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[Kotbs] Lower damage output justification (ex Slice Through Tactic discussion)

Knight of the Blazing Sun, Bright Wizard, Witch Hunter, Warrior Priest
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detrap
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Re: [Kotbs] Lower damage output justification (ex Slice Through Tactic discussion)

Post#41 » Thu May 13, 2021 10:12 pm

Klod91 wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 2:00 pm
detrap wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 7:50 am You go down the tree and pick up Overpowering Swing, then realise the synergy between SI and Arcing Swing (AS).
Then realise that you can't even hit with SI or AS because you have 400 str and every attack gets defended against?
Not to mention you can't get through the weakest absorb shield for your control abilities.


That's why I said you flank behind the blob, pop Staggering Impact and then Arcing Swing to make sure you hit your targets, both debuffs still work against absorb shields because it doesn't rely on crit. I sometimes run 200-300 strength and have minimal issues apply those debuffs...

Well before a morale drop or channel is called, you time your run to get behind the blob to use AS and SI, since AS works off a 180 degree arc and is less likely to be defended against after you drop SI and are already behind enemy targets.
Knight 8x - IB 8x - SM 8x / Chosen 3x - BO 4x - BG 5x

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Rapzel
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Re: [Kotbs] Slice Through dmg penalty discussion

Post#42 » Fri May 14, 2021 1:32 am

Klod91 wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 3:23 pm
detrap wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 2:15 pm Considering your entire warband (including adjacent warbands) can do significantly more damage in your radius, than any other tank on order, the lack of damage comparable to other tanks is somewhat justifiable.
I think "significantly" is an exaggeration. Besides, you only need 1 Kotbs for that.


Foomy44 wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 2:27 pm How does having access to 1 tactic (which literally increases damage in aoe situations) prove their damage is lower thsn other tanks? There's a whole lot more factors there than just this.
I must admit, my goal was to transition this topic into Kotbs' general dmg output discussion.
I should have probably just started with that.


Foomy44 wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 2:27 pm Yes, literally everyone would say this.
First, this is not necessarily true. I've heard people claim the opposite.
Second, when it comes to "everyone" people often just repeat what they heard, without making their own research.

Let's look at Chosen, he also provides auras, but also deals more dmg. What does Kotbs do better than Chosen to justify overall lower dmg output?


Spoiler:
I've renamed the topic since I've originally aimed to go into general dmg output discussion anyway.
So I'll take it from the start, and I interpret the thread as "I want to do more damage" and I there for assume that you're looking at this from a 2h
perspective, as no one cares about how much damage a SnB tank does, otherwise everyone would search for IB for city WBs.

The age old question of utility vs. damage

Chosen doesn't provide AoE snare.
Chosen with a 2h doesn't provide 10% crit.
Chosen doesn't provide +15% healing.
Chosen with a 2h doesn't have access to a armor buff (that also gives AP).
Chosen with a 2h doesn't have access to a secondary interrupt.
Chosen doesn't have a 1200 m3 drop.

What does Chosen get instead?
Well AP drain, single target. (Doesn't need to spec it which no sane KotBS will ever do)
+15% crit from tactic.
Spirit damage.
25% inc. heal debuff aura.
25% parry.
10% crit reduction for group mates (and 10% for self if you spend two tactics for it I.E to counter one tactic from the KotBS you need to spend 2 tactics on the chosen)

in theory we could bring up KotBS 25% outgoing, because neither heal debuff auras are worth it imho in a proper setup, it's if you run WB, and then KotBS outshines in most other aspects except moral self pump and parry.
I have a BiS 2h Chosen, I still feel more useful on my sh*t geared KotBS in a group.

Sure there's a difference in damage but if you struggle on KotBS you will struggle more on Chosen.

Rapzel
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Re: [Kotbs] Lower damage output justification (ex Slice Through Tactic discussion)

Post#43 » Fri May 14, 2021 1:41 am

Klod91 wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 2:00 pm
detrap wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 7:50 am You go down the tree and pick up Overpowering Swing, then realise the synergy between SI and Arcing Swing (AS).
Then realise that you can't even hit with SI or AS because you have 400 str and every attack gets defended against?
Not to mention you can't get through the weakest absorb shield for your control abilities.


Thanks!
Str affects parry strike through very little. Every tank struggles with getting parried a lot hitting someone in the front.
You will see good players always looking to outmaneuver and getting behind their target, and keep their front to you.

And no you don't ever get Staggering Impact, because you will either lose KD or Focused Mending.

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detrap
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Re: [Kotbs] Lower damage output justification (ex Slice Through Tactic discussion)

Post#44 » Fri May 14, 2021 1:57 am

Rapzel wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 1:41 am And no you don't ever get Staggering Impact, because you will either lose KD or Focused Mending.

SM's and IB's can easily get access their knockdowns without having to sacrifice such an important ability for the dps in your warband.

-10% block primary defensive check plus a further -10% disrupt/parry/dodge from the secondary defensive check really helps your dps.

I don't think 8 tanks in the entire warband all need a knockdown, especially in ORvR being immunity paradise (and Heaven's Fury is probably more useful). It's a tiny price to pay to playing the 2h Knight as intended and having a stronger wounds debuff for AoE bombing.

It's sad to see players think it's not worth taking and then question their role as 2h in warbands because of the lack of any kind of contribution apart from auras and cc.
Knight 8x - IB 8x - SM 8x / Chosen 3x - BO 4x - BG 5x

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mytreds
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Re: [Kotbs] Lower damage output justification (ex Slice Through Tactic discussion)

Post#45 » Fri May 14, 2021 4:28 am

nonfactor wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 8:33 am
arorwne wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 7:05 am Yes, that's exactly the elephant in the room. Sure, both Knight and Chosen bring a lot to the group(arguably less than they used to because other tanks got better at this), but answer this:

Can or Will you be grouped all the time? How about 50% of time?
imagine playing a tank not in a group omegalul
To be fair, I know several tank mains that prefer to roam solo in lakes and SCs. However they are exceptions not the rule. They know their class forwards and backwards and have the gear to make it work.

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sharpblader
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Re: [Kotbs] Lower damage output justification (ex Slice Through Tactic discussion)

Post#46 » Fri May 14, 2021 10:32 am

Spoiler:
Klod91 wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 2:19 pm How often do you see organized WBs running with 2h knights(outside of ST group in City)? How often with 2h BGs?

I would say that if there is 50 knights running around in Praag, 1 of them will be 2h. Probably Vont or Triperiic, because I haven't seen them ever with snb.

What makes a 2h knight less desirable in WB play compared to other tanks? Is it just the lack of survivability?
So not only do you not deal any dmg, you are also squishier. I think someone above mentioned that you should aim at staying alive and providing auras for your group. It seems ironic.

I didn't reply to every post, but it seems to me that people think that I want to be dps tank or something. The aim is to figure out whether lower damage output is made up for by other benefits of the class.
People repeat over and over that Kotbs is the best tank, as if other tanks don't bring anything to the table. Auras this, auras that. "Yeah, but you have +15% healing" Do other classes not have anything that is really usefull for the warband? While also dishing out more damage.
Hi, Ill try to give a more insightful reasoning behind Knight damage in its current state based on my personal experience.

Historically, 2h knight depended on Runefang (RF) procs on parry for huge str boosts to do damage. Keeping RF up was very easy and combined with M2 Emperor's Champion gave knights an additional 240 str for 30 seconds. Hence, the lower base damage was justified as you could achieve high damage windows while maintaining high defense stats.

Now, RF no longer gives strength. Emp. Champ nerfed to 15 seconds and never taken in serious group play because Distracting Bellow is too good to pass on. While damage is still on the lower side.

Its easier to build against physical damage compared to magical damage. After the removal of mighty soul, majority of knight damage is physical and its hard to stack WS without sacrificing toughness and wounds. To help this, devs made RF give WS, but since it is no longer baseline, it has to be specced high into the glory tree. Which will result in either losing stun, or losing Overpowering Swing.

Hence, given the current meta, any boost to the knight base damage might be OP given how much "easy" and passive utility they bring compared to other 2h tanks. Strong reflect damage might also be a reason why.

Personally, I would prefer changes where if a knight specs for damage to be at par with other 2h tanks, they lose the ability to have strong utility. But its easier said than done because it might shift the strong SnB meta, which imo is worth looking at.

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Bozzax
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Re: [Kotbs] Lower damage output justification (ex Slice Through Tactic discussion)

Post#47 » Fri May 14, 2021 5:34 pm

SnB meta? Haven’t seen a good SnB knight since live. Back then a good SnB duo could control the destro zerg.

(all good kniggit play 2h for the punts)
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

Rapzel
Posts: 390

Re: [Kotbs] Lower damage output justification (ex Slice Through Tactic discussion)

Post#48 » Fri May 14, 2021 6:05 pm

detrap wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 1:57 am
Rapzel wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 1:41 am And no you don't ever get Staggering Impact, because you will either lose KD or Focused Mending.

SM's and IB's can easily get access their knockdowns without having to sacrifice such an important ability for the dps in your warband.

-10% block primary defensive check plus a further -10% disrupt/parry/dodge from the secondary defensive check really helps your dps.

I don't think 8 tanks in the entire warband all need a knockdown, especially in ORvR being immunity paradise (and Heaven's Fury is probably more useful). It's a tiny price to pay to playing the 2h Knight as intended and having a stronger wounds debuff for AoE bombing.

It's sad to see players think it's not worth taking and then question their role as 2h in warbands because of the lack of any kind of contribution apart from auras and cc.
It's not an important ability, it's bad compared to the alternatives.

In a ST party you're the kd + interrupt + wounds debuff preventing the target to escape.
IB gives up either single target damage or AoE snare to get their 2H KD.
For SM it's whispering winds or a lot of the DPS in your left tree (yea you can get ether dance and ww, but you'll lose great weapon mastery and balanced accuracy, or you get one of those and lose ether dance), this applies applies to all tanks, you have to choose between damage or utility.
This is pretty much a blessing for KotBS as it doesn't have the option to try and go for damage but is based upon pure utility making it the most solid tank archetype in the game.

Imagine seeing these types of threads from RP and Zealots whining about how bad their damage is compared to AM/Shaman.

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detrap
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Re: [Kotbs] Lower damage output justification (ex Slice Through Tactic discussion)

Post#49 » Fri May 14, 2021 7:56 pm

Rapzel wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 6:05 pm
detrap wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 1:57 am
Rapzel wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 1:41 am And no you don't ever get Staggering Impact, because you will either lose KD or Focused Mending.

SM's and IB's can easily get access their knockdowns without having to sacrifice such an important ability for the dps in your warband.

-10% block primary defensive check plus a further -10% disrupt/parry/dodge from the secondary defensive check really helps your dps.

I don't think 8 tanks in the entire warband all need a knockdown, especially in ORvR being immunity paradise (and Heaven's Fury is probably more useful). It's a tiny price to pay to playing the 2h Knight as intended and having a stronger wounds debuff for AoE bombing.

It's sad to see players think it's not worth taking and then question their role as 2h in warbands because of the lack of any kind of contribution apart from auras and cc.
It's not an important ability, it's bad compared to the alternatives.

In a ST party you're the kd + interrupt + wounds debuff preventing the target to escape.
IB gives up either single target damage or AoE snare to get their 2H KD.
For SM it's whispering winds or a lot of the DPS in your left tree (yea you can get ether dance and ww, but you'll lose great weapon mastery and balanced accuracy, or you get one of those and lose ether dance), this applies applies to all tanks, you have to choose between damage or utility.
This is pretty much a blessing for KotBS as it doesn't have the option to try and go for damage but is based upon pure utility making it the most solid tank archetype in the game.

Imagine seeing these types of threads from RP and Zealots whining about how bad their damage is compared to AM/Shaman.
Yes its highly optional for ST party, otherwise you are gimping your 2h spec for the warband by only being able to do half your job to help the dps max their damage output. You also make blackguards look like a better class by not running it.
Knight 8x - IB 8x - SM 8x / Chosen 3x - BO 4x - BG 5x

Rapzel
Posts: 390

Re: [Kotbs] Lower damage output justification (ex Slice Through Tactic discussion)

Post#50 » Sat May 15, 2021 3:52 pm

detrap wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 7:56 pm
Rapzel wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 6:05 pm
detrap wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 1:57 am


SM's and IB's can easily get access their knockdowns without having to sacrifice such an important ability for the dps in your warband.

-10% block primary defensive check plus a further -10% disrupt/parry/dodge from the secondary defensive check really helps your dps.

I don't think 8 tanks in the entire warband all need a knockdown, especially in ORvR being immunity paradise (and Heaven's Fury is probably more useful). It's a tiny price to pay to playing the 2h Knight as intended and having a stronger wounds debuff for AoE bombing.

It's sad to see players think it's not worth taking and then question their role as 2h in warbands because of the lack of any kind of contribution apart from auras and cc.
It's not an important ability, it's bad compared to the alternatives.

In a ST party you're the kd + interrupt + wounds debuff preventing the target to escape.
IB gives up either single target damage or AoE snare to get their 2H KD.
For SM it's whispering winds or a lot of the DPS in your left tree (yea you can get ether dance and ww, but you'll lose great weapon mastery and balanced accuracy, or you get one of those and lose ether dance), this applies applies to all tanks, you have to choose between damage or utility.
This is pretty much a blessing for KotBS as it doesn't have the option to try and go for damage but is based upon pure utility making it the most solid tank archetype in the game.

Imagine seeing these types of threads from RP and Zealots whining about how bad their damage is compared to AM/Shaman.
Yes its highly optional for ST party, otherwise you are gimping your 2h spec for the warband by only being able to do half your job to help the dps max their damage output. You also make blackguards look like a better class by not running it.
Yea I forgot that Black guard has:
Several AoE ±stat boosts.
15% heal increase to everyone in your group, that stacks with Blessing of Chaos.

As a side note before you go on your BG is OP rampage, it removes 10% parry and block, while SI removes 10% of all defenses.

We bringing up BO next because BO and KotBS both have a 1200 m3?

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