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Ironbreaker warband improvements

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zakgrin
Posts: 38

Re: Ironbreaker warband improvements

Post#51 » Mon May 11, 2020 11:59 pm

kmark101 wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 7:06 pm
Zakgrin you are doing a pretty good and important job, just ignore that troll who doesn't have an IB anyway. He is clueless.

Yesterday, in our city instance, the fight was intense, balanced 2/2/2 WB's on both side. Destro had 3 blackguards: all of them finished at 400k+ damage done by the end of stage 3. Order's tanks a few SM hit the 100k mark, our decked out IB did 60k damage total.

Yes, there is a huge problem with these mirrors. I had a new idea because of this.
I don't know about that lol, trying my best but probably sucking at it. I want to hear as many opinions as possible and I know nefarian is a good player.

Was this IB 2h or s&b? In my experience, a defensively specced and geared IB will generally be on the low end of the damage charts. You aren't going to have much str or ws which is the only thing IBs can rely on.
Eartshatter - increase the damage component (suggested in previous post), so even at 0 grudge is does some damage, then as your grudge increases, instead of bigger damage, just decrease the cooldown to 0 at 100 grudge. Imagine the WB options that IB's would receive with this, without going over the top (as their mirrors already doing this as we see with Crimson Death). It would also be balanced for small scale because of the grudge ingredient, as it is now (and tbh it should be changed to the same with Crimson Death, but I know that's a massive nerf to the BG and players wouldn't like it). To counter the grudge ingredient vs. the zero ingredient of BG aoe, the Eartshatter skill would keep their snare effect as it is now.
Could you explain your proposal a bit further? I am not sure I'm understanding the comparison between Earthshatter and Crimson Death here. Wave of Scorn is BGs equivalent of Earthshatter, but the damage isn't dependent on hate like Earthshatter is on Grudges. Would damage be increased with Grudge or would it be a flat damage value where the cooldown would decrease with Grudges? What are you envisioning for the cooldown component, something like the below?

25 Grudges: 20s
50 Grudges: 15s
75 Grudges: 10s
100 Grudges: 5s

If I am understanding this correctly, would be a change that would be easy to mirror to BGs.
Zakgrin - rr80 Ironbreaker
Ironbreaker Guide - Suggestions and Feedback always welcome!

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Fey
Posts: 470

Re: Ironbreaker warband improvements

Post#52 » Tue May 12, 2020 12:09 am

This is the ultimate <grab popcorn> thread. I just love the spammable earthshatter at 100 grudge idea. Spammable point-blank, not cone, aoe snare. I can hear Secrets blood pressure rising from here.

Path of stone sucks eh? Just like a dozen other trees spread among a dozen other classes. A spammable initiative/parry buff is, um, really good at 5 pts. Spam that mess on your sundry city mdps and profit. Also effective for floating tank that falls to backline to assist healers under duress from melee. You are not just a good guard-bot, you are THE guard-bot. If that doesn't appeal to you then sorry mate, you've just got to play a knight.

IB is an insanely fun and effective tank. Your role in city WB is to make your Melee MA unstoppable. I would sell my right testicle if I could guard Chopmaster in a city WB on IB, because the result would be disgusting.

For anyone who gives a crap my IB is 40/50 and my favorite class to play. Flame away Dawi.
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RORquest
Posts: 24

Re: Ironbreaker warband improvements

Post#53 » Tue May 12, 2020 12:15 am

not sure whats the topic of this thread is IB tank path of stone or more dps for my 2h paper tank

RORquest
Posts: 24

Re: Ironbreaker warband improvements

Post#54 » Tue May 12, 2020 12:16 am

Fey wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 12:09 am
This is the ultimate <grab popcorn> thread. I just love the spammable earthshatter at 100 grudge idea. Spammable point-blank, not cone, aoe snare. I can hear Secrets blood pressure rising from here.

Path of stone sucks eh? Just like a dozen other trees spread among a dozen other classes. A spammable initiative/parry buff is, um, really good at 5 pts. Spam that mess on your sundry city mdps and profit. Also effective for floating tank that falls to backline to assist healers under duress from melee. You are not just a good guard-bot, you are THE guard-bot. If that doesn't appeal to you then sorry mate, you've just got to play a knight.

IB is an insanely fun and effective tank. Your role in city WB is to make your Melee MA unstoppable. I would sell my right testicle if I could guard Chopmaster in a city WB on IB, because the result would be disgusting.

For anyone who gives a crap my IB is 40/50 and my favorite class to play. Flame away Dawi.
funny its always a destro main saying ib is fine

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Fey
Posts: 470

Re: Ironbreaker warband improvements

Post#55 » Tue May 12, 2020 12:19 am

It's more than fine. Heavy blow, for example, is an excellent ability for weaving between your other abilities. Order just needs to L2P.

I played AM on live. I wanted to play destro on RoR. I don't main anything. I play every class in the game. This is about me of course.
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Charon
Posts: 161

Re: Ironbreaker warband improvements

Post#56 » Tue May 12, 2020 4:05 pm

RORquest wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 12:16 am
Fey wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 12:09 am
This is the ultimate <grab popcorn> thread. I just love the spammable earthshatter at 100 grudge idea. Spammable point-blank, not cone, aoe snare. I can hear Secrets blood pressure rising from here.

Path of stone sucks eh? Just like a dozen other trees spread among a dozen other classes. A spammable initiative/parry buff is, um, really good at 5 pts. Spam that mess on your sundry city mdps and profit. Also effective for floating tank that falls to backline to assist healers under duress from melee. You are not just a good guard-bot, you are THE guard-bot. If that doesn't appeal to you then sorry mate, you've just got to play a knight.

IB is an insanely fun and effective tank. Your role in city WB is to make your Melee MA unstoppable. I would sell my right testicle if I could guard Chopmaster in a city WB on IB, because the result would be disgusting.

For anyone who gives a crap my IB is 40/50 and my favorite class to play. Flame away Dawi.
funny its always a destro main saying ib is fine

Eeee don't bother with this guy, Just check his posts history

Btw I strongly advice limit our creativity to ideas concerning Path of Stone. I don't think there will be any chance to change vengeance and brotherhood bc both trees have their use.

What is more I think IB need only 1 - 2 new strong changes to PoS that may copy (not literally) aoe value of CD and HD (so 1 tc and 1 ability) for BG and define new face of IB. That why my suggestion about morale remover or mayby morale pomp for IB. At he end Devs will decide.
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zakgrin
Posts: 38

Re: Ironbreaker warband improvements

Post#57 » Tue May 12, 2020 4:40 pm

Fey wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 12:09 am
This is the ultimate <grab popcorn> thread. I just love the spammable earthshatter at 100 grudge idea. Spammable point-blank, not cone, aoe snare. I can hear Secrets blood pressure rising from here.
Hey Fey! Thanks for your comment. I would agree, at this point if I am understanding the Earthshatter proposal, not only would it be OP but it would also be extremely annoying to play against. However, the example I provided was merely for my understanding, so lets see what Gryyw has to say! At this point, it would not be something I'd include in the official proposal on the balance forums.

But just to reiterate, this is not an official proposal. We are gathering ideas, many of which will not be included when we make our balance proposal. The goal is to blurt out anything you can think of, crazy or otherwise, because it may lead someone else to come up with something they hadn't thought before. We want to improve IBs in warband play, and specifically cities. In my opinion Knights and SMs can serve as good enough guardbots across the board, because of the other things they bring, that it doesn't warrant bringing many, if any IBs to a city right now.
Path of stone sucks eh? Just like a dozen other trees spread among a dozen other classes. A spammable initiative/parry buff is, um, really good at 5 pts. Spam that mess on your sundry city mdps and profit. Also effective for floating tank that falls to backline to assist healers under duress from melee. You are not just a good guard-bot, you are THE guard-bot. If that doesn't appeal to you then sorry mate, you've just got to play a knight.
Path of Stone is an IB's mainline tree and what is supposed to make it the best guardbot in the game. Based on that, I'd disagree with your assessment that many classes suffer from this problem. Many classes are in possession of a **** tree, but few classes have a **** mainline tree. BGs suffer a similar problem. All of their good debuffs are in Path of Malice but require them to bring a 2h to the city. So as I've stated multiple times in this thread, knowing that, it is not surprising that IBs/BGs generally only have 1 spot in premade wbs.

IBs as you say are supposed to be able to make themselves and one other player (preferably a slayer) super tanky, but outside of Oathbound, there aren't really any other tools to do that. Copying this from a previous reply:

Vengful Strike (toughness) - Toughness in general has been nerfed on this server, but if a Knight runs Stand Strong! (which to me is silly) they will probably overwrite your single target toughness buff for the entire party.

Watch An' Learn (WS and AP) - You get WS and your oathfriend gets AP. Has a 20s cooldown. Most Knights typically run To Glory! anyways, so this buff honestly is only a marginal improvement with a really long cooldown, while Knights have 100% up-time with theirs proccing every 5 seconds. This buff is great for giving your Oathfriend loads of AP in a 10 second window.

Guarded Attack - This buff is nullified by armor pots.

Inspiring Attack (str, willpower) - This buff is decent but is overshadowed by ancestors fury. You'll be using this ability as often as possible in a city/wb situation for the heal debuff, not so much for the strength buff. Another downside is it does not stack with ancestors fury.

Runic Shield (magic absorb) - This is the same story as the others. It is marginally better than SMs protection of the hoeth, but the difference is, protection of the hoeth applies to your entire group.

Avenging The Debt - Straight up garbage

Oathstone - Straight up garbage

So what I hope this illustrates is that the buffs that could be used to make our mdps guard a god, either get overwritten by AoE Buffs, are equivalent in strength to the AoE buffs (again no point in using them), or are nearly equivalent to pots. A simple improvement to the baseline strength of some of these buffs would go a long way, without even fixing the Stone Tree. As I've said many times, AoE buffs should not be as strong as single target buffs, just like AoE damage will not put out as high of numbers on a single tick as single target damage. So what that means is, either auras need to be nerfed, or single target buffs need to be buffed.
IB is an insanely fun and effective tank. Your role in city WB is to make your Melee MA unstoppable. I would sell my right testicle if I could guard Chopmaster in a city WB on IB, because the result would be disgusting.

For anyone who gives a crap my IB is 40/50 and my favorite class to play. Flame away Dawi.
We can definitely agree on something, of all the classes I've played between Live and RoR, IB is still my favorite. In small scale it can be an absolute badass and in wb/rvr play there is a lot to manage (single target buffs, debuffs) which makes it far more challenging but in my opinion also more rewarded than any of the other Order tanks.
Zakgrin - rr80 Ironbreaker
Ironbreaker Guide - Suggestions and Feedback always welcome!

User avatar
zakgrin
Posts: 38

Re: Ironbreaker warband improvements

Post#58 » Tue May 12, 2020 4:43 pm

Charon wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 4:05 pm
RORquest wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 12:16 am
Fey wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 12:09 am
This is the ultimate <grab popcorn> thread. I just love the spammable earthshatter at 100 grudge idea. Spammable point-blank, not cone, aoe snare. I can hear Secrets blood pressure rising from here.

Path of stone sucks eh? Just like a dozen other trees spread among a dozen other classes. A spammable initiative/parry buff is, um, really good at 5 pts. Spam that mess on your sundry city mdps and profit. Also effective for floating tank that falls to backline to assist healers under duress from melee. You are not just a good guard-bot, you are THE guard-bot. If that doesn't appeal to you then sorry mate, you've just got to play a knight.

IB is an insanely fun and effective tank. Your role in city WB is to make your Melee MA unstoppable. I would sell my right testicle if I could guard Chopmaster in a city WB on IB, because the result would be disgusting.

For anyone who gives a crap my IB is 40/50 and my favorite class to play. Flame away Dawi.
funny its always a destro main saying ib is fine

Eeee don't bother with this guy, Just check his posts history

Btw I strongly advice limit our creativity to ideas concerning Path of Stone. I don't think there will be any chance to change vengeance and brotherhood bc both trees have their use.

What is more I think IB need only 1 - 2 new strong changes to PoS that may copy (not literally) aoe value of CD and HD (so 1 tc and 1 ability) for BG and define new face of IB. That why my suggestion about morale remover or mayby morale pomp for IB. At he end Devs will decide.
Yes that is probably a wise decision. When I make the actual proposal, I'll more than likely limit changes to the Stone Tree, outside of suggesting a baseline buff to our default single target buffs (not oathbound/ancestors fury). I'll double check that I have your suggestion on the front. Sorry hard to keep up with everything. That being said, I also think suggesting changes that give us an AoE buff/debuff are unlikely as well given the nature of this class.
Zakgrin - rr80 Ironbreaker
Ironbreaker Guide - Suggestions and Feedback always welcome!

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TimOh
Posts: 15

Re: Ironbreaker warband improvements

Post#59 » Thu May 14, 2020 3:41 am

I did not go through this entire thread, but I am curious if it has been asked that a stipulation be placed on oath friend? This stipulation would be that when in a warband of 12+ people, oath friend could be applied to two people, in a 24 person maybe 3 people. It could be implement where the first person that you select as your oath friend stays that way in case you drop below 12 people, you could then select a new target, apply oath friend and any time your warband has 12+ it toggles on.

Ramlaen
Posts: 15

Re: Ironbreaker warband improvements

Post#60 » Thu May 14, 2020 3:31 pm

How about having Oath of Vengeance make Vengeful Strike pump morale for you and your oathfriend?

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