[IB] Masochistic class?

[Amdus]

I play both sides and I have to say, Order is in a terrible state of balance but has the population at the moment. Not a lot else going for it besides WP and Slayer being strong.

[X] doubt.

IB suffers from poor mobility and one viable build. IDK what Amdus is smoking but IB has one acceptable city build with punishing knock + AP tactic. That said, it is a pretty good class with a lot to bring to grp/oathfriend. So I don't think IB needs a buff, its just not as braindead as knight. What the IB buffs do probably need a rework with all the changes since live but thats about it.

Do you even comprehend a text when you read it? I have said that all 3 IB builds are useful, BG only has 1 useful build, because the only purpose of a BG is to be a guard bot+crimson death spammer and a situational punter.

Not a single one of the order classes needs a buff, this is just another thread filled with order biased pathological whiners, an extremely normal ocurrence for quite a long time now. You just complain for the sake of complaining despite having better tactics, abilities and more versatile classes. It's pathological.

Sure IC gets hit more but who cares so long as you win the instances and get more sov, which destro does overwhelmingly.

Who cares? What's the main aspect of this game? PvE? SC's? It's RvR isn't it? Funny how you brush this off so easily. And what makes you think that winning more instances equals to more sov? You do know that if you get a bag in most zones, at the end of the day you collect more crests than by winning stinky 1 star cities right?

Dark Elfs are the strongest faction in the game at the moment. DoK is untouchable, WE has every tool under the sun, Sorc ST burst is the go to scen and city DPS now, and BG has amazing synergy with melee ball. I do not feel bad for BG in the slightest.

Empire are the strongest faction in the game at the moment. WP is unkillable, WH has every tool under the sun and in most cases will kill you under a KD, BW burst is absolute insane, 2-3 million damage dealt in IC as an average, and Kotbs is the most useful and resilient tank on both factions.

Dwarfs are the strongest faction in the game at the moment. RP is untouchable, Slayers cut through anything like butter, Engis are OP and IB has synergy with the slayer train. I do not feel bad for IB in the slightest.

High elves are the strongest faction in the game at the moment. AM is unreachable and even if you reach them you're permanently at 0 AP and fully dotted ready to die, WL has insane damage, escape tools and a pet, SW stacking is currently all you need to def a fort due to their broken BHA, and SM is one of the most versatile tanks in the game, it can basically do the same as BG and BO but better, and also deals spirit damage. I don't feel bad for SM in the slightest.

Destro classes are generally better than Order and they exist in more balanced numbers. Doing weekend scens on destro is easy mode and on Order you need a premade before you even think about getting one win.

Forward proof on why destro is better. I want to see the math behind this bold statement. I want to see real numbers, not anecdotal evidence or your feelings towards it. Prove to us right now why is destro in a better state than order. Because as far as I know, order numbers in their abilities and tactics seem far superior than the destro ones. Want a few examples? here you go:

·IB:
-Tactic: [Sweet Revenge] 15% permanent crit if above 50 grudge.
-Ability: [Ancestor's fury] 75 base strength (Max 120 with full points) and 10% crit, also affects oathfriend.
-Tactic: [Greataxe mastery] 5% parry and 10% increased damage if you use 2handed weapon.
-Ability: [Watch an' learn] 75 base weapon skill (Max 120 with full points) and your oathfriend regains 25 AP everytime you hit something.
-Ability: [Stubborn as stone] You and your oathfriend get 236 base corporeal resistance for 20s, whenever you take magical damage only you gain 50% attack speed.
-Ability: [Stone breaker] Armor debuff based off grudges, max 800 armor debuff.

·BG:
-Tactic: [Filled with fury] 15% crit for 5s after spending hate (Only useful in Malice tree, you don't use any hate attack in Anguish unless you're a monstrous rending spammer)
-Tactic [Hastened Doom] Whenever you crit, you reduce the wounds by 75 base (120 max) and whenever you strike a target with murderous wrath or pitiless strike, increase your auto attack speed by 50% for 10s (Both effects).
-Ability: [Brutal Smash] 75 base strength (Max 120) and increases your willpower based off hatred, your dark protector also gets this effect for 20s.
-Ability: [Horrific wound] Armor debuff based off hatred, max 800 armor debuff.
-Ability: [Crimson death] 10% crit debuff.

REAL MATH CONCLUSSION. It's very important to note that this is pure math, not anecdotal bullshit.

IB Total stat gain:
-120 strength*
-25% crit
-10% increased damage (If you count the bonus meme tactic focused offense, make this 25% increased damage. If also using Bloodlord weapon, make it THIRTY PERCENT INCREASED DAMAGE.)
-75 weapon skill (BASE, if you put some points on the tree you get more, up to 120 at max points)
-50% attack speed

BG Total stat gain:
-120 strength
-15% crit (25% if they are debuffed with crimson death, meaning you must go malice to obtain this.)
-50% attack speed.
-Bonus meme tactic and only way to increase your damage: Focused offense 15% damage, make it 20% if you're using both the tactic and bloodlord weapon.


*Note that IB has 2 abilities that give strength based off how many points you have on the skilltree, whether you max out path of brotherhood or Vengeance you will always have 120 strength, the crit is not cumulative, it's the first ability on the vengeance tree, so it's always available to take once finishing tree of brotherhood, thus effectively always having 120 strength. BG will only have the full strength buff if he maxes out Anguish tree which almost no BG will, because the only viable one is Malice to become a guard bot and a crimson death spammer, which in any case it makes you choose between having crit on malice or be left out as a guard bot with a HOT based off hate that IB also has if you choose Anguish.

In any case I'm wasting my time. I have seen plenty enough order biased players making the most hilarious posts on this forums, and if there's something that I have learned is that you're unable to reason. You just come here to post X thing about how you feel and that's it, no amount of evidence or reasoning will make you see. You're experts at cherrypicking what's more suitable for your false and imaginary narratives in order to push whatever you want, and the sad part is that you have succeeded a few times with the chronic whining. It truly shocks me how shameless most of the biased orders are. It's like you don't want a challenging and a healthy game. You just want to smash us like roaches on every aspect of the game, you have no problem taking away skills and abilities from us and getting it for yourselves and even then you complain non-stop that destro is still OP. In ranked the Slayer train was unstoppable and WH's were absolutely OP. On top of that, IB is on a very good position. Same goes with scenarios. Order wins most scenarios in T4. Order has been on a daily double IC push for over 6 months, but you just simply dismiss this and brush it off complaining that destro is OP in cities. 4-5 W/L in cities isn't something to be concerned about, it's extremely balanced, as balanced as it can get. But playing with 180% AAO for over 6 months? Losing every single zone of the campaign? 10 mins left for IC to be ready to siege and order starting the last fort? 2-3 full guild order wb's chasing down loner destros trying to find their wb or forming one under 200% AAO?

I'm sure all of this has nothing to do with the majority of quitters coming from destro side. And look what's happening now, you're forced to play destro to even the things out because it has become too obvious and you realized that 1 star IC's won't give you sov fast enough. So you'll xrealm to destro for a while to create the illusion that everything is balanced so you don't get any nerfs. Truly shameless.

[nonfactor]

IB Total stat gain:
-120 strength*
-25% crit
-10% increased damage (If you count the bonus meme tactic focused offense, make this 25% increased damage. If also using Bloodlord weapon, make it THIRTY PERCENT INCREASED DAMAGE.)
-75 weapon skill (BASE, if you put some points on the tree you get more, up to 120 at max points)
-50% attack speed

BG Total stat gain:
-120 strength
-15% crit (25% if they are debuffed with crimson death, meaning you must go malice to obtain this.)
-50% attack speed.
-Bonus meme tactic and only way to increase your damage: Focused offense 15% damage, make it 20% if you're using both the tactic and bloodlord weapon.

big theorycrafting. First of all no one uses great axe mastery because we are starved for mastery points and you would know that if u actually played ib

>meaning you must go malice to obtain this

Why would u NOT go malice in the first place, its your main tree with all the good stuff

Crimson death is better because it applies to all enemies and deals damage to them at the same time while ib buff deals no damage and only affects your oathfriend.50% autoattack buff (the same tactic also reduces wounds with no mirror for ib) is applied automatically while attacking while IBs has to use an ability (which deals no damage) and get hit with a magic ability. Mind Killer has no CD while Inspiring Attack has 5s CD. Oathbound is the only thing that IB has over BG yet with combined with Ancestor's Fury you have to use those two abilities every 10s which leaves you with almost no time to use other abilities while BG can apply stuff through attacking which allows them to use other abilities more freely. The biggest culrpit however is BGs broken punt compared to IBs weakest single target punt in the game.

I am not order or destro based, I have every tank at +60rr on both sides. I can recognise that in smallscale KOTBS>Chosen the same way I can tell that BG>IB or that SM/BO are both equally useless in smallscale.

[NSKaneda]

Fortunately this game is neither based on nor is it balanced for small scale

[nonfactor]

Fortunately this game is neither based on nor is it balanced for small scale

Just because orvr is the main gamemode of this game it does not mean that the balance for duels/smallscale should be left untouched . For example, the Riposte tactic was nerfed even though that tactic was used solely in duels.

[NSKaneda]

Fortunately this game is neither based on nor is it balanced for small scale

Just because orvr is the main gamemode of this game it does not mean that the balance for duels/smallscale should be left untouched . For example, the Riposte tactic was nerfed even though that tactic was used solely in duels.

Riposte was used for melee ball pressure and it melted tanks way too fast, duels and ganking was just a side effect (even if that riposte build was old duelling build from KNorn)

I agree that WAR/ROR has many faces and can be enjoyed in different ways - orvr, 24v24, scs, 6v6, duels, roaming, premades and even dungeons and pve. It works as long as you accept game limitations and inherent design but when you start messing with intended scale whole thing unravels - there can be only one main balancing focus. Since Warhammer Online was designed around rvr that focus was and is large scale.

Should small scale balancing be left untouched? That depends on many factors, like how small scale changes will affect large scale when multiplied by *many players in same spot and enhanced by *lots of buffs and debuffs flying around at the same time. What is ok in large scale may not work in small one. What's not working in small scale can be OP in large one. There are many small scale games on the market, designed with just that in mind. There is only one massive rvr mmo. Which should be preserved

[ashton007]

Fortunately this game is neither based on nor is it balanced for small scale

Just because orvr is the main gamemode of this game it does not mean that the balance for duels/smallscale should be left untouched . For example, the Riposte tactic was nerfed even though that tactic was used solely in duels.

Riposte was used for melee ball pressure and it melted tanks way too fast, duels and ganking was just a side effect (even if that riposte build was old duelling build from KNorn)

I agree that WAR/ROR has many faces and can be enjoyed in different ways - orvr, 24v24, scs, 6v6, duels, roaming, premades and even dungeons and pve. It works as long as you accept game limitations and inherent design but when you start messing with intended scale whole thing unravels - there can be only one main balancing focus. Since Warhammer Online was designed around rvr that focus was and is large scale.

Should small scale balancing be left untouched? That depends on many factors, like how small scale changes will affect large scale when multiplied by *many players in same spot and enhanced by *lots of buffs and debuffs flying around at the same time. What is ok in large scale may not work in small one. What's not working in small scale can be OP in large one. There are many small scale games on the market, designed with just that in mind. There is only one massive rvr mmo. Which should be preserved

Ok but balancing around small scale does exist, remember the snb wp/dok nerfs?? What about the fact they added a shield to an original game class. I’m not bias either I can see classes and specs on both sides that needs work, however I only play tanks in fact I am a destro main, I have all 3 tanks in sov 81+, my IB is nearing 60 and I can tell you it’s rough. The grudge building is terrible in some fights, mostly solo I’ll admit. It’s not like I’m against changes for other classes man, I just can see clear as day the BG 2h spec is 3-4x better and has more use in warbands. I honestly believe every class/spec should be viable and good at best. iB is a great class it’s super fun but sometimes juggling the 10 sec buffs is more work than it’s worth. Especially when you’re already having to use so many globals and also trying to juggle guard, worry about punts, oathfriend, manage the grudges. IB is like driving a slow manual car while the BG is like driving full automatic with a turbo.

[NSKaneda]

Spoiler:

Just because orvr is the main gamemode of this game it does not mean that the balance for duels/smallscale should be left untouched . For example, the Riposte tactic was nerfed even though that tactic was used solely in duels.

Riposte was used for melee ball pressure and it melted tanks way too fast, duels and ganking was just a side effect (even if that riposte build was old duelling build from KNorn)

I agree that WAR/ROR has many faces and can be enjoyed in different ways - orvr, 24v24, scs, 6v6, duels, roaming, premades and even dungeons and pve. It works as long as you accept game limitations and inherent design but when you start messing with intended scale whole thing unravels - there can be only one main balancing focus. Since Warhammer Online was designed around rvr that focus was and is large scale.

Should small scale balancing be left untouched? That depends on many factors, like how small scale changes will affect large scale when multiplied by *many players in same spot and enhanced by *lots of buffs and debuffs flying around at the same time. What is ok in large scale may not work in small one. What's not working in small scale can be OP in large one. There are many small scale games on the market, designed with just that in mind. There is only one massive rvr mmo. Which should be preserved

Ok but balancing around small scale does exist, remember the snb wp/dok nerfs?? What about the fact they added a shield to an original game class. I’m not bias either I can see classes and specs on both sides that needs work, however I only play tanks in fact I am a destro main, I have all 3 tanks in sov 81+, my IB is nearing 60 and I can tell you it’s rough. The grudge building is terrible in some fights, mostly solo I’ll admit. It’s not like I’m against changes for other classes man, I just can see clear as day the BG 2h spec is 3-4x better and has more use in warbands. I honestly believe every class/spec should be viable and good at best. iB is a great class it’s super fun but sometimes juggling the 10 sec buffs is more work than it’s worth. Especially when you’re already having to use so many globals and also trying to juggle guard, worry about punts, oathfriend, manage the grudges. IB is like driving a slow manual car while the BG is like driving full automatic with a turbo.

Try this build - 4th tactic slot for either:

• Rising anger for solo roam

• Long reach for group play / zerg hunting / funnels

• Avalanche - because mobility problem is just an attitude

• Punishing knock when you don't feel like challenging shammies to a race

Also, you don't really need to keep all the buffs up all the time - Insp + guarded attack and veng strike last 20s, stubborn also 20s and W&L+Oathbound is always used in pair to buff your slayer...

Spoiler:

I'll pick that slow manual over automatic turbo anyday

[CountTalabecland]

Spoiler:

I play both sides and I have to say, Order is in a terrible state of balance but has the population at the moment. Not a lot else going for it besides WP and Slayer being strong.

[X] doubt.

IB suffers from poor mobility and one viable build. IDK what Amdus is smoking but IB has one acceptable city build with punishing knock + AP tactic. That said, it is a pretty good class with a lot to bring to grp/oathfriend. So I don't think IB needs a buff, its just not as braindead as knight. What the IB buffs do probably need a rework with all the changes since live but thats about it.

Do you even comprehend a text when you read it? I have said that all 3 IB builds are useful, BG only has 1 useful build, because the only purpose of a BG is to be a guard bot+crimson death spammer and a situational punter.

Not a single one of the order classes needs a buff, this is just another thread filled with order biased pathological whiners, an extremely normal ocurrence for quite a long time now. You just complain for the sake of complaining despite having better tactics, abilities and more versatile classes. It's pathological.

Sure IC gets hit more but who cares so long as you win the instances and get more sov, which destro does overwhelmingly.

Who cares? What's the main aspect of this game? PvE? SC's? It's RvR isn't it? Funny how you brush this off so easily. And what makes you think that winning more instances equals to more sov? You do know that if you get a bag in most zones, at the end of the day you collect more crests than by winning stinky 1 star cities right?

Dark Elfs are the strongest faction in the game at the moment. DoK is untouchable, WE has every tool under the sun, Sorc ST burst is the go to scen and city DPS now, and BG has amazing synergy with melee ball. I do not feel bad for BG in the slightest.

Empire are the strongest faction in the game at the moment. WP is unkillable, WH has every tool under the sun and in most cases will kill you under a KD, BW burst is absolute insane, 2-3 million damage dealt in IC as an average, and Kotbs is the most useful and resilient tank on both factions.

Dwarfs are the strongest faction in the game at the moment. RP is untouchable, Slayers cut through anything like butter, Engis are OP and IB has synergy with the slayer train. I do not feel bad for IB in the slightest.

High elves are the strongest faction in the game at the moment. AM is unreachable and even if you reach them you're permanently at 0 AP and fully dotted ready to die, WL has insane damage, escape tools and a pet, SW stacking is currently all you need to def a fort due to their broken BHA, and SM is one of the most versatile tanks in the game, it can basically do the same as BG and BO but better, and also deals spirit damage. I don't feel bad for SM in the slightest.

Destro classes are generally better than Order and they exist in more balanced numbers. Doing weekend scens on destro is easy mode and on Order you need a premade before you even think about getting one win.

Forward proof on why destro is better. I want to see the math behind this bold statement. I want to see real numbers, not anecdotal evidence or your feelings towards it. Prove to us right now why is destro in a better state than order. Because as far as I know, order numbers in their abilities and tactics seem far superior than the destro ones. Want a few examples? here you go:

·IB:
-Tactic: [Sweet Revenge] 15% permanent crit if above 50 grudge.
-Ability: [Ancestor's fury] 75 base strength (Max 120 with full points) and 10% crit, also affects oathfriend.
-Tactic: [Greataxe mastery] 5% parry and 10% increased damage if you use 2handed weapon.
-Ability: [Watch an' learn] 75 base weapon skill (Max 120 with full points) and your oathfriend regains 25 AP everytime you hit something.
-Ability: [Stubborn as stone] You and your oathfriend get 236 base corporeal resistance for 20s, whenever you take magical damage only you gain 50% attack speed.
-Ability: [Stone breaker] Armor debuff based off grudges, max 800 armor debuff.

·BG:
-Tactic: [Filled with fury] 15% crit for 5s after spending hate (Only useful in Malice tree, you don't use any hate attack in Anguish unless you're a monstrous rending spammer)
-Tactic [Hastened Doom] Whenever you crit, you reduce the wounds by 75 base (120 max) and whenever you strike a target with murderous wrath or pitiless strike, increase your auto attack speed by 50% for 10s (Both effects).
-Ability: [Brutal Smash] 75 base strength (Max 120) and increases your willpower based off hatred, your dark protector also gets this effect for 20s.
-Ability: [Horrific wound] Armor debuff based off hatred, max 800 armor debuff.
-Ability: [Crimson death] 10% crit debuff.

REAL MATH CONCLUSSION. It's very important to note that this is pure math, not anecdotal bullshit.

IB Total stat gain:
-120 strength*
-25% crit
-10% increased damage (If you count the bonus meme tactic focused offense, make this 25% increased damage. If also using Bloodlord weapon, make it THIRTY PERCENT INCREASED DAMAGE.)
-75 weapon skill (BASE, if you put some points on the tree you get more, up to 120 at max points)
-50% attack speed

BG Total stat gain:
-120 strength
-15% crit (25% if they are debuffed with crimson death, meaning you must go malice to obtain this.)
-50% attack speed.
-Bonus meme tactic and only way to increase your damage: Focused offense 15% damage, make it 20% if you're using both the tactic and bloodlord weapon.


*Note that IB has 2 abilities that give strength based off how many points you have on the skilltree, whether you max out path of brotherhood or Vengeance you will always have 120 strength, the crit is not cumulative, it's the first ability on the vengeance tree, so it's always available to take once finishing tree of brotherhood, thus effectively always having 120 strength. BG will only have the full strength buff if he maxes out Anguish tree which almost no BG will, because the only viable one is Malice to become a guard bot and a crimson death spammer, which in any case it makes you choose between having crit on malice or be left out as a guard bot with a HOT based off hate that IB also has if you choose Anguish.

In any case I'm wasting my time. I have seen plenty enough order biased players making the most hilarious posts on this forums, and if there's something that I have learned is that you're unable to reason. You just come here to post X thing about how you feel and that's it, no amount of evidence or reasoning will make you see. You're experts at cherrypicking what's more suitable for your false and imaginary narratives in order to push whatever you want, and the sad part is that you have succeeded a few times with the chronic whining. It truly shocks me how shameless most of the biased orders are. It's like you don't want a challenging and a healthy game. You just want to smash us like roaches on every aspect of the game, you have no problem taking away skills and abilities from us and getting it for yourselves and even then you complain non-stop that destro is still OP. In ranked the Slayer train was unstoppable and WH's were absolutely OP. On top of that, IB is on a very good position. Same goes with scenarios. Order wins most scenarios in T4. Order has been on a daily double IC push for over 6 months, but you just simply dismiss this and brush it off complaining that destro is OP in cities. 4-5 W/L in cities isn't something to be concerned about, it's extremely balanced, as balanced as it can get. But playing with 180% AAO for over 6 months? Losing every single zone of the campaign? 10 mins left for IC to be ready to siege and order starting the last fort? 2-3 full guild order wb's chasing down loner destros trying to find their wb or forming one under 200% AAO?

I'm sure all of this has nothing to do with the majority of quitters coming from destro side. And look what's happening now, you're forced to play destro to even the things out because it has become too obvious and you realized that 1 star IC's won't give you sov fast enough. So you'll xrealm to destro for a while to create the illusion that everything is balanced so you don't get any nerfs. Truly shameless.

TLDR. I'm not going to read your novel length garbage. I'm not biased and I'm not trying to secretly screw over destro by playing 4D x-realm chess or whatever you are accusing me off.

Destro is fine. Plenty of players during peak times. Less players on Destro just before EU prime time and during NA = off hours city pushes. Its nothing more than that and it certainly doesn't reflect balance. the pop will flip at some point ppl will be clutching their Order pearls instead. I guess its too hard for you to understand.

[Amdus]

TLDR. I'm not going to read your novel length garbage. I'm not biased and I'm not trying to secretly screw over destro by playing 4D x-realm chess or whatever you are accusing me off.

Destro is fine. Plenty of players during peak times. Less players on Destro just before EU prime time and during NA = off hours city pushes. Its nothing more than that and it certainly doesn't reflect balance. the pop will flip at some point ppl will be clutching their Order pearls instead. I guess its too hard for you to understand.

If you find that novel length garbage, I think I can imagine how hard it was for you to finish elementary school. Don't even bother, you're unable to discuss about anything, seen plenty from you to know that very well. On destro you're well known, but people removes the "o" in your nickname. Don't quote me again, have a good one.

[nonfactor]

Try this build - 4th tactic slot for either:

• Rising anger for solo roam

• Long reach for group play / zerg hunting / funnels

• Avalanche - because mobility problem is just an attitude

• Punishing knock when you don't feel like challenging shammies to a race

Also, you don't really need to keep all the buffs up all the time - Insp + guarded attack and veng strike last 20s, stubborn also 20s and W&L+Oathbound is always used in pair to buff your slayer...

Spoiler:

I'll pick that slow manual over automatic turbo anyday

This build is embarrassingly bad and dismisses your opinion entirely. Imagine not speccing Told Ya So!, it is like playing kotbs without the 15% more healing tactic.