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[BLACKGUARD] Crippling Anger

Black Guard, Sorceress, Witch Elf, Disciple of Khaine
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arorwne
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[BLACKGUARD] Crippling Anger

Post#1 » Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:07 am

I know that this is your bread and butter snare, but it sucks so much! And then you get an AoE snare later on. Also, when compared to others(can't comment about Chsn or BO, sorry):

Binding Grudge: Like a functional version of Anger. Its DoT scales and that opens so many doors for IB. Really, when you put these two next to each other, it's really hard to take Anger seriously.

Quick(Deep) Incision: As QI, it can be a spammable snare. As DI, it not only causes that, but a nasty DoT as well! And then there are Ensorcelled Blow, Centuries of Training etc.

Crippling Slash(Knight): Ok, Anger MIGHT be better than this, but this can also snare like 3(or is it 4?) enemies at the same time, it's ridiculious!

...really. But enough of me, what do you think?

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arorwne
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Re: [BLACKGUARD] Crippling Anger

Post#2 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:32 am

I mean, this thing right here makes you flatout not want to level a BG and it's a mighty shame, cool class, cool aesthetics, but feels entirely subpar(for a long time) to IB. Maybe under 2x xp lol. It's too basic for outside of that.

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Stophy22
Posts: 444

Re: [BLACKGUARD] Crippling Anger

Post#3 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:52 am

While I do agree that the BG snare lacks "flare" compared to IB snare (scaling off of grudges and what not) I don't mind the BG snare and as you have said, you get an AOE snare later :)
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arorwne
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Re: [BLACKGUARD] Crippling Anger

Post#4 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:14 pm

Stophy22 wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:52 am While I do agree that the BG snare lacks "flare" compared to IB snare (scaling off of grudges and what not) I don't mind the BG snare and as you have said, you get an AOE snare later :)
It's not the only skill to lack that flair. All in all, I have to conclude that an IB is much better in small scales and solo while BG is better in mass / aoe. Also, IB is a Buff powerhouse while BG is a debuff one.

Too bad my chosen BG "spec"(shield aka Bleaksword) is almost useless, all things considered(especially to BlOrk or Chosen Shield). Also, a lot could be said about solo performance of BG in general, PvE especially. I know that it isn't a solo game, but this server isn't exactly brimming with activity either. It's very good, but definitely not enough for #forgetsolo .

He's simply cool, that's all. IB is mostly better imo.

Nebuchadnezzar
Posts: 45

Re: [BLACKGUARD] Crippling Anger

Post#5 » Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:18 am

arorwne wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:14 pm
Stophy22 wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:52 am While I do agree that the BG snare lacks "flare" compared to IB snare (scaling off of grudges and what not) I don't mind the BG snare and as you have said, you get an AOE snare later :)
It's not the only skill to lack that flair. All in all, I have to conclude that an IB is much better in small scales and solo while BG is better in mass / aoe. Also, IB is a Buff powerhouse while BG is a debuff one.

Too bad my chosen BG "spec"(shield aka Bleaksword) is almost useless, all things considered(especially to BlOrk or Chosen Shield). Also, a lot could be said about solo performance of BG in general, PvE especially. I know that it isn't a solo game, but this server isn't exactly brimming with activity either. It's very good, but definitely not enough for #forgetsolo .

He's simply cool, that's all. IB is mostly better imo.
After playing both I came to the same conclusion. While BG offers some great AoE debuffs in a 6v6-WB situation in the form of Crimson Death, Hastened Doom, Wave of Scorn and Furious Howl, IB is just so much more useful in the solo-6v6 range because most of its damage abilities scale off of Grudge. If you compare Murderous Wrath vs Heavy Blow, Crippling Anger vs Binding Grudge, Malignant Strike vs Cave In and Punishing Blow vs Mind Killer/Crushing Anger/Furious Howl it becomes so obvious. The fact that they do 2-3x the damage at max Grudge makes IB a lot more balanced since while parry/disrupt tactics are great and all damage is good against anything at that player count. As much as I love the aesthetic of BG I've rolled an IB and have not looked back. It's just so much more effective as a solo tank(solo roaming is my main play style) and since I personally find Chosen to be pretty one dimensional/basic it seems to be the only tank option for me. The only things I miss are the mega punt, the absorb being vaguely useful and the channel being accessible without the WL bonus.

Were I mostly a WB player BG would probably a better choice and would be what I would play. A debuff machine seems more useful to me than being an AP battery and not much else beyond a guard bot(from what I can tell thus far at least). Obviously both can be useful in either setting with high end gear and the inherent utility of Guard/Challenge for groups. IB just happens to better fit my play style, as much as I'd prefer BG aesthetic wise.

I wouldn't say anything needs to change ability wise, I think it's okay that different classes are just better for different things. It's just unfortunate for the individual if you prefer one aesthetic/realm over the other.

Sofong
Posts: 554

Re: [BLACKGUARD] Crippling Anger

Post#6 » Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:07 am

BG need lots of love, crimson death is ok in small scale, but BG lack of wb play/group buff, basically unwanted for city wbs unless ppl cant find any chosen/waagh BO.

arorwne
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Re: [BLACKGUARD] Crippling Anger

Post#7 » Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:49 am

Sofong wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:07 am BG need lots of love, crimson death is ok in small scale, but BG lack of wb play/group buff, basically unwanted for city wbs unless ppl cant find any chosen/waagh BO.
Unfortunately, this is very true. Outside of crit / 2H build, there is next to no reason to take a BG. And when compared to IB...ouch, that hurts so much! I know that they are different uses(debuff vs buff etc), but here's what, based on trees:

OFFENSIVE: Vaguely better for BG, mostly because he has a simple access to tons of crit and aa haste. I still wouldn't ignore IB's Vengeance tree given all the DoTs etc. I'd say BG is better like 60 : 40 here.
DEFENSIVE: Stone is VASTLY better than Loathing, come on, can you even argue this? The only two things Loathe could have are -% to be crit(requires a **** load of time and effort getting) and longer KD(longer punt isn't necessarily good). But! IB has shorter cooldowns on those skills(10s vs 20s), easier conditions to access them(KD: Parry + Block as opposed just Block) ; I'll be merciful and give Stone 80 : 20 here
UTILITY: This is where they differ, but given the width of application of Brotherhood buffs, they are simply better than Anguish debuffs. Sure, Anguish does get something(like the beautiful 30% Disrupt tactic), but it's too little, too late. While Mind Killer isn't bad, Guarded Attack is simply better, has more uses(vs Caster / vs Melee dps + vs Tank + PvE) ; this is yet another easy 66 : 33 win for IB.

TOTAL: Yeah, BG is awful outside of 2H. IB completely crushes it(and IB is also quite good with 2H - not SM / BG good, but still good) - 182 : 93(lol) and is there any reason to actually take a BG instead of another BlOrk?

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Earthcake
Posts: 251

Re: [BLACKGUARD] Crippling Anger

Post#8 » Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:52 pm

I thought that everyone agreed that 2h BG are VERY good in ranked, which are 6vs6 or "small scale".

For warband play, SnB IB can be tankier, can have a better AP pump, and an amazing parry buff. That's about it, other skills are simply not great, or they definitely are great but you don't have time to use them if you want to buff your friend (one and only, IB are grumpy, they don't get many friends) and feed AP continuously.
BG control is also better with a better aoe snare, a better punt and a better KD.

I really don't see why ppl say IB > BG except in "minuscule" scale like 2v2.

BG real problem is that both Chosen and Black Orc are so strong, so they look weak in comparison.

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arorwne
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Re: [BLACKGUARD] Crippling Anger

Post#9 » Sat Apr 17, 2021 2:52 pm

Earthcake wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:52 pm I thought that everyone agreed that 2h BG are VERY good in ranked, which are 6vs6 or "small scale".

For warband play, SnB IB can be tankier, can have a better AP pump, and an amazing parry buff. That's about it, other skills are simply not great, or they definitely are great but you don't have time to use them if you want to buff your friend (one and only, IB are grumpy, they don't get many friends) and feed AP continuously.
BG control is also better with a better aoe snare, a better punt and a better KD.

I really don't see why ppl say IB > BG except in "minuscule" scale like 2v2.

BG real problem is that both Chosen and Black Orc are so strong, so they look weak in comparison.
2H BG is fantastic. It's just not what I am looking for. And I wouldn't necessarily say that Chosen is stronger, but that he is more useful. And BO is really strong, no doubt about that. So much of...everything!

Yes, IB is infinitely better below 3 targets. Above, BG is better. Simply different flavors, that's all. Unfortunately for me, a lot of solo encounters, be it PvE or PvP, simply end up better and more comfortable on an IB.

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