[Ironbreaker] Mechanic tweak

[th3gatekeeper]

I disagree. From a lore perspective, i love the idea that you get more powerful has the heat of the battle rages. What i was pointing is that without a tactic, you somtimes cannot use the mechanic at all. Which makes the mechanic need a tactic to be reliable. Which restrict variety.

But in some ways people equate this to one-shot ability and god mode gamechanging buff to the class...

And this would be great, if the game were designed around this... but even in SCs TTK is short. If you actually listed out the full "rotation" of abilities and how long it would take, especially all the buffs/debuffs for the IB/BG its like 2x the length of a "rotation" of the other tanks.

Dont get me wrong, lore perspective and what not is cool, but having a long "build up" mechanic like this, only hurts the class compared to others that dont have this AND bring more to the table than the IB/BG...

if you want the IB/BG to be the thing to balance around then EVERY class almost will need a nerf, especially classes like Sorc/BW who have a much much shorter "rotation" and can blow someone up in a few GCDs if they are not guarded or being cleansed/healed.

I dont know about you, but I never even get CLOSE to doing a full rotation. By the time I can even build up to use CD on my BG, the target is over halfway dead, CD adds the extra "umph" and in RVR I often dont even get to use it because of AOE/Morale spam or just sheer RDPS killing everyone.

I have respect for you bro, and it seems we are cut from the same cloth where we prefer closer/smaller/more "intimate" fights... Which then this type of class is a great option (like a 6v6 for example) TTK isnt short, you DO have time to build this all up, etc. etc... but even then, compared to the other two options, the BG/IB still offer less AND require more build up to offer what they do offer.

[TenTonHammer]

You are touching on the fundamental design flaw of the IB and the BG...

I have played Knight/Chosen/SM/BG extensively (still yet to play BO, and have a mid tier IB) but the fundamental flaw in both classes is the current grudge/hate mechanic.

With the SM/BO for instance, you can cycle through your stances in just a few GCDs and for the most part, dont have restrictions on what to do, when.

The Knight/Chosen have a similar design (even if you go back to the aura twisting days) there wasnt a huge "build up" time required for the classes to utilize abilities.

For the BG specifically, and maybe the IB is this way too, you have a few GCDs of just trying to build hate/grudges to THEN utilize your abilities. I wrote extensively on this in the BG "feedback" thread only to have it subsequently locked. You can go there to find the details.

The SOLUTION is rather to re-evaluate the mechanic in and of itself and my suggestion was to make them BOTH more dynamic. Right now, you are gaining 5 hate, or 3-10 grudge when someone attacks your DP/OF, or gaining small amounts of grudge/hate when you attack...

Your abilities are broken into basically 3 categories, 2 of which are largely "competitors" to eachother.

Mechanic Builders
Mechanic Scalers
Mechanic Spenders

The problem is, the scalers and spenders are largely "competitors" where you wont be using a scaler or a spender until your "high mechanic" to get the full benefit of them, so you end up spending half your time spamming the "builders" and then are forced to follow a set "rotation" using scalers then spenders without much choice and if you find yourself having spent your mechanic, and yet the situation calls for a spender and you dont have any... or maybe you need a high scaler and dont have it, your SOL where other tanks can get what is needed in 2ish GCDs max...

Ideally what a "rotation" would look like is:
1) builder
2) Scaler
3) Spender
Rinse/repeat.

instead its:
1) buidler
2) builder
3) builder
4) builder
5) Scaler
6) Spender
Rinse/repeat.

(FYI for the BG its basically just "EB for 3 seconds" every time its off CD just to keep mechanic up. So atleast about 40% of your GCD time is just spend channeling EB...

Where most other tanks dont have to waste as much time "building" a mechanic.

This is what makes IB/BG ultimately fail in comparison, especially with short TTK in RVR you dont have any time to "build" things like this.

So the best solution as I see it, would likely be to change the way you build the mechanic overall. There are many ideas you can use... But in the end, you need the ability to use your scalers and spenders within a few short GCDs of combat... The mechanic should be more "akin" to stances. Start with 0, 2 GCDs into the fight have 50-75 mechanic, and can use "scalers" between 25-75 mechanic to ALSO use as "builders" which you would then use some spenders, etc.

So likely something LIKE: "gain 25 mechanic" each "builder". Maybe removing the OF/DP mechanic building, and then adjusting the tiers of "scalers" to:
0: 50% effectiveness
25: 75% effectiveness
50+: Max effectiveness

Something akin to this.

Anyways, I dont know if this is what you intended to get into, but its the ultimate "core" problem of the class and the BG.... spending too much time "building" in combat, which restricts the class too much, and even if the class was more group-centric with its buffs/debuffs it still would fall short due to the wonky mechanic build up.

This is IMO.

I don't understand at all how this is a "fundemental flaw"


Only in solo play is resource generation for these 2 classes an issue, otherwise you can use dp/of and your fine if you float it

[lordnavar]

Played both shield and 2h. I feel when u focus 2h builds a grudge builder tactic becomes a necessity so you actually have 3 tactics available.

One quick solution i thought is to make great weapon mastery tactic from vengeance tree give also 5 grudge per hit.
That way anyone wants to spend and be pure 2hander can invest hight in the tree and solve the grudge build problem.

Its an idea that might worth the try.

[TenTonHammer]

Played both shield and 2h. I feel when u focus 2h builds a grudge builder tactic becomes a necessity so you actually have 3 tactics available.

One quick solution i thought is to make great weapon mastery tactic from vengeance tree give also 5 grudge per hit.
That way anyone wants to spend and be pure 2hander can invest hight in the tree and solve the grudge build problem.

Its an idea that might worth the try.

But then rising anger would be redundant ?

[Haojin]

i agree with volgo, ib is the weakest/gimpest tank in the game atm.


sarcasm was here

[ToXoS]

Maybe if the base hate/grudges would be 50 and not 0, both classes would be more "ready to fight" than they are now. Their mechanics would not be a burden like they are now.

[Eathisword]

i agree with volgo, ib is the weakest/gimpest tank in the game atm.


sarcasm was here

Hum. I didn't say that. I said on order. And please Zerglord, enlighten me, which order tank is weaker than IB?

[geezereur]

I am tired of having to slot rising anger on my Ib but kinda have to, I dont see how this would make Ib much stronger at all its a ´quality of life change. On my BlackGuard I never have to slot such tactics and they also got a 2 hander knockdown now and a bunch of other stuff.

[Alfinnete]

The great truth is that the Dest has been gaining more studied buffs than the Order. Planted discord.

[nocturnalguest]

I am tired of having to slot rising anger on my Ib but kinda have to, I dont see how this would make Ib much stronger at all its a ´quality of life change. On my BlackGuard I never have to slot such tactics and they also got a 2 hander knockdown now and a bunch of other stuff.

The most frustrating thing that not much to slot anyways, as I tried to say in my reply to the topic before massive derailment.
IB's tactics should be reworked deeply imo