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[Engineer] [Poll] Fixing the three worst tactics for T4

Ironbreaker, Engineer, Slayer, Runepriest
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Poll: Assign your worst three tactics which need to be changed.

Bandolier
5
12%
Quick Reloader
6
15%
Reinforced Casing
14
34%
Extra Powder
2
5%
Proximity Alarm
8
20%
Stopping Power
3
7%
Well Oiled Machine
0
No votes
Other...
3
7%
Total votes: 41

Grimmrog
Posts: 48

Re: [Engineer] [Poll] Fixing the three worst tactics for T4

Post#51 » Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:28 pm

Karast wrote:
Penril wrote:I have a question to all experienced Engies.

If Engie is supposed to be a stationary DPS, wouldnt it make more sense if the turret buffed his survivability instead of his damage? Like improving his armor/toughness/whatever. I mean, a DPS buff is useless if you are forced to constanly kite as soon as a mdps jumps you.

Assuming they get a proper armor/toughness buff from the turret, and Guard from a tank, they would be able to remain stationary while applying their dots/debuffs (Coordinated Fire) and then burst with Snipe/M2 or whatever the hell Engies do when trying to burst.

Wouldnt it make more sense for a "stationary" dps class? Or not?
That sounds good Penril but it wouldn't really work.

This is because unless if you are tinker spamming blunderbuss and a few aoe dots, you cannot dps under pressure.

Set back kills you as a rifle engi, and even as grenade with firebomb, it still seriously hurts you. A few tanks and Mdps on you and you won't be able to do anything. Dot's alone do not give enough pressure, and cast / channels become useless with setback.

It is a little better in T4, but not by much. It would help tinker melee engi's, and it might work if you want to sit in napalm on a point, but overall it doesn't help.

It is pretty easy to tell I am not a fan of stationary engi. It is not the way I have played it traditionally, because it has always been a catch 22.

If you kite you can't dps, if you have guard and defensive stats you can't dps due to setback.

IMO, one of the worst changes they ever did was getting rid of our setback tactic, and putting in ES.
yes not being friend of it is one part why the trees exist, they should be able to cater differentplaysytels, but turret playstyle was never mant to be mobile. And if turrets are currently suhc a must have then they are designed badly. The more a specific tactic is mandatory, the more will builds be made supporting it. Abut then a class will have it's role defined by this.
Now comes the problematc part, when this role is defined and inferior to other classes changes will often try to push this role into competitive points by adjusting what it lacks. And this often redefines the roles, takign away the classes characteristic. But instead the original role should be buffed to a competitve degree and keeping the style. But thats often harder than simply adding that what is lacking and still working in another class.
Penril wrote:Well, i think we all agree that what engie/magus need is a complete overhaul of their mechanic.

And i was only giving those as examples so you got what i meant.
I don't think an entire overhaul is needed, the grenadier path is very fine. The rifle path lacks a bit of punch through armor. The tinkerer path has good ideas but was simply not focussed enough on the turrets, in fact the turrets are too mch stand alone supporting all pathes too much. The tinkerer path is heaviyl based on skills of short range, which means the engineer currently has to run around to make use of that. But instead choosing this path should force the opponent to come to the engineerbecaue of him being a threat in this state. Similar to how healers are a key target to weaken the opponents. Also it should support the team in a way so that they want to stick closer to the engineer with a tinkerer career. The keg is a good thing as it does provide a bit of a source of heal thats nice to have around. Same for the AP regeneration tactic. But this tactic feels a bit too strong and too early in the tree so it can be paired too easily with other trees. And the top morale 4 skill should be entirely different and less based on DPS than more of a seriously buffed version of Armored Plating providing a well deployed buff for the team.
Karast wrote:Yeah, when the balance forums open up, and this eventually comes up as a discussion topic. I think it is going to be a hard one, but I look forward to it.

But overall class mechanics aside. I still feel that low hanging fruit like horrible tactics / abilities, and big multi class issues like armor values, will be more important.

It is shocking sometimes how 1-2 tactics or abilities can make or break a class and spec.
So true, the makes of a class should be the Career choices and tactics should be the goodies, not the other way around.

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iraoul
Posts: 16

Re: [Engineer] [Poll] Fixing the three worst tactics for T4

Post#52 » Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:33 pm

Don't touch the balance.


plz

Seriously, every class have useless tactics

Sizer
Posts: 216

Re: [Engineer] [Poll] Fixing the three worst tactics for T4

Post#53 » Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:35 pm

Karast wrote:
Penril wrote:I have a question to all experienced Engies.

If Engie is supposed to be a stationary DPS, wouldnt it make more sense if the turret buffed his survivability instead of his damage? Like improving his armor/toughness/whatever. I mean, a DPS buff is useless if you are forced to constanly kite as soon as a mdps jumps you.

Assuming they get a proper armor/toughness buff from the turret, and Guard from a tank, they would be able to remain stationary while applying their dots/debuffs (Coordinated Fire) and then burst with Snipe/M2 or whatever the hell Engies do when trying to burst.

Wouldnt it make more sense for a "stationary" dps class? Or not?
That sounds good Penril but it wouldn't really work.

This is because unless if you are tinker spamming blunderbuss and a few aoe dots, you cannot dps under pressure.

Set back kills you as a rifle engi, and even as grenade with firebomb, it still seriously hurts you. A few tanks and Mdps on you and you won't be able to do anything. Dot's alone do not give enough pressure, and cast / channels become useless with setback.

It is a little better in T4, but not by much. It would help tinker melee engi's, and it might work if you want to sit in napalm on a point, but overall it doesn't help.

It is pretty easy to tell I am not a fan of stationary engi. It is not the way I have played it traditionally, because it has always been a catch 22.

If you kite you can't dps, if you have guard and defensive stats you can't dps due to setback.

IMO, one of the worst changes they ever did was getting rid of our setback tactic, and putting in ES.
You can sort of get past setback with close quarters and firebomb spam, it doesnt really work with rifleman, but rifleman is a long range spec anyway. The problem (aside from needing guard swaps as much as a mdps) is there are too many tactics. CQ + extra ammo + trench fighting + fighting chance or masterful aim. No room for coordinated fire, tracer rounds, insta turret, or armor (or a new defensive tactic for that matter).

You shouldnt be able get everything in one spec, but still, this is the problem with fixing bad tactics or adding new ones. Where do you put it? You could run a non-cq grenadier spec, which means replacing CQ and trench fighting with throwing arm and insta turret. You could do that without throwing arm, trying to imitate a range class but come on, with 65 feet it doesnt work very well. You could drop ap and rely on pots/ap talis/ect, but that doesnt work well either.

Those are the specs I always tried to run in t4 (I cant stand rifleman, and pull is just for cities), and it works, but it doesnt work well. It takes too much group support for what you can put out, and more importantly, you cant do damage while moving, which is the worst part. You could build in a defensive bonus/no setback without requiring a tactic, but thatd be such a massive change it should just wait for t4.
Aenea - SW / Aeneaa - AM
Sizer - Shaman / Artsupplies - Sorc

Sizer
Posts: 216

Re: [Engineer] [Poll] Fixing the three worst tactics for T4

Post#54 » Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:52 pm

Penril wrote:But maybe turrets could give different buffs (like Squig Herder pets) for different playstyles? Not all must be "+20% damage". Examples:

- Bombardment Turret: xxxxxxx and gain +5% crit
- Gun Turret: Increases your damage by 20% and xxxxxxx
- Flame Turret: Increases your armor and toughness by 20% and can not be setback.

Of course, you gain these bonuses only within 25ft of your turret.
Forgot to mention this. Pretty good idea actually, but id make it as follows

Bombardment - Immune to setback and 5% crit
Gun turret - Gain 25% armor pen on rifleman abilities (could be 50 to "mirror" PB, might be OP but maras get 50 so who cares)
Flame - Reduces damage taken by 10% (could be toughness/armor, but Id say flat % reduction is more useful. could even be more than 10%)

Something like that plus making insta turret built in would go a long way. Not saying it needs to be done immediately, but it could work. A big question is whether the 20% damage boost should stay in addition to the above or if that would be imba (id say it should stay, or maybe go down to 15%, as far as I remember in t4 you still didnt hit as hard as other rdps with the 20%, so without it the extra utility wont be enough to be viable), but again, it will have to be discussed more in t4
Aenea - SW / Aeneaa - AM
Sizer - Shaman / Artsupplies - Sorc

Grimmrog
Posts: 48

Re: [Engineer] [Poll] Fixing the three worst tactics for T4

Post#55 » Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:56 pm

iraoul wrote:Don't touch the balance.


plz

Seriously, every class have useless tactics

So because everything has an isses we should no try to imporve things?

that makes not much sense.
Last edited by Grimmrog on Wed Apr 27, 2016 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Penril
Posts: 4441

Re: [Engineer] [Poll] Fixing the three worst tactics for T4

Post#56 » Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:57 pm

As i said, i only mentioned those buffs to give you guys a general idea of what i was thinking. It would fall upon experienced engineers to decide which buffs these would be, and then see if anyone has any valid objections to those changes.

But i'm glad some of you liked my idea.

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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: [Engineer] [Poll] Fixing the three worst tactics for T4

Post#57 » Wed Apr 27, 2016 4:03 pm

I like the suggestion to make gun turret ignore armor for rifle skills (same would apply for magus too, naturally), though in the grand scheme of things would only be a bandaid.
Grenades doesn't offer anything great to a group so I'm unsure as to how it can be called 'very fine'
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Azarael
Posts: 5332

Re: [Engineer] [Poll] Fixing the three worst tactics for T4

Post#58 » Wed Apr 27, 2016 4:05 pm

iraoul wrote:Don't touch the balance.


plz

Seriously, every class have useless tactics
Cry more. It's going to be touched whether you like it or not, so learn to adapt now rather than later.

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Nameless
Posts: 1141

Re: [Engineer] [Poll] Fixing the three worst tactics for T4

Post#59 » Wed Apr 27, 2016 5:14 pm

Nameless wrote:giving the turrent some area damange reduction aura for nearby allies is good idea to add additional utility to the class. Tactics changes are no-go since the class already got plenty decent tactics to choose from.
The problem is that engies took too many blanked nerfs and after some global balancing changes they werent accordingly changed to blend into the new meta.

Adding to the turret 15% damange reduction aura and making WoM core are 2 of the must do things to do. After that there should be some fixes about armor stacking and dok group cleanse and the class will become much more usefull. Tweaking 4-5 skills and the class could be competative even for 6v6 \some dots do hilarious low amount of dmg\
i will just quot myself. Engineer just cant be stationary dps since that is not working at WAR dynamic fighting system. So to allow them more movement well oiled machine should become core into turret mechanic. By that you will have some freedom and some windows of opportunity to set freely your turret even on move. Additionaly add extra utility to the turrets via damange reduction skill. That will help others and will make engies more wanted for groups and will give the engi some defence since frontline specs are quite lacking defence-wise
do that, fix the dok/wp brainless group cleanse, adress armor stacking, test and then we will see if the class is still lacking
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Luth
Posts: 2840

Re: [Engineer] [Poll] Fixing the three worst tactics for T4

Post#60 » Wed Apr 27, 2016 5:24 pm

Shibirian wrote:
Spoiler:
Nothing needs to be changed for the Engineer.

They were the most OP class past patch 1.4.X because they cried at the Bioware forums and got what they wanted: OP en-mass.

And I played Order on live.

Actually this part of the reason the game was ruined because of requests like these lol.
Don't be surprised if no one will take you serious anymore after this post.
iraoul wrote:
Spoiler:
Don't touch the balance.


plz

Seriously, every class have useless tactics
I can't wait to see the balance forums going online, to get rid of nonsense like that once and for all.
Additionately: Going through your post history that is filled with one-liners that don't add anything to any topic at all, i have to say that your avatar was really an appropriate choice.

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