Dok heal debuff vs wp one.

[Rockalypse]

If any of people here have balance proposal with regard to dok/wp you are all welcome here Suggestions & Feedback and here Proposals. These are actually looked at frequently.
Here it will just be drown in salt and tears.

[Sinisterror]

This is why ive been wanting guilty soul on dok and wp's heal debuff skill because dok heal debuff tactic is not worth it anymore. Add guilty soul for dok as well + add auto attack dmg for warrior priest as well on guilty soul. I would also love very slow wpns on wp 2handers like 4.5-6 sec. and make wp's aa haste tactic 75 % instead of 50 %. Dok aa haste would stay at 50 % and no auto attack dmg boost on guilty soul. Guilty soul should absolutely heal as well and 2hander /dualwield has taken hit because of shield wp/dok and shield wp is very op probably dok as well. Judgement/fist of khaine is soul essence and divine strike also so after short while 2hander/dual wield just dont have the mechanics to balance life tap heals properly now. If the fear is that full dps wp/dok heals too much just prevent 25 % heal tactic from working when using 2h/dualwield healing now.

Very least essence lash/smite should give alot more soul essence than it does now with 2h/dualwield nerf. Give back grp heal life tap that uses ap, even if just heals dok/wp only so there is a chance to balance mechanics with somewhat better. Buff sigmars shield to do same amount of dmg to target than what it heals, every heal costs 10 rf and every dmg tick would give 5 back.

[emiliorv]

Before nerf => the DoK heal debuff was better because can be applied in more than 1 target.
After nerf => wp heal debuff is better because:
1- Can be applied on demand
2- Duration=cooldown => 100% uptime
3-Dont need a tactic slot
4-Low on tree => its only a 5 point ability, so its easy to take in more builds. DoK healdebuff its a 11 point and waste 1 tactic slot.
5-Can be used by other specs => DoK need to train full dps tree and get a really high amount of melee crit to make it worth. WPs can get his healdebuff in any spec and dont need specific stat to land it.

[Zxul]

1. Different crit change changes the math for every situation alone never mind all the checks against initiative/futile strikes other buffs/debuffs etc so the final proc per minute will be different at any given time.

Yes, if dok attacks lowbie with 10% to be crit, the chance to apply heal debuff will be higher. That lowbie however will die no matter what it is attacked by- so what exactly does it has to do with end gear dok vs end gear target?

2. WP debuff can be defended against, DoK can't. That heavily skews in the DoKs favour

Dok debuff can be defended vs too actually, so again wrong.

3. You said being cleansed was a weakness. WP debuff is a curse which can also be cleansed. Against a single DoK a healer has a chance to cleanse a DoK heal debuff which will be reapplied almost right away again plus they have to contend with other curses also on the target which reduces the chance of it being removed. The reduced chance of it being removed increases the uptime further.

Lets me introduce you to simple math. Healer's cleanse has a 5 sec CD, wp heal debuff lasts 10 sec and has 10 sec cd. With 2 curses covering it, which wp can apply solo, not to mention other stuff likely running on target, by the time healer will get to heal debuff (5x2= 10 sec) wp heal debuff will already run out by itself, and assuming the target is still alive wp will be reapplying it (again covered).

4. Heal debuff with almost 100% effective uptime at the cost of a tactic slot vs an on demand healdubuff which has a cooldown and can be defended against. WP also has slightly less dispel protection because Sigmars Wrath doesn't debuff strength so 1 less curse.

Per above, 3 wrong statements in a single sentence.

I agree that a DPS WP has strengths a DoK doesn't have but the heal debuff isn't one in my opinion.

And the problem is, with basic math its pretty obvious that your opinion is wrong.

[GrandmaGary]

1. Different crit change changes the math for every situation alone never mind all the checks against initiative/futile strikes other buffs/debuffs etc so the final proc per minute will be different at any given time.

Yes, if dok attacks lowbie with 10% to be crit, the chance to apply heal debuff will be higher. That lowbie however will die no matter what it is attacked by- so what exactly does it has to do with end gear dok vs end gear target?


Maybe I just have no idea how crit works.

If a DoK has 40% melee crit and fights a target who has enough initiative to reduce addition crit chance to 0 with 2 ranks of futile strike isn't the chance to crit that target 40%? I thought additional ranks of futile strike after that don't give a minus chance to be crit they just work as a sort of buffer that counter crit buffs/debuffs?

Or in your original example of having -20% crit is that coming from other skills/abilities?

[Zxul]

1. Different crit change changes the math for every situation alone never mind all the checks against initiative/futile strikes other buffs/debuffs etc so the final proc per minute will be different at any given time.

Yes, if dok attacks lowbie with 10% to be crit, the chance to apply heal debuff will be higher. That lowbie however will die no matter what it is attacked by- so what exactly does it has to do with end gear dok vs end gear target?


Maybe I just have no idea how crit works.

If a DoK has 40% melee crit and fights a target who has enough initiative to reduce addition crit chance to 0 with 2 ranks of futile strike isn't the chance to crit that target 40%? I thought additional ranks of futile strike after that don't give a minus chance to be crit they just work as a sort of buffer that counter crit buffs/debuffs?

Or in your original example of having -20% crit is that coming from other skills/abilities?

Negative crit works fine, so if you got -20% to be crit from having FS4 and items, and attacker got 40% chance to crit, your actual chance to be crit is 20%.

[Beara]

I prefer the warrior priests Heal Debuff. When they nerfed the Disciple of Khaines heal debuff, they really tipped the scales. Even if it reapplies, it's not controlled so when is it gonna apply. You can assume it's gonna apply, but what if it doesn't? DoKs have to crit, which means they have to hit, which means they can be defended against. The Tactic slot is a huge negative.
The WP Heal debuff is clearly better now. DoK's used to be better cuz of AOE it made it worth being a tactic. There is no guarantee to crit. it's a chance. If you hit someone in the back(Like you should be doing) there is no defense for the WP Heal Debuff.
I honestly feel the WP is much better than DoK now generally speaking.

[Gareul]

the HDs are fine as they are on both DoK and WP it was done to make all none morale HDs ST i think, just roll back the nerf to DoKs AoE cant remember the name wich was unfair nerf to DoK, and no don't change the mirrors they are fine giving ability's cross faction just takes away the unique playstyles of each class mirror.

[Gareul]

DoK did get overnerfed got some proposals brewing in my head just gonna look at abiltitys and tactics and put up a solution alongside my WP suggestions.

[xruptor]

There is a very similar thread to this here
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=41376

On a side note, In response to the original poster, I don't think the classes are meant to be 100% mirrored. They are both supposed to have their strengths and weaknesses, and each will have something the other doesn't. I think a lot of folks expect the classes to be exact mirrors sometimes. This isn't a response in favor of DOK, nor am I saying DOK is better than WP. I'm just saying that the classes in general were never meant to be exact duplicates of each other.