I'm just going to apologize in advance as this is going to be really long lol
Stophy22 wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:04 am
zakgrin wrote: ↑
Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:09 am
My personal opinion is that IBs will continue to occupy the bottom of the tank totem pole until they are given group utility in the form of an aoe buff, debuff, or cc that can't be brought by another class. They are the only tank in the game that does not have a single aoe buff/debuff ability. Every other tank has multiple aoe buffs and/or debuffs that come as default or can be specced into. Couple that with the fact that IBs/BGs middle tree is a remnant from a game that required pve as part of its endgame, it is not surprising that the BG and IB sit at the 5th and 6th spots respectively on the tank totem pole.
While I agree with some things you said, I disagree with this last statement, "IB will continue to occupy the bottom of tank totem pole."
Any tank able to apply guard and punt away the correct target is a decent tank. Grudges/Hate is not a hard mechanic to manage, but it is a mechanic to manage. So where you say knights and chosens are good I agree with you there. Chosen and Knights play with tactics more than they play with mechanics. Although IB could possibly rest at the bottom of a totem pole I see it more horizontally because the tanks, except knight and chosen, are pretty fair with what they provide or have. There are some issues though.
Every class is useful, but some classes are more useful than others. Punt, KD, challenge, guard, etc. are the basic abilities that all tanks have with slight differences. When we are talking about usefulness, I think these things play less of a role as they generally all share them in common. As far as mechanics go, grudges/hate isn't necessarily hard to manage (especially in a city environment where it is plentiful), rather it is the interaction between the class's mechanic and its oathfriend/dark protector that makes it challenging. Specifically with IB there are loads of buffs, and if you are keeping your oathfriend on the same target at all times you are playing the class wrong. Keeping buffs (many of which are situational or have short durations) up on priority targets when you only have a 50ft range to work with while performing the "tanking basics" is what makes it the most difficult tank to play.
BO/SM IB/BG all of these guys have to manage some stuff, and then their utility and buffs don't come close to knights/chosen aura.
-SM/BO don't have adequate single target punt range, or on demand KD (problem) But they remain a more offensive choice for picking a tank class (plus)
Honestly BO is super strong and probably isn't as far away from Chosen as SM are from Knights. They are both easily a class above IB, while BG is maybe a bit closer but still behind. SM/BO both have "budget" auras in their blade enchantments/war bellows. All of them are useful depending on group comp.
Most SM/BO are going to run a KD from the mastery tree, which actually is an on-demand KD (as it doesn't require a specific weapon or block). Not to mention BOs get a silence by default. The SM punt definitely has its downsides as it is usually used wrong, but there are situations where it can be extremely powerful.
Going further into the mastery trees on the SM you have WW (silence + group CD decreaser) which has pretty strong synergies with WL, SW (if it was more viable), and healers. They also get crushing advance which is one of the only aoe interrupts that exists on the Order side and is probably their most useful utility. Not to mention they get a group bubble and a 20% damage reduction aoe debuff in Raking Talons. Add all of that together and you have a pretty significant amount of group utility.
Going further into the mastery trees on the BO you have to start with Waaaaaaagh!. Waaaaaaagh! (aoe corp debuff + 25% AA haste for group) is so strong. Synergizes extremely well with sorcs, mSHs, and melee dps. Not to mention you can couple it with the Mor' Choppin' Dem! tactic and you essentially get WW without the silence which adds further to the synergies (also gives destro a CD reducer advantage). BOs also get a passive morale self pump Youz see me blok' dat?! which works very well with their default 10% block tactic (that BGs and IBs have to spend 13 points to get), in order to build up very quickly to the strongest tank M3 in the game. They also get a group bubble, an aoe str debuff, a 20% magic dmg reduction group buff, an aoe WS buff (if they decide to run it), and few other single target buffs/debuffs.
So frankly when it comes to group utility, I really think IB/BG is a class below SM/BO.
-IB/BG don't have crazy aoe debuffs and buffs, IB a little worse than bg (issue) But they remain very effective at helping a single or few allies (plus)
To be fair BGs get an aoe ctbc debuff in crimson death, essentially an aoe wounds debuff in hastened doom (as it just relies on critting, although Chosen can do it as well but they stack), and an aoe block/parry debuff in Furious Howl. I get that you have to run 2H to get most of these things, but these are decent aoe's that don't really overlap with other classes debuffs. BGs also get a spammable OHD on top of a stackable willpower debuff. I would even argue that the BG aoe snare is better than IBs because you can actually aim it, whereas with IB you need to position yourself in the middle of a group of destro in order to effectively snare them.
Although Elite Training is not good, it is surprising to me that BGs get a group buff ability, and IB (the buffer mirror) don't have a single one. The only ally/group buffs we have, require running a tactic. Oath of Vengeance has a tiny range and is pretty hard to setup (plus overlaps with Stand Strong!), and Told Ya So! (ap) is really not recommended when you can have a WP/RP bring their AP buff.
-Knights and chosen have no mechanics and boring playstyle (issue?) They have heavy AOE auras that outclass other tanks (problem and a plus)
While I totally agree, it goes further than that. Knights/Chosen can literally do all of the tanking basics (especially HTL) while their passive utilities do their thing. They also get a fairly sizeable utility toolbelt outside of their auras. So not only do they have really strong passive utility, they also have pretty damn strong active utility.
I've always liked how SM's and BO's were more offensive tanks than the other boys but basic tanking requires a knock down and a punt, and sm/bo seems to get made fun of for having an aoe punt. IMO they should get a punt that scales in range depending on what plan/stance they use it in. (best plan long knockback, no plan shitty knockback) And a on demand KD would be nice but regardless they at least have a KD. Currently BO's have a weird spot of being forced to be a Waaagh bot in endgame content while SM can sit pretty comfortably into whispering winds+left tree (esp if u get sov+2) but this is pretty small in my opinion as its a choice to what playstyle u want to commit to. But I do believe BO's and SM's have had more class definition from -5 second CD than anything else and should be looked at accordingly.
SM/BO certainly have the option to be more offensive and do really solid damage, but they also can be incredibly tanky. BO gets a 10% block tactic by default, as well as 50% block channel. SM can run a tactic that gives them up to 10% block and parry and an absorb tactic that procs of block/parry/dodge/disrupt. You can run 2h SM with WW, but you are losing a lot of damage, and it isn't really worth it.
Every tank naturally is forced to play a certain way based off the tactics and trees they are given and the gamemodes. IBs are buff/debuff bots, BGs are effectively the same, BO/SM are WW bots with a few others things sprinkled in, and Chosen/Knight are aura bots with a few other things sprinkled in.
Knights and Chosen kind of live at the top being the easiest class to play and the most effective one (doing nothing and debuffing/buffing depending on position.) Knights tend to have more CC and annoying things to cause pressure while a Chosen can be a little more offensive with magical based damage. I don't see an issue with these classes other than the fact they they get it all for nothing. Seems a little unfair for the stance monitoring class alternative and the grudges/hate monitoring class alternative. I've always looked at these guys as the "newbies" start to tanking. You don't have to do anything crazy and you're effective. Again its an issue how effective they are but I believe they should still be the "easiest" class to learn tanking on as imo tanking is the most difficult role to preform correctly in Warhammer, because guard is a unique mechanic most new players aren't familiar with. Some people even have to download addons to manage their guard effectively because the game gives no animation for it.
The fact that Chosen and Knights get so much utility for free is a problem to me, and a huge reason why IBs and BGs are in the position they are now with limited warband spots in premades.
IB and BG tend to be pretty well and honestly are pretty balanced. Not incredibly over powered and they have specs that support large numbers, small numbers, and solo. They excel at buffing one guy (or a few if you're good at switching protectors) but all this flair is outclassed by chosen/knight passive auras (they have higher values) that is an issue but not a make or break as they have a few unique things. I do believe the singletarget buffs of BG/IB should be of higher values innately than aoe buffs specifically chosen and knight but pots still give us higher buff values than certain buffs so until that's changed it doesn't really matter. The unqiue-ness of IB and BG remain though, they have the longest punt and BG holds the longest KD if he uses a shield. IB doesn't have 5 seconds but he has other unique scaling abilities off of grudges that BG doesn't (slow, channeled beating, heavy blow). There is more there but I'll leave it at this. I could go on and on about what each class holds but I think the bottom line is IB vs BG, they're diverse but very much balanced classes.
Unique class definition is important and I think the 3 tank classes do it effectively for both sides.
IBs and BGs are balanced alright relative to each other even though BG definitely has an edge, but not to the other tanks. They are in no way even close to being over powered, so to suggest that they are "not incredibly overpowered" seems a bit weird to me. I also love the IB/BG mechanic and their uniqueness, and any changes proposed or made, should keep that in mind. Fyi, IB does not have the super punt on the Order side. Pretty much all of our scaling of grudges is in relation to damage dealt (so it doesn't bring much utility except for in a 6v6 environment).
Ultimately they all have issues and that's all right. But IB not having spam-able aoe is not an issue lol. AOE utility might be an issue with some of the tank classes but knights and Chosens bring auras that dwarf most if not all competition is the issue.
I agree and most IBs that are familiar with the class would as well. We don't need a spammable aoe, as doing more damage doesn't really help the class. That being said, aoe utility without a doubt would help both IB and BG. Knights, Chosens, BOs, and SMs have quite a bit of aoe utility, BGs have a little, and IBs have next to none.
-Improve resistances and can't be shattered like other buffs.
-They increase/decrease healing around them and can't be shattered.
-Stat increases that are better than most values and can't be shattered.
On top of all of this they can still aoe slow and super punt.
If you view it as an issue some ways to correct it would put a level of skill behind it or actually make the auras a defining mechanic an example would be:
-when you run x aura you can now super punt
-when you run y aura you can now aoe slow
-when you run z aura you can now wounds debuff <-- already exists on chosen
There are several things that could be done. Make it so Knights/Chosens can't run 3 auras at all times. Lower the values by which their auras improve stats, etc. or lower the range across which they are applied.
But regardless the meta defined around cities is a weird time in warhammer. The game shouldn't be defined around 24man play but that's what a lot of these threads are trying to do. We have perfectly adequate classes in 6 man environment (not 6 v 6 but just a group of 6) arguing that they aren't adequate because in order to get the best gear or win while getting the best gear you have to setup a specific comp that you don't have a place in. You can't even apply the same argument to keeps/forts because in keeps and forts they're alternative ways to play. (you can postern guard, road gank, jail defend/attack, etc. Forts are less lenient but still applicable.
What??? Why wouldn't 24 man play be one of the factors by which the game is balanced on particularly when the endgame content is literally a 24v24 instance. It would be absurd to suggest otherwise. RvR/forts/cities (the main campaign mechanics in the game) all consist of a bunch 24 man groups. If you only balanced the game on isolated 6 man groups then you would run into some pretty significant problems very very fast. You can certainly apply the same argument that I'm making for IB in cities, as you can for RvR (forts/keeps/wb battles). IBs are even more useless in these environments than they are in city because they completely lack group utility which becomes more and more important as you increase the number of players involved in a battle. Just because there are alternative strategies for different situations in RvR doesn't mean group utility somehow becomes useless. Like I would not use afk'ing ("guarding") in front of the jail as an example of something to do class balance on.
In a city you basically blob up and defend middle and if you really want to get super hardcore about it the game play ultimately revolves around morale play. Wargrim stated that axe slam 2400 m4 is significant and it is but any tank who doesn't take ID wouldn't have a place, normally, most tanks need to rotate m2 (DB) and maybe whatever niche m3's other tanks have like BO's. I think not enough people have experienced with their speccable m4's during forts/cities to see whats truly possible on the m4 game, but thats my personal opinion. And I don't lead a guild so I wouldn't ever have a sizable group of individuals speccing into m4's as its a pretty arbitrary thing to do.
The gameplay used to solely revolve around morales, but that has now changed with the morale nerf patch (which imo was a good thing). In a good premade vs premade, you are not going to be able to wipe the other team solely from morales. As such, things like Axe Slam (which required IBs to give up a significant amount of utility to even run) essentially got an indirect nerf as you immediately get to the 2.4k morale cap. Also as you mentioned, it wasn't used that often anyways, because getting to m4 isn't always possible especially on the order side.
TLDR: IB isn't the issue the game currently has a lot of contributing issues that cause some classes to feel inadequate in some forms of play that are forced if you want to progress.
If Order was the more populated realm and struggled to get city pops, I guarantee you IBs would face similar issues to WH/WE, Engi/Magus, and SW. Just because other classes have more significant issues doesn't mean that IBs don't also lol. And to be honest, SW, WH/WE, IB/BG all suffer from the same problem, these classes don't have much aoe or aoe utility to warrant bringing them over more useful classes.