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[Ironbreaker] The punt?

Ironbreaker, Engineer, Slayer, Runepriest

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nonfactor
Posts: 154

[Ironbreaker] The punt?

Post#1 » Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:55 pm

Punt/knockback is the most essential kill-securing tool in smallscale pvp; be it scenarios, 6v6, rankeds or small-man roaming. After playing BG, Chosen/Kotbs I could not fail to notice that IBs punt is extremely weak, the weakest single target punt in the game and it feels bad. Even if I preslow a target and then punt, the tank can come back after 1-2s. Ironbreaker is the tank whose default singlet target punt does not benefit from using 2h (Kotbs/chosen and BG get cooldown on their punts reduced by 10s and while I KNOW that IB's punt has 10s cooldown by default the range is tiny). What is even funnier that all of those punts give 30s immunity, even the super long bg punt.

This is not a proposal, my question is: why is not one complaining about it yet? On top of that, Ironbreaker does not make up in utility nor damage to make up for the lack of good punt. Sure, the class has 10% crit buff, 25% parry buff but I feel like IB is only there to "complete" KOTBS. I am aware that some people are not interested in smallscale but it is not like ironbreaker is a must-have orvr tank, especially after Whispering Wind buff.

I am very curious what IB mains have to say about this.

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Earthcake
Posts: 163

Re: [Ironbreaker] The punt?

Post#2 » Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:26 pm

IB isn't in a great place right now.

I rate my IB as being equal to my BO, which is an useless class according to many (they are wrong ofc but still, gives you an idea).

IB is the definition of working more to achieve less. Proplayers will tell you they own on IB you just need more skill than on other classes and if you cannot make it work, you suck, period.
The fact that they don't understand that the class limitations CANNOT be ignored no matter how good you are should immediatly tell you that they are far from being as good as they think they are.
Maybe by being the perfect player, you can reach let's say 90% of what another class can do with half your work. But why would you do that ? If you work harder you should achieve more, not less than the others.

If you want to read it, I wrote about IB main problem here :
https://cakesplan.wordpress.com/2021/05 ... -analysis/

Near the end you can see that BG have the time to perform twice as many actions as IB outside their "obligations", and when they do, they achieve more : better punt, better KD, better offensive help for your WHOLE warband, not only party...

nonfactor
Posts: 154

Re: [Ironbreaker] The punt?

Post#3 » Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:49 pm

Earthcake wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:26 pm
IB isn't in a great place right now.

I rate my IB as being equal to my BO, which is an useless class according to many (they are wrong ofc but still, gives you an idea).

IB is the definition of working more to achieve less. Proplayers will tell you they own on IB you just need more skill than on other classes and if you cannot make it work, you suck, period.
The fact that they don't understand that the class limitations CANNOT be ignored no matter how good you are should immediatly tell you that they are far from being as good as they think they are.
Maybe by being the perfect player, you can reach let's say 90% of what another class can do with half your work. But why would you do that ? If you work harder you should achieve more, not less than the others.

If you want to read it, I wrote about IB main problem here :
https://cakesplan.wordpress.com/2021/05 ... -analysis/

Near the end you can see that BG have the time to perform twice as many actions as IB outside their "obligations", and when they do, they achieve more : better punt, better KD, better offensive help for your WHOLE warband, not only party...
Yes I am familiar with your essay on time problem for IB and I totally agree with you, I have made a similar thread earlier on that issue. As a tank main I also think that IB is in a pretty bad state hence why I am surprised that there is not much talk about it but it seems like IBs are just not that vocal on the forums.

What I would love right now is a punt to be on the same level as kotbs/chosen and changing Oathbound and Ancestor's Fury duration 20s to make the class less frustrating but I do not think it's gonna happen anytime soon.

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Earthcake
Posts: 163

Re: [Ironbreaker] The punt?

Post#4 » Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:54 pm

nonfactor wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:49 pm

Yes I am familiar with your essay on time problem for IB and I totally agree with you, I have made a similar thread earlier on that issue. As a tank main I also think that IB is in a pretty bad state hence why I am surprised that there is not much talk about it but it seems like IBs are just not that vocal on the forums.
I think that most IBs are in BT and play IB for roleplay reasons, not "effectiveness".

Also, since everytime someone talks about a problem on IB he is told to "shut up and git gud", less and less people want to raise any concern.

j2low
Posts: 12

Re: [Ironbreaker] The punt?

Post#5 » Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:46 pm

1. increase punt with grudges !
2. 20sec on single target oathfriend buffs needed!

pretty plz :shock:

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CountTalabecland
Posts: 903

Re: [Ironbreaker] The punt?

Post#6 » Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:00 pm

Earthcake wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:54 pm
nonfactor wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:49 pm

Yes I am familiar with your essay on time problem for IB and I totally agree with you, I have made a similar thread earlier on that issue. As a tank main I also think that IB is in a pretty bad state hence why I am surprised that there is not much talk about it but it seems like IBs are just not that vocal on the forums.
I think that most IBs are in BT and play IB for roleplay reasons, not "effectiveness".

Also, since everytime someone talks about a problem on IB he is told to "shut up and git gud", less and less people want to raise any concern.
Considering that BT has like 6 ppl online most of the time with like 2 of those being IBs, this is some hyperbole. Seems like there are a few more IBs around than that.

And I don’t agree that we are “ineffective.” IB being a duo with Slayer is pretty damn strong. You bring an AoE snare and a KD so Slayer doesn’t have to take the time to do it. At the same time, all almost all of your buffs are helpful for them, and you get to feed them AP. The IB armordebuff is weak but it is there for helping armor pen. And finally together you have outgoing and incoming healdebuff

Especially for small scale or ranked scens, IB/SL is a key Order setup. Does the class have issues, yes. But is it useless? Absoutely not.
Brynnoth Goldenbeard (40/75) (IB) -- Rundin Fireheart (40/50) (RP) -- Ungrinn (40/40) (Engi)-- Bramm Bloodaxe (40/83) (Slayer) and a few Empire characters here or there, maybe even an elf.

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zulnam
Posts: 609

Re: [Ironbreaker] The punt?

Post#7 » Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:46 pm

The fact that you played BG, IB, Knight and Chosen and only came away with "well IB punt is a bit sh*t innit" is staggering.

The class that can:
- single target buff strength, toughness, armor, crit chance, parry chance, AP pump and resistance
- while also buffing all that for itself + WS and 50% autoattack speed
- passively act as group AP pump
- get access to two root/snare breakers
- do all that in both SnB and 2H spec
- have incoming damage reduced by 15% virtually at all times
- while also having armor tactic and KD timer reduction by 50% tactic
- and a tactic giving an aoe cone punt which is the only one of it's kind on any tank
- and a heal which works both for SnB and 2H
- and a KD with an dot doing more than 600 damage in FIVE seconds

needs a bit of a fixxer-upper does it?

Keep asking for balance, here's how it will probably look:
Ironbreaker:
- removed autoattack speed buff from Stubborn as Stone
- Ancestor's Fury no longer buffs strength
- Seasoned Veteran: this effect can only trigger once every 10 seconds.
- Away with Ye: increased punt range by 20%.
SW, Kotbs, IB, Slayer, Mara, SH, BG

Ostabenny
Posts: 34

Re: [Ironbreaker] The punt?

Post#8 » Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:49 pm

The IB isn’t useless, but the fact is you can take almost any part of its kit and find a better version of that skill on destro, or the same skill but with less restrictions.

Take the outgoing heal debuff for example, which requires a tactic for both BG and IB. The BG doesn’t have a cooldown and the IB has a 5 sec cooldown. Fkin why. Even the BGs skill trees are planned better.

The class is fun, but you are just a Swiss Army knife that can do lots of things, but nothing done well and rarely do you have time to do it. Most of the IBs I speak to enjoy the class right up until endgame and then eventually put it away to play something with more impact. I love the IB, but it’s in dire need of the QoL changes.

We’ve discussed this to death, with Cake writing a great thesis on it. Hopefully the next round of balance can include IB.

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nonfactor
Posts: 154

Re: [Ironbreaker] The punt?

Post#9 » Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:45 am

zulnam wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:46 pm
The fact that you played BG, IB, Knight and Chosen and only came away with "well IB punt is a bit sh*t innit" is staggering.
That is a textbook strawman.
zulnam wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:46 pm
50% autoattack speed
which bg gets passively without having to waste a gcd and getting hit by a magic attack
zulnam wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:46 pm
get access to two root/snare breakers
No one specs Avenging the Debt.
zulnam wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:46 pm
have incoming damage reduced by 15% virtually at all times
shield only so it does not apply to smallscale
zulnam wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:46 pm
while also having armor tactic and KD timer reduction by 50% tactic
only used by low lvl ibs to make up for bad gear
zulnam wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:46 pm
and a tactic giving an aoe cone punt which is the only one of it's kind on any tank
Not used in smallscale.
zulnam wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:46 pm
and a heal which works both for SnB and 2H
Grumble N Mutter? Do you really spec that for smallscale?
zulnam wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:46 pm
and a KD with an dot doing more than 600 damage in FIVE seconds
Every sane IB would trade that puny damage for a mirror of BG's punt.
zulnam wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:46 pm
single target buff strength, toughness, armor,
useless because it doesnt stack with pots and other buffs
zulnam wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:46 pm
resistance
only corporeal
zulnam wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:46 pm
crit chance, parry chance, AP pump
Which is nice of course but what I said that these three things do not make up, in my opinion, for the lack of a proper punt which is a number one tool for making plays in smallscale. Most kills are done by punting enemy tanks thus testing their reaction time to switch guard. This is why BO and SM are deemed lesser tanks because even though they do very good damage and offer some utility it is all pointless if you can't punt enemy tanks. You list a lot of tools and one cannot possibly use them all in a single build so it sounds like you are overselling the class, I could make a list of abilities like you did for every class and make it good on paper but in practise IB is just GCD starved short punted inferior version of BG that is overshadowed by KOTBS.
CountTalabecland wrote:
Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:00 pm
Considering that BT has like 6 ppl online most of the time with like 2 of those being IBs, this is some hyperbole. Seems like there are a few more IBs around than that.

And I don’t agree that we are “ineffective.” IB being a duo with Slayer is pretty damn strong. You bring an AoE snare and a KD so Slayer doesn’t have to take the time to do it. At the same time, all almost all of your buffs are helpful for them, and you get to feed them AP. The IB armordebuff is weak but it is there for helping armor pen. And finally together you have outgoing and incoming healdebuff

Especially for small scale or ranked scens, IB/SL is a key Order setup. Does the class have issues, yes. But is it useless? Absoutely not.
I mean no one here has said that IB is useless, I don't know where you guys are getting this from. It is true that I would rather want IB in a duo but I am talking about smallscale of 3-6 and in a party of 6 KOTBS can do much more than IB with much less effort (15% more healing, ap drain/gain, buffs ALL resists not just 1 kind, triple slow, 10% more crit for aoe ALL INFLICTED, wounds reduction, long range punt, damaging M3). Naturally running two kotbs would be pointless so this is where ib comes in, to complete kotbs.

Ostabenny
Posts: 34

Re: [Ironbreaker] The punt?

Post#10 » Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:45 am

Making all our buffs 20 seconds is probably the best first step that doesn’t influence balance too much but makes it more fun to play.

Tbh I don’t think the punt needs changing. It serves its purpose and I like some classes having unique flavour, it’s cool that the BG and Kotbs can have a super punt that is special to them. Our special thing is being able to spec into aoe punt.

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