heal debuffs off in 10 sec on average, try again.
ok so first you need to eat a snickers you aren't you when you're hungry. 2nd You can't apply that math as the base for every fight cause of wildly various factors. But for your specific example 3 procs per 10 seconds with the debuff lasting 5 seconds would give 100% uptime making my original point still valid.

Even with cleanses from a single DoK alone there is potentially 5 curses on the target to go through.

There is no contest the DoK heal debuff is vastly superior.
1. Actually I can apply the math, factors in calculation are same no matter the fight.
2. With WP's debuff lasting 10 sec and having a 10 sec cd it also has a 100% uptime, so what exactly are you trying to say?
3. "Even with cleanses from a single DoK alone there is potentially 5 curses on the target to go through."- again, what are you trying to say exactly, cause it ain't working.
4. "There is no contest the DoK heal debuff is vastly superior."- and just how did you manage to come to that conclusion?
1. Different crit change changes the math for every situation alone never mind all the checks against initiative/futile strikes other buffs/debuffs etc so the final proc per minute will be different at any given time.
2. WP debuff can be defended against, DoK can't. That heavily skews in the DoKs favour
3. You said being cleansed was a weakness. WP debuff is a curse which can also be cleansed. Against a single DoK a healer has a chance to cleanse a DoK heal debuff which will be reapplied almost right away again plus they have to contend with other curses also on the target which reduces the chance of it being removed. The reduced chance of it being removed increases the uptime further.
4. Heal debuff with almost 100% effective uptime at the cost of a tactic slot vs an on demand healdubuff which has a cooldown and can be defended against. WP also has slightly less dispel protection because Sigmars Wrath doesn't debuff strength so 1 less curse.

I agree that a DPS WP has strengths a DoK doesn't have but the heal debuff isn't one in my opinion.

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