[Sorcerer] Sub-par skills?

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Aezron
Posts: 36

[Sorcerer] Sub-par skills?

Post#1 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:44 pm

I recently got my Sorcerer 60+ and loving the class, it's so much fun! I've mostly been playing a really fun PBAoE build (aka "Bomb build") that has been working pretty well for me (and also being really fun, being guarded is a must though).

Recently I started to check out some skills that I haven't been using, and noticed some being really sub-par.
I know many classes have skills and tactics (and morales) that could be improved upon, same goes for the Sorcerer, however these 2 skills really stood out to me as being especially sub-par. Maybe I'm missing something though.
I tested both abilities a bit on the new DPS-Golems with 100 Dark Magic and at 207.8 Damage Bonus (and 15% base crit).
https://imgur.com/a/qHR9xl6

First skill is the 13 point Destruction skill Shadow Knives [SK]:
It is very similar to Pit of Shades [PoS], but seems to be worse DPS than PoS.

SK hits every 2s, PoS hits every 1.5s. - (PoS a bit better, counting procs and more even spread of damage/time. PoS also lasts longer, costs less AP/s, and have less CD (with tactic equipped))
Both have 80 ft range and 20 ft AoE. - (Same)
SK requires a target (and follows a target), PoS is stationary. - (Different utility)

Damage-wise (with my current stats)..
SK seems to be roughly 306/2=153 DPS (non crit) and 730/2=365 DPS (crit at 100% DM)
PoS 255/1.5=170 DPS (non crit) and 630/1.5=420 DPS (crit att 100% DM)
https://imgur.com/a/OTNC8hS

..which is a pretty large difference in my eyes, especially as SK is at the highest spot for a skill (13 points) in the Destruction tree. Maybe if there were something unique to SK (like utility) it would be worth it, but right now a Sorcerer is better off using the base skill PoS which fill a similar/the same role as SK but offer more DPS.

The second skill is the 13 point Agony skill Shades of Death [SoD]:

No similar skill for the Sorcerer, the only ability for the Sorcerer doing what it does.
Places a Curse on the target for 10s that procs damage when target is hit by direct damage, maximum 5 times.

Since it is a proc, it never crits. The damage also seems to be really low, especially considering (again) that it is a 13 point skill in the Agony tree.
From my test it does a tad bit more damage than a non-crit Arctic Blast (2s cast base ability with slow if cursed), and since SoD never crits it will almost always be worse damage-wise (and it lacks utility that AB has).
In total, the skill seems to do about 131*5=655 damage, if all 5 procs proc before fading. AB meanwhile does about 605 damage (non crit)
https://imgur.com/a/jDejXch

As both of these 2 abilities offer nothing but damage, I feel like at least their damage should be considerable? They are after all 13 point abilities, yet they have lower power than basic core abilites.
Am I missing something?

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emiliorv
Posts: 1071

Re: [Sorcerer] Sub-par skills?

Post#2 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:55 pm

Aezron wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:44 pm


The second skill is the 13 point Agony skill Shades of Death [SoD]:

Places a Curse on the target for 10s that procs damage when target is hit by direct damage, maximum 5 times.
Since it is a proc, it never crits. The damage also seems to be really low, especially considering (again) that it is a 13 point skill in the Agony tree.
Hit for less than chillwind ticks...LMAO

In that tree BW got fireball barrage...now take a look to that 2 skills at 13pts in same tree...is a **** joke
teiloh wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:52 pm
Rampage is overrated, RUN AWAY! was hands down the best tactic in the game.

User avatar
Naelar
Posts: 225

Re: [Sorcerer] Sub-par skills?

Post#3 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:43 pm

The M4s suck, too, compared to BW.

nanakaros
Posts: 31

Re: [Sorcerer] Sub-par skills?

Post#4 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 11:16 pm

Shades of Death in reality hits 5*90 dmg = 350dmg.

Zilas
Posts: 7

Re: [Sorcerer] Sub-par skills?

Post#5 » Thu Nov 26, 2020 7:26 am

the spell should be instant, but has a cast animation of about 0.5 sec which makes it even worse

geezereur
Posts: 421

Re: [Sorcerer] Sub-par skills?

Post#6 » Thu Nov 26, 2020 3:08 pm

rework Shades of Death and reduce cast on gloom of night by 1 sec.

Aezron
Posts: 36

Re: [Sorcerer] Sub-par skills?

Post#7 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:55 pm

To be a bit more constructive and bring some ideas for change, I've been thinking a bit about the skills I brought up (and a few more, also affected).
I have read from the Devs that they would like to keep "mirroring" between classes to a minimum, and try to preserve/create unique classes instead. I have tried to kept that in mind for the following suggestions:

Shadow Knives
1) Increase the damage to be at least on par with PoS, but prefferably a little bit better
2) Now also debuffs the Initiative of everyone hit for x seconds. (Same debuff amount/scaling as Black Horror?)

Reason:
The damage should be on par with, or a little bit better than, its "sister skill" (PoS) for the skill to be used at all IMO.
Shadow Knives dancing around and cutting the enemies, making them more vulnerable to being critically hit afterwards (debuffs initiative). Would bring the skill some utility as well.
Black Horror is so slow to cast that I almost never find a use for it, better to switch the initiative debuff to Shadow Knives.


Gloom of Night
1) Switches place with Black Horror and is now available as the 5 point skill in the Destruction tree.

(I don't really like how this skill performs, but I don't have any ideas. Maybe decrease cast time to 1 second as suggested by geezereur)

Another idea: Instant cast. For X seconds, the damage of Frozen Touch and Daemonic Chill is doubled (or increased by X amount). Could be nice, seeing that Sorcerers lack a "Fueled from Within" type tactic that BW have, but also keeping the classes different (core tactic giving permanent buff for BW, speccable skill that give temporary buff for Sorcerer).

Reason:
This skill would fit better in the Destruction tree, seeing as it is AoE (and over time, yes.. but still)
It could use some improvement or change in some way, ideas welcome!


Black Horror
1) Switches place with Gloom on Night and is now available as the 5 point skill in the Calamity tree.
2) Changed to a "mirror" of the BW skill Playing with Fire, but as a Curse and dealing Spirit damage instead of Corporeal. The new text would be (mirroring the BW one):
"A Curse which surrounds the target with Black Horrors, causing all healing used on them for the next 10 seconds to become 50% less effective. Each time someone attempts to use a direct heal on them, the Horrors will lash out, and healer will suffer 250 Spirit damage."

Reason:
While it is "bad" to mirror abilities, I feel it is really wierd that the Sorcerer doesn't have a heal debuff. Thematically it seems to me that it is a debuff the Sorcerer should have, somewhere. And where better than in the same place and with the same power as the BW one, while also solving the issues with SK, Black Horror, and Gloom of Night at the same time?


Shades of Death
1) Now only procs from the Sorcerer's attacks.
2) Now able to crit (is this even possible if the skill/damage is considered a proc?) OR Heavily increase damage (and not have it crit) OR (prefferably) Now able crit and increase damage a moderate amount
3) Each time the damage procs, the target lose X amount (20?) of AP.

Reason:
This skill is really weak currently (in my opinion almost completely useless). Increasing its damage is a must for it to be considered useable at all, through any of the 3 examples in change 2) for the skill.
It also needs some typ of utility, being a 13 point skill. Removing AP from the target each time the skill procs seems fitting thematically, considering its description of "Your target is haunted by spectres of death and doom", sounds really demoralizing and suitable for an AP-drain effect.

I would love to hear your opinions or ideas!

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ScumFM
Posts: 19

Re: [Sorcerer] Sub-par skills?

Post#8 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 3:35 pm

Aezron wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:55 pm

Black Horror
1) Switches place with Gloom on Night and is now available as the 5 point skill in the Calamity tree.
2) Changed to a "mirror" of the BW skill Playing with Fire, but as a Curse and dealing Spirit damage instead of Corporeal. The new text would be (mirroring the BW one):
"A Curse which surrounds the target with Black Horrors, causing all healing used on them for the next 10 seconds to become 50% less effective. Each time someone attempts to use a direct heal on them, the Horrors will lash out, and healer will suffer 250 Spirit damage."

Reason:
While it is "bad" to mirror abilities, I feel it is really wierd that the Sorcerer doesn't have a heal debuff. Thematically it seems to me that it is a debuff the Sorcerer should have, somewhere. And where better than in the same place and with the same power as the BW one, while also solving the issues with SK, Black Horror, and Gloom of Night at the same time?
I like this idea, but would go even further with the switcheroos:
Gloom of Night is an instant cast, and 5 points Destruction. Black Horror is moved to the 13 point skill of Calamity, and Absorb Vitality is the 5 point skill. AV is okay-ish as a spell, it's at least worth the gcd in some situations, but it's more of a 5 point skill than a 13 point one, I think. Black Horror I would then make a mirror of the 13 point knockdown of the BW instead of the healdebuff.

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emiliorv
Posts: 1071

Re: [Sorcerer] Sub-par skills?

Post#9 » Mon Nov 30, 2020 11:32 am

Gloom of night:
-move to destruction tree
-make it instant
-Reduce cooldown to 5s (can be reduced with CD reducers)
-Reduce duration
-Reduce dmg
teiloh wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 9:52 pm
Rampage is overrated, RUN AWAY! was hands down the best tactic in the game.

Atropik
Posts: 607

Re: [Sorcerer] Sub-par skills?

Post#10 » Mon Nov 30, 2020 12:53 pm

emiliorv wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 11:32 am
Gloom of night:
-move to destruction tree
-make it instant
-Reduce cooldown to 5s (can be reduced with CD reducers)
-Reduce duration
-Reduce dmg
Youve just described how ignite potion works xd
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