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Some Love for my IB (and BG) Homies

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Brutinho
Posts: 68

Re: Some Love for my IB (and BG) Homies

Post#21 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:33 pm

This is the only way I see this working:

- Keeping it at 50%, but on 20Sec CD skills (Earthshatter and Wave of Scorn)
- Lowering it to 25% and attached to lower CD skills (Rune-Etched Axe and Furious Howl)

Sacrificing spameable single target debuff for a long CD AoE or mid CD at reduced performance AoE. Keep in mind that it is cleansable.

My 2cents
[BG] Amelios
[SQ] Gittens
[WE] Flaquita

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hammerhead
Posts: 139

Re: Some Love for my IB (and BG) Homies

Post#22 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:55 pm

Stophy22 wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:16 pm
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
kmark101 wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:23 pm
Stophy22 wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 6:22 am
Ah I see now well I won't waste my time but I'll say this, take it or leave it:

-Ib self heal build does exist (Grumble and mutter is the same ability as Bolstering Anger)

-AOE fluff does exist and while aoe damage does add up only when it gets past the heal threshold does it start to matter and BG aoe isn't the ability going past the heal threshold or putting any pressure on a warband haha, its just a means to apply wounds debuff.

-On BG I can reduce armor by 1200+1056=3256. IB can do the exact same. Most Mdps classes sit at around 3400 armor, so I don't get your previous statement.

-10second root on Rock Clutch is not something every tank has, Only IB MARA and WL have that. champ challenge roots you and the enemy in place and does 0 damage. If you can't see the importance of a 10second root without hindering your mobility idk how to help.

-You appear to have the ability to action point pump (Told ya so!) and (Watch and Learn) which imo is pretty awesome utility, as it comes from offense (hitting the opponent and landing crits). I'd consider this on par with Crimson Death because of how ap starved dps classes can get, but that's an opinion. Feel free to have a different one.

-Aoe slow and Aoe slow knock back, big potential there.

Again you can keep beating yourself up and saying you have nothing or you can work with what you have and make it happen. On one side I see iron breakers who complain like this about not having anything and on the other side I see iron breakers who are perfectly content with what they have and are doing things just fine. Maybe ironbreaker isn't the class you want it to be but I feel the same way about BG not being able to do magic damage. I don't whine about it though I just go and play my Chosen.

Again, pls roll an IB and see the astronomical difference.

Reduce armor you have miscalculated it, thats a 2,256 total instead of 3,256 :) Regardless, you just cited M1 root as an awesome ability, then how can I use my M1 to debuff armor at the same time?

Told ya so is a tactic that I think is the most useless crap of the whole game, literally never seen a single IB who slotted it. Besides if you would like to use it, you would need high crit, which is not the domain of the right tree... again, a pretty failed concept, good luck critting with an SnB build where your crit chance is literally 0%. Meanwhile a knight just fires up his AP aura for the whole group on demand...

Watch'n'Learn is great - but it lasts for 10 seconds... I mean wtf really what can you do in 10 seconds, thats like 2 swings with a 2hander...

Also, let me correct your last sentence. IB seems/is fun until you reach the endgame, in high end gear, where suddenly everyone and their grandmother is better than you. It looks great (at least for me) so people like the visuals of the class. It's just extremely underwhelming once you start to compete against organized warbands and high geared characters in small scale. It's just badly designed for this level of gameplay, but you don't see it until you reach it.
My bad on the math I was stupid tired last night.

You don't solely rely on tree spec for crit :P https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/c ... ,3742,3763 I'd do something like that with https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/r ... ;0;0;2;0;0 If I was going 2hand and wanted to ap pump my dps so they could make the most of those spining axes.

AP pump on destro is up to Dok and Zealot
Black orc is -5CD decreaser and that's realalistcally his use (whisper winds on SM)
Blackguards AOE slow and crit and wounds is his use, you don't really take more than 1 or 2 into an OpTiMaL CiTy WaRbAnD.
Chosen and knights got aura so aoe fluff debuff on check.

I agree with what the clown man said if thats true how IB can only aoe once every 10 seconds. Rending blade for Chosen is only on a 5 second CD and after WAAAAAAAGH! is popped is free AOE. So the changes I'd offer (instead of an AOE healdebuff) is

-Decrease Rune etched Axe to 5second CD

This gives you the aoe fluff you so desire and pretty good aoe fluff imo (ignore armor by 100% at 100grudges) Also you seem to have the wrong aspect of what a tank does late game. You stick with your respective guardee and keep them alive.
You and that White Lion whose putting out 500k damage in stage 1 is because you can keep his healing level managable and give him the ap he needs to do the big dammy. As well as providing support to his targets with CC and punting away guards but this can get pretty hard in the cluster **** of a city, but what isn't hard is staying with your dps to apply guard and CC (slows, KD) and buffs to him and his assisted target. AOE wounds debuff, crit debuff, and aoe slow are just some extras you can do on BG. Every tank has demo strike and Distracting bellow and challenge which are huge in city. Much huger than aoe crit debuff and wounds debuff. Challenge and m2 shout are huge, and make fights manageable which is what a tank does. A good tank makes a healers job easier.

I'd probably agree with these threads more if I didn't watch this man kick ass for years on this server. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPYBcZKGDOw Take in mind it was a lower gear cap back then but if he came back im sure he would instill fear in anyone who would face an ironbreaker.

but again maybe this is all hypocritical cause I don't play IB, but applying game knowledge and what I would desire on BG I think you have a pretty good setup with the above spec and point allocation (could differ depending on gear).

Also to answer your question you wouldnt use m1 demo strike at the same time of m1 root. You would just use m1 root and enjoy displacing targets as your teammates roll over them as they cant reposition or have 10 seconds of unblockable attacks. Don't ask silly questions, use that smooth brain!

Edit: in 10 seconds you could use the entire of grudgeborn fury (6 hits) and 5 filler abilities (5 hits) and grudgeborne fury again (4 more hits) for the 2 remaining seconds and come out with 15hits or 375ap not including auto attacks. compare this tooo
zealots who are destros main AP pump (besides dok) and zealots get the whole 1/5 (20%) chance to restore 50ap per ability (not hit) so in 10 seconds you have the chance to get a maximum of 500ap or statistically speaking you can get 1/5 of that 100ap. RNG baybee.
Well, the main thing is do not stop in your experiments. Nobody tested anything before you, or tried to evaluate the effectiveness of a particular tactic. I like the harsh build. Strictly said about the advantages of a IB and none of this is taken. Two classes are leveled and have full set. I need to find a new reason to whine.
(\|)o0(|/)

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zakgrin
Posts: 46

Re: Some Love for my IB (and BG) Homies

Post#23 » Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:44 am

Stophy22 wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:22 pm
So, BG player here, I'd say AOE slow is super underrated utility. An aoe heal debuff is kinda overkill so that needs to be rethought.

I'm not saying IB doesn't need any love but I play BG as my main at RR81 currently and I enjoy it as I have a spec for literally any form of content
-aoe slow crimson death for cities
-self heal 4xparry for duels
-no detaunt, hdbuff for healer killing

I'm not saying im perfect but I feel satisfied as a BG main. Now I see a lot of these ironbreaker threads lately and just by looking at your tree in RoR builder you have

-the aoe slow so you have a WB spec. (as well as an aoe KB slow, which if used right can be pretty good - don't chinese hero it up)
-Self healing duel build

The only thing missing is your kinda healer harasser which is tied to SnB on ur KD in mid tree tactic.
Aoe snares are cool, but they aren't good enough to warrant a wb spot. No one on Order brings an IB because they have earthshatter. As far as snares go, there are a lot of options from other Order characters! You have AMs ground snare, the various M2 60% snares, and the kotbs mini snare. So yeah, earthshatter is useful but you are only going to be able to pop it once every 20s and you don't exactly have the best control over who it is going to hit. 1-2 IBs are brought, if any at all are brought, specifically for guarding the most important mdps/Slayer and bolstering them. IBs parry, str, and crit buffs are strong, but most of the time only 2 other players in a 24 person wb will ever see those buffs. Maintaining 100% uptime on 2 other players is extremely difficult and doesn't give you much time to do anything else.

Furious Reprisal + HD can be useful for killing healers, but again you run into a cooldown problem. Your cooldown increaser requires block and is on a 10s cooldown, your HD is on a 5 second cooldown unlike BGs that is spammable. So you might be able to assist in killing a healer, but you are kinda stuck after that.
You don't have monstro rending which is just spammable aoe fluff (makes it look like BG does big dammy in cities) and you don't have Crimson death, which is really good but kinda defined BG's 2hand spec, so to mirror that would be insulting. Combined with wounds debuff it feels nice to believe ur aoe fluff is doing something important.

Now talking out of my ass cause I know jack about IB I don't think that because you lose crimson death it makes it so you aren't viable, still have armor debuff, more dots than BG, 10 second root m1, and a lot of things that I see could be fun to play with. Armor tactic and anti CC tactic makes me drool as well haha.

It seems like ironbreaker has more singletarget abilities that stand out, so if the desire is to have more AOE utility, maybe you're just not using single target utility effectively? Or maybe you actually do need more aoe utility. I honestly can't say but the main point is the fact that you have AOE slow, you should have a spot in any warband because that **** is very good and can make it so the enemy cant position correctly or make it so they have trouble kiting to a desirable location. It's not huge numbers, its not a bunch of DB's but you wouldn't pick a tank to play if you wanted those things, logically.
In cities and RvR, aoe is king. Most of us don't want aoe fluff. We want aoe that provides utility to our group/wb whether that is in the form of a buff or debuff. IBs have less aoe (buff or debuff) than any tank in the game, and because of this, face a similar fate to WH/WE and SW before their buff. In fact we don't have a single aoe debuff (snare doesn't count). Most of our core buffs can be overwritten by our tank brethren or are useless for some other reason. Not to mention Knights and SMs have plentiful aoe buffs and debuffs which pushes IBs further down the totem pole. I've posted this elsewhere, but can pull it here as well:

- As you are probably aware, IB/BG armor buff is not much better/equivalent to a pot (pots which did not exist on Live)
- IBs toughness buff will almost always be worse than Knights toughness aura (if they run it) which effects the entire group
- IBs single target magic bubble is only marginally better (stat wise) than SMs group magic bubble
- IBs corp buff is really only good for itself for the AA haste (in combination with WaL) and only if there is a caster. Knights resists aura is a million times better
- IBs/BGs critical hit debuff is garbo
- WaL is a great AP feed, but it has a 20s cooldown so it is pretty sporadic. Knights To Glory! can provide a constant feed + debuff.
- Inspiring Attack is another great buff WP + str, but the str part overlaps with ancestors fury...
- We have two aoe buffs, both which require a tactic. Oath of Vengeance (toughness - crap, also the tactic doesn't even work), and Told Ya So! which requires the tippity top echelon of gear to even run without losing most of your important utility. For anyone interested here is the build (you basically need to be wearing 6pc Warlord, and 3pc Sentinel). It is probably the best city build for IBs atm: https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/c ... ,3752,3742
- Lastly you've got parry and crit buff which are great, but only last 10s. So if you wanted to buff 2 other slayers in your wb, and you manage to pull everything off perfectly, that leaves you with roughly 3-4s before you need to start re-buffing again.

Logic tells me that our single target buffs should be much stronger than others' aoe buffs (auras, blade enchantments, etc.) but that is not the case for whatever reason. Not only that, but those aoe buffs extend double the range of our single target buffs which again is puzzling to me. I personally don't want IBs to have Crimson Death, because I'm not a fan of direct mirroring and IBs are supposed to primarily be buffers (vs. BGs that are debuffers). I also don't think we should have an aoe OHD because that will only further screw over WHs who basically are no longer viable in city wbs since the SW + morale patch. But I also don't think an armor debuff (that will be more like 900-1000), an m1 root that won't be used in cities very often because you are saving for Bellow, and some good single target buffs really make IBs viable over its competition. Ancestral Inheritance is good early game (not so much late game because it is easy to hit the armor cap), and the anti CC tactics are nice for yourself, you just don't have a lot to offer the group.

I don't know what the answer is, but the devs could start by fixing IBs and honestly BGs horrible middle tree. They are essentially pve trees that have not changed since Live... On Live you needed a super tough tank for handling the pve bosses in the city (perfect for IBs and BGs), whereas in RoR city is basically just a large scenario. Most of the stuff in our middle tree is absolute crap, and no one is going to run it. Take Shield Mastery/Shield of the Hated for instance, you have to spend 13 points for a tactic that BOs get for free. How does that make sense xD? Avenging the Debt is another hilarious one... how the hell is a S/B tank supposed to reliably get the killing blow with a specific skill xD?? It is hard enough to get dbs on an S/B tank as is. Then there's Oathstone which has the same mechanic as Elite Training (funny that BGs get a group buff ability and IBs don't), but is extremely expensive and ONLY viable for pve.

So yeah I would agree with others that there are probably other classes in line for a buff before IB/BG, but without a doubt IB is the worst tank for endgame (cities) in the game and could definitely use some help.
Zakgrin - rr8x Ironbreaker
Knights of Order
Ironbreaker Guide - Suggestions and Feedback always welcome!

mubbl
Posts: 226

Re: Some Love for my IB (and BG) Homies

Post#24 » Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:38 am

Order: Destro has to much crowd control
Also Order: why should i take counter meassures?
I dont know why certain thinks are said, like crit is a problem for an snb ib, if you build your wb right you get like 35% without any real investment?
5sec cd on 20 sec hd is also marginal, thanks to ww.
Aoe kd with build in slow is maybe best punt in game, but need timing.
25% parry for 2 peeps atleast is huge.
10% Crit buff also.
Talking about aoe dmg, as snb bg you crit for 80 maybe 120, while dropping your defences.
19% less dmg taken with a shield is also okay, i guess.( 2 tactic slots but 19% less dmg taken)
Main reason to take a bg in destro wb is htl, aoe slow, defence debuff, or 2h without htl and crimson death instead.

TreefAM
Posts: 227

Re: Some Love for my IB (and BG) Homies

Post#25 » Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:31 am

The only reason you would want snb bgs in your warband is if it's a warband specifically built for pushing into funnels during sieges with their khaines warding m4, and that's it. While being tough tanks with good avoidance, snb bgs don't really offer much, our single target buffs are kinda eh, except for FoF which does stack with armor pots.

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zakgrin
Posts: 46

Re: Some Love for my IB (and BG) Homies

Post#26 » Sat Jun 20, 2020 4:44 pm

mubbl wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:38 am
I dont know why certain thinks are said, like crit is a problem for an snb ib, if you build your wb right you get like 35% without any real investment?
You can get to 25% pretty easy s/b with Sweet Revenge and AF but you are going to be sacrificing survivability in the tactics you have to run so why not just go 2h anyways? Not really sure how you get to 35% without investing in melee crit.
5sec cd on 20 sec hd is also marginal, thanks to ww.
This gives me the impression you have never run with an Order premade before. 4 Knights in a wb is meta for a reason = an IB and SM are realistically never going to be paired together.
Aoe kd with build in slow is maybe best punt in game, but need timing.
It is also extremely situational and usually just hands out free immunities. Not really worth bringing to a city in my opinion.
25% parry for 2 peeps atleast is huge.
10% Crit buff also.
Talking about aoe dmg, as snb bg you crit for 80 maybe 120, while dropping your defences.
19% less dmg taken with a shield is also okay, i guess.( 2 tactic slots but 19% less dmg taken)
Main reason to take a bg in destro wb is htl, aoe slow, defence debuff, or 2h without htl and crimson death instead.
I like our single targets buffs, but they are just that, single target. It should be obvious by now that the most needed thing in a city is aoe. It is the reason why WH/WE, IB, and until recently SW had very little spots in this 24 aoe cap meta, if any spots at all in a premade. Spending basically your entire time buffing 2 players in city, means you have no time to do anything else, and frankly pails in comparison to Knights auras (and various other aoes such as arcing swing), SM blade enchantments + WW + Crushing Advance (their most useful aoe) that go over a much further range than your single target buffs. Knights passive abilities literally require no skill to use, and they can do things like HTL while their greatest benefits are still working their magic.

Destro premades are not bringing S/B BGs. Why is that? Because they don't provide anything to the group.
TreefAM wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:31 am
The only reason you would want snb bgs in your warband is if it's a warband specifically built for pushing into funnels during sieges with their khaines warding m4, and that's it. While being tough tanks with good avoidance, snb bgs don't really offer much, our single target buffs are kinda eh, except for FoF which does stack with armor pots.
Pots and ability buffs don't stack. The only armor buffs I'm aware of that stack with pots are Engi's flak jacket, and the magus equivalent (unless something has changed with FoF). If you have spent enough points to get FoF, then your armor buff is going to be better than a pot, but your armor will only be increased by the difference. If your armor buff at 13 points is 930, and you are using a 660 pot, then your armor will go up by an additional 270 only.
Zakgrin - rr8x Ironbreaker
Knights of Order
Ironbreaker Guide - Suggestions and Feedback always welcome!

Bloodlet
Posts: 71

Re: Some Love for my IB (and BG) Homies

Post#27 » Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:52 pm

zakgrin wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:44 am
Stophy22 wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:22 pm
So, BG player here, I'd say AOE slow is super underrated utility. An aoe heal debuff is kinda overkill so that needs to be rethought.

I'm not saying IB doesn't need any love but I play BG as my main at RR81 currently and I enjoy it as I have a spec for literally any form of content
-aoe slow crimson death for cities
-self heal 4xparry for duels
-no detaunt, hdbuff for healer killing

I'm not saying im perfect but I feel satisfied as a BG main. Now I see a lot of these ironbreaker threads lately and just by looking at your tree in RoR builder you have

-the aoe slow so you have a WB spec. (as well as an aoe KB slow, which if used right can be pretty good - don't chinese hero it up)
-Self healing duel build

The only thing missing is your kinda healer harasser which is tied to SnB on ur KD in mid tree tactic.
Aoe snares are cool, but they aren't good enough to warrant a wb spot. No one on Order brings an IB because they have earthshatter. As far as snares go, there are a lot of options from other Order characters! You have AMs ground snare, the various M2 60% snares, and the kotbs mini snare. So yeah, earthshatter is useful but you are only going to be able to pop it once every 20s and you don't exactly have the best control over who it is going to hit. 1-2 IBs are brought, if any at all are brought, specifically for guarding the most important mdps/Slayer and bolstering them. IBs parry, str, and crit buffs are strong, but most of the time only 2 other players in a 24 person wb will ever see those buffs. Maintaining 100% uptime on 2 other players is extremely difficult and doesn't give you much time to do anything else.

Furious Reprisal + HD can be useful for killing healers, but again you run into a cooldown problem. Your cooldown increaser requires block and is on a 10s cooldown, your HD is on a 5 second cooldown unlike BGs that is spammable. So you might be able to assist in killing a healer, but you are kinda stuck after that.
You don't have monstro rending which is just spammable aoe fluff (makes it look like BG does big dammy in cities) and you don't have Crimson death, which is really good but kinda defined BG's 2hand spec, so to mirror that would be insulting. Combined with wounds debuff it feels nice to believe ur aoe fluff is doing something important.

Now talking out of my ass cause I know jack about IB I don't think that because you lose crimson death it makes it so you aren't viable, still have armor debuff, more dots than BG, 10 second root m1, and a lot of things that I see could be fun to play with. Armor tactic and anti CC tactic makes me drool as well haha.

It seems like ironbreaker has more singletarget abilities that stand out, so if the desire is to have more AOE utility, maybe you're just not using single target utility effectively? Or maybe you actually do need more aoe utility. I honestly can't say but the main point is the fact that you have AOE slow, you should have a spot in any warband because that **** is very good and can make it so the enemy cant position correctly or make it so they have trouble kiting to a desirable location. It's not huge numbers, its not a bunch of DB's but you wouldn't pick a tank to play if you wanted those things, logically.
In cities and RvR, aoe is king. Most of us don't want aoe fluff. We want aoe that provides utility to our group/wb whether that is in the form of a buff or debuff. IBs have less aoe (buff or debuff) than any tank in the game, and because of this, face a similar fate to WH/WE and SW before their buff. In fact we don't have a single aoe debuff (snare doesn't count). Most of our core buffs can be overwritten by our tank brethren or are useless for some other reason. Not to mention Knights and SMs have plentiful aoe buffs and debuffs which pushes IBs further down the totem pole. I've posted this elsewhere, but can pull it here as well:

- As you are probably aware, IB/BG armor buff is not much better/equivalent to a pot (pots which did not exist on Live)
- IBs toughness buff will almost always be worse than Knights toughness aura (if they run it) which effects the entire group
- IBs single target magic bubble is only marginally better (stat wise) than SMs group magic bubble
- IBs corp buff is really only good for itself for the AA haste (in combination with WaL) and only if there is a caster. Knights resists aura is a million times better
- IBs/BGs critical hit debuff is garbo
- WaL is a great AP feed, but it has a 20s cooldown so it is pretty sporadic. Knights To Glory! can provide a constant feed + debuff.
- Inspiring Attack is another great buff WP + str, but the str part overlaps with ancestors fury...
- We have two aoe buffs, both which require a tactic. Oath of Vengeance (toughness - crap, also the tactic doesn't even work), and Told Ya So! which requires the tippity top echelon of gear to even run without losing most of your important utility. For anyone interested here is the build (you basically need to be wearing 6pc Warlord, and 3pc Sentinel). It is probably the best city build for IBs atm: https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/c ... ,3752,3742
- Lastly you've got parry and crit buff which are great, but only last 10s. So if you wanted to buff 2 other slayers in your wb, and you manage to pull everything off perfectly, that leaves you with roughly 3-4s before you need to start re-buffing again.

Logic tells me that our single target buffs should be much stronger than others' aoe buffs (auras, blade enchantments, etc.) but that is not the case for whatever reason. Not only that, but those aoe buffs extend double the range of our single target buffs which again is puzzling to me. I personally don't want IBs to have Crimson Death, because I'm not a fan of direct mirroring and IBs are supposed to primarily be buffers (vs. BGs that are debuffers). I also don't think we should have an aoe OHD because that will only further screw over WHs who basically are no longer viable in city wbs since the SW + morale patch. But I also don't think an armor debuff (that will be more like 900-1000), an m1 root that won't be used in cities very often because you are saving for Bellow, and some good single target buffs really make IBs viable over its competition. Ancestral Inheritance is good early game (not so much late game because it is easy to hit the armor cap), and the anti CC tactics are nice for yourself, you just don't have a lot to offer the group.

I don't know what the answer is, but the devs could start by fixing IBs and honestly BGs horrible middle tree. They are essentially pve trees that have not changed since Live... On Live you needed a super tough tank for handling the pve bosses in the city (perfect for IBs and BGs), whereas in RoR city is basically just a large scenario. Most of the stuff in our middle tree is absolute crap, and no one is going to run it. Take Shield Mastery/Shield of the Hated for instance, you have to spend 13 points for a tactic that BOs get for free. How does that make sense xD? Avenging the Debt is another hilarious one... how the hell is a S/B tank supposed to reliably get the killing blow with a specific skill xD?? It is hard enough to get dbs on an S/B tank as is. Then there's Oathstone which has the same mechanic as Elite Training (funny that BGs get a group buff ability and IBs don't), but is extremely expensive and ONLY viable for pve.

So yeah I would agree with others that there are probably other classes in line for a buff before IB/BG, but without a doubt IB is the worst tank for endgame (cities) in the game and could definitely use some help.
100% agree with this post.

romgaard
Posts: 32

Re: Some Love for my IB (and BG) Homies

Post#28 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:18 am

zakgrin wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 5:44 am
Stophy22 wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:22 pm
So, BG player here, I'd say AOE slow is super underrated utility. An aoe heal debuff is kinda overkill so that needs to be rethought.

I'm not saying IB doesn't need any love but I play BG as my main at RR81 currently and I enjoy it as I have a spec for literally any form of content
-aoe slow crimson death for cities
-self heal 4xparry for duels
-no detaunt, hdbuff for healer killing

I'm not saying im perfect but I feel satisfied as a BG main. Now I see a lot of these ironbreaker threads lately and just by looking at your tree in RoR builder you have

-the aoe slow so you have a WB spec. (as well as an aoe KB slow, which if used right can be pretty good - don't chinese hero it up)
-Self healing duel build

The only thing missing is your kinda healer harasser which is tied to SnB on ur KD in mid tree tactic.
Aoe snares are cool, but they aren't good enough to warrant a wb spot. No one on Order brings an IB because they have earthshatter. As far as snares go, there are a lot of options from other Order characters! You have AMs ground snare, the various M2 60% snares, and the kotbs mini snare. So yeah, earthshatter is useful but you are only going to be able to pop it once every 20s and you don't exactly have the best control over who it is going to hit. 1-2 IBs are brought, if any at all are brought, specifically for guarding the most important mdps/Slayer and bolstering them. IBs parry, str, and crit buffs are strong, but most of the time only 2 other players in a 24 person wb will ever see those buffs. Maintaining 100% uptime on 2 other players is extremely difficult and doesn't give you much time to do anything else.

Furious Reprisal + HD can be useful for killing healers, but again you run into a cooldown problem. Your cooldown increaser requires block and is on a 10s cooldown, your HD is on a 5 second cooldown unlike BGs that is spammable. So you might be able to assist in killing a healer, but you are kinda stuck after that.
You don't have monstro rending which is just spammable aoe fluff (makes it look like BG does big dammy in cities) and you don't have Crimson death, which is really good but kinda defined BG's 2hand spec, so to mirror that would be insulting. Combined with wounds debuff it feels nice to believe ur aoe fluff is doing something important.

Now talking out of my ass cause I know jack about IB I don't think that because you lose crimson death it makes it so you aren't viable, still have armor debuff, more dots than BG, 10 second root m1, and a lot of things that I see could be fun to play with. Armor tactic and anti CC tactic makes me drool as well haha.

It seems like ironbreaker has more singletarget abilities that stand out, so if the desire is to have more AOE utility, maybe you're just not using single target utility effectively? Or maybe you actually do need more aoe utility. I honestly can't say but the main point is the fact that you have AOE slow, you should have a spot in any warband because that **** is very good and can make it so the enemy cant position correctly or make it so they have trouble kiting to a desirable location. It's not huge numbers, its not a bunch of DB's but you wouldn't pick a tank to play if you wanted those things, logically.
In cities and RvR, aoe is king. Most of us don't want aoe fluff. We want aoe that provides utility to our group/wb whether that is in the form of a buff or debuff. IBs have less aoe (buff or debuff) than any tank in the game, and because of this, face a similar fate to WH/WE and SW before their buff. In fact we don't have a single aoe debuff (snare doesn't count). Most of our core buffs can be overwritten by our tank brethren or are useless for some other reason. Not to mention Knights and SMs have plentiful aoe buffs and debuffs which pushes IBs further down the totem pole. I've posted this elsewhere, but can pull it here as well:

- As you are probably aware, IB/BG armor buff is not much better/equivalent to a pot (pots which did not exist on Live)
- IBs toughness buff will almost always be worse than Knights toughness aura (if they run it) which effects the entire group
- IBs single target magic bubble is only marginally better (stat wise) than SMs group magic bubble
- IBs corp buff is really only good for itself for the AA haste (in combination with WaL) and only if there is a caster. Knights resists aura is a million times better
- IBs/BGs critical hit debuff is garbo
- WaL is a great AP feed, but it has a 20s cooldown so it is pretty sporadic. Knights To Glory! can provide a constant feed + debuff.
- Inspiring Attack is another great buff WP + str, but the str part overlaps with ancestors fury...
- We have two aoe buffs, both which require a tactic. Oath of Vengeance (toughness - crap, also the tactic doesn't even work), and Told Ya So! which requires the tippity top echelon of gear to even run without losing most of your important utility. For anyone interested here is the build (you basically need to be wearing 6pc Warlord, and 3pc Sentinel). It is probably the best city build for IBs atm: https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/c ... ,3752,3742
- Lastly you've got parry and crit buff which are great, but only last 10s. So if you wanted to buff 2 other slayers in your wb, and you manage to pull everything off perfectly, that leaves you with roughly 3-4s before you need to start re-buffing again.

Logic tells me that our single target buffs should be much stronger than others' aoe buffs (auras, blade enchantments, etc.) but that is not the case for whatever reason. Not only that, but those aoe buffs extend double the range of our single target buffs which again is puzzling to me. I personally don't want IBs to have Crimson Death, because I'm not a fan of direct mirroring and IBs are supposed to primarily be buffers (vs. BGs that are debuffers). I also don't think we should have an aoe OHD because that will only further screw over WHs who basically are no longer viable in city wbs since the SW + morale patch. But I also don't think an armor debuff (that will be more like 900-1000), an m1 root that won't be used in cities very often because you are saving for Bellow, and some good single target buffs really make IBs viable over its competition. Ancestral Inheritance is good early game (not so much late game because it is easy to hit the armor cap), and the anti CC tactics are nice for yourself, you just don't have a lot to offer the group.

I don't know what the answer is, but the devs could start by fixing IBs and honestly BGs horrible middle tree. They are essentially pve trees that have not changed since Live... On Live you needed a super tough tank for handling the pve bosses in the city (perfect for IBs and BGs), whereas in RoR city is basically just a large scenario. Most of the stuff in our middle tree is absolute crap, and no one is going to run it. Take Shield Mastery/Shield of the Hated for instance, you have to spend 13 points for a tactic that BOs get for free. How does that make sense xD? Avenging the Debt is another hilarious one... how the hell is a S/B tank supposed to reliably get the killing blow with a specific skill xD?? It is hard enough to get dbs on an S/B tank as is. Then there's Oathstone which has the same mechanic as Elite Training (funny that BGs get a group buff ability and IBs don't), but is extremely expensive and ONLY viable for pve.

So yeah I would agree with others that there are probably other classes in line for a buff before IB/BG, but without a doubt IB is the worst tank for endgame (cities) in the game and could definitely use some help.
this is spot on!
Hope the devs read this...

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jbrutal
Posts: 76

Re: Some Love for my IB (and BG) Homies

Post#29 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 7:34 am

i would be amazed if there's an IB actually keeping 2 ppl buffed with 2 -3 buffs 100% uptime while still pk healers and assisting the main assist

Warstrong
Posts: 11

Re: Some Love for my IB (and BG) Homies

Post#30 » Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:17 pm

The only thing that motivates someone to play IB is race and appearance. KOTBS you don't need to use all your fingers, SM has the best damage with 2H and fun mechanics.

IB is a very interesting class on paper that needs more care and attention to become viable.

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