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[Warrior Priest] - Grace

Knight of the Blazing Sun, Bright Wizard, Witch Hunter, Warrior Priest
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freshour
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Re: [Warrior Priest] - Grace

Post#461 » Thu Feb 18, 2016 6:07 pm

Started a thread but moving it to here as I thought this one was getting shut down, but since it's not I'll post here! :)

Okay, let's start off with saying I am not posting anything about DoKs and what they can do vs what I can do. I really don't care about them at all (order bias) and have been spending quite a lot of time to come up with a viable melee healer and honestly I am really close. I am averaging around 40-80k damage a game and putting out between 60-100k heals.

So I am going grace, and a lot of it is pretty intuitive. Vision for parry, fist for str, divine assault to burst heal, constantly spamming cleanse so I don't get roasted as I am in the front line. Tactics I am battling with are grace of sigmar, fanaticism (10% crit parry) and I've been switching between a lot of others for this last one. Most use the 25% inc damage, and I do too. I tried the increase damage aura, but slowly learned auras don't like to proc off damage that isn't "direct" damage. I loved leading the prayer but I think a lot of it was a placebo effect. But now I'm kinda stuck. Can't really get my DPS up too much as I had to go all out crit reduction with renown to stay alive as our biggest problem is dying lol. Talismans are mixed with strength and wounds to go with the wounds buff (yes it can be dispelled but might as well take it). I tried out Soulfire but not proccing any auras it just gave me the illusion of increased damage as its not enough AOE to really do anything but pad the scoreboard. I've debated going more grace but if I lose sigmars grace then I lose the biggest reason to be a "melee healer"

The armor buff has been mentioned as huge for squishies regardless of me not being salvation and I understand that argument as well. So I'm not really sure if the healing aura needs an increase maybe just for the WP or maybe the damage aura does. I'm not certain if the damage aura can add to the heal from sigmars radiance but if it does great if it doesn't it would add to putting us more in line with salvation. I dont want to be OP like salvation. I played that spec and it's amazing. I want Melee Healer to work and not be a gimp and Az has shared his view on the matter.

So in replying to this thread, I will ask that you guys keep it constructive. All tips are appreciated. And possible tweaks to not dip Grace into the OP pool with several other specs that I'm sure in time will be fixed. I know we have like 3-5 good Grace WPs and it seems that a very high skill cap is involved to making it be worth while. So I'm not asking to bring that skill cap down, but how can we make those who achieve it be rewarded rather than almost feeling less useless? Also any build/gear ideas please


Thank you!
- Dawm

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ThePollie
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Posts: 411

Re: [Warrior Priest] - Grace

Post#462 » Thu Feb 18, 2016 6:40 pm

My current build is full Duelist with armour talismans, strength/disrupt jewelry, Futile Strikes and Cleansing Wind with Renown. Divine Fury/Fanaticism/Grace of Sigmar for tactics. Sigmar's Grace, Sigmar's Vision and the aforementioned tactic in Mastery.

Morales are Divine Favor/Divine Aegis, Focused Mind/Rampaging Siphon, Divine Protection.

Try to keep Sigmar's Fist and Sigmar's Vision up, use Radiance as a filler heal and Divine Assault when someone starts getting seriously hurt. Pre-HoT with Healing Hand, but do not rely on it. It will suck, immensely. Pre-HoT with it if possible, but don't skip a Radiance for the sake of reapplying it unless it's clearly safe to. Skip Fist and Vision if necessary, neither make a huge difference and healing is a priority.

Always get behind a target whenever possible, negating parries and blocks is vital to maintaining any sort of healing. Get Buffhead, set it to track the Guard skills. Avoid Guarded targets if possible, but a lot of times it isn't. You can't risk attacking the unguarded back-line, you'll just be vaporized. Settle for Guarded targets, hope for some RNG with their tank missing parries/blocks on guard damage.

Detaunt their backline, primarily Sorcerers and Magus. Between the burst damage and overwhelming supply of DoTs, they'll likely be most of the damage you take. Try and get as many as you can with the AoE detaunt. When you start being DoT'd up a lot more than you're comfortable with, break off for a moment. Use Cleansing Wind if you don't think you can either survive the DoTs or an ally can survive you being out of action for that long.

Purify is crap, don't get confident because you can cleanse every 5 seconds. You can easily get ten times as many DoTs as you cleanse.

Use Divine Favor on wounded targets being focused if you slotted it. If you took Divine Aegis, save it for when you get trained by melee or a Squig Herder. Bail out when you use it, the duration is pathetic and is best used to minimize damage while you back out of range and find help. Focused Mind is good for negating Disarms and snares, to ensure you aren't either disabled or escape made impossible. Rampaging Siphon is capable of godly healing levels, fantastic for clutch moments when buried in the enemy mob. Debatable if it's worth giving up 10 seconds of immunities to a lot of CC for the sake of a group-wide 4300 heal. Save Divine Protection for when you/someone gets trained by melee.

If you run Focused Mind, try and save it for as long as possible. If a Sorcerer overextends, you can harass them and use Focused Mind to ensure they can't simply disarm you. Until we have T4 and Vow of Silence comes into play, you're out of luck with Magus and Zealots. Zealots can Embrace the Warp and laugh your damage off long enough for their team to smash you, Magus can kite you easily and survive long enough to out-last Focused Mind to shut you down.

Retreat before you're at risk of being killed. Warrior priests have no stock in Escapism.INC, if you get trained your only option is either Focused Mind or dragging yourself at half-speed and praying your team is Johnny on the spot with the healing and Guard. It takes a bit of practice to recognize when you're about to be boxed up, but we don't have the luxury of the mistake.

Also remember any healing beats no healing. If you have to, wail on a Chosen for a bit. Better to kick out 400 heal per global on a target that can never kill you than to risk virtually sure-fire death for the sake of upping that to 580.

And don't make the mistake of feeling threatening. I promise you, unless your team helps you or their team doesn't intervene, you're not going to kill anyone by yourself. Even a HoT will mitigate a lot of your damage, stalling you out more than long enough for your target to either evade you or get help to properly put you down. Don't make the mistake of thinking an overextended healer is suddenly a good target. Any good healer will detaunt you and shrug off the damage without effort. The only thing you'll do is make yourself a target for everyone within a hundred feet.

Don't underestimate Judgement, and remember you have Smite to get back Righteous Fury in a hurry.

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th3gatekeeper
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Re: [Warrior Priest] - Grace

Post#463 » Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:34 pm

Azarael wrote:I'm especially interested in seeing greater Grace viability be linked into a reduction in the power of the backliners, to bring WP and DoK to what they're meant to be.
Well if this is the goal here... Seems simple to me:

WPs "Guilty Soul" needs to work like the "Curse of Khaine" tactic. That would do some of what you are looking for. One of the BIGGEST issues with Grace seems to be the lack of ability to hit anyone. So either Grace needs some sort of debuff OR a tactic like SMs "Poised Attacks" Where attacks under certain conditions are harder to defend.

DoKs dont feel this as much because "Warding Strike" reduces enemy chance to parry while the equivalent WP ability "Sigmar's Vision" buffs an allies parry %. But the issue there is it doesnt really help the WP as he needs to hit something to heal (Grace).


So here is an interesting multi class proposal:

1) Sigmar's Vision changed from "increasing their chance to parry 10%" TO "Increasing their Wounds by 50".

2) Remove Sigmar's Grace and replace it with...... "Staggering Impact" (Call it Sigmar's Fury or something) from the KOTBS Conquest Tree (Allowing them to debuff enemy defend % - allowing Grace to actually HIT them.

3) Then to accomplish the above goal, Guilty Soul should (IMO) be a mirror of Curse of Khaine. Reduces healing 50% for 5 seconds after a crit.

Then for KOTBS - you can keep the title "Staggering Impact" and just change it so its an AoE for ~160 damage that cannot be defended against.

I understand you dont want total mimics, however its pretty clear that in NOT mimicing, its causing a pretty big disconnect in balance.

Overall through the BIG issue is that WPs cant keep themselves up, because they need to hit and deal damage to heal, but they cant hit when everyone stacks parry/block and unlike their counter part (DoK) they dont have a way to debuff Parry/Block in order to hit them.
Sulfuras - Knight
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ThePollie
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Re: [Warrior Priest] - Grace

Post#464 » Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:42 pm

th3gatekeeper wrote:So here is an interesting multi class proposal:

1) Sigmar's Vision changed from "increasing their chance to parry 10%" TO "Increasing their Wounds by 50".

Sigmar's Grace. And now not only do DoKs out DPS us by debuffing enemy parry, they now have more parry than we do, to boot. Next.

2) Remove Sigmar's Grace and replace it with...... "Staggering Impact" (Call it Sigmar's Fury or something) from the KOTBS Conquest Tree (Allowing them to debuff enemy defend % - allowing Grace to actually HIT them.

So we trade 74 wounds and 10% parry for 50 wounds and 10% parry strikethrough. I'd rather no.

3) Then to accomplish the above goal, Guilty Soul should (IMO) be a mirror of Curse of Khaine. Reduces healing 50% for 5 seconds after a crit.

We already have a heal-debuff. It just needs a buff and it will be fine.

Then for KOTBS - you can keep the title "Staggering Impact" and just change it so its an AoE for ~160 damage that cannot be defended against.

I understand you dont want total mimics, however its pretty clear that in NOT mimicing, its causing a pretty big disconnect in balance.

Overall through the BIG issue is that WPs cant keep themselves up, because they need to hit and deal damage to heal, but they cant hit when everyone stacks parry/block and unlike their counter part (DoK) they dont have a way to debuff Parry/Block in order to hit them.

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th3gatekeeper
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Re: [Warrior Priest] - Grace

Post#465 » Tue Feb 23, 2016 7:58 pm

ThePollie wrote:
Sigmar's Grace. And now not only do DoKs out DPS us by debuffing enemy parry, they now have more parry than we do, to boot. Next.

So we trade 74 wounds and 10% parry for 50 wounds and 10% parry strikethrough. I'd rather no.

We already have a heal-debuff. It just needs a buff and it will be fine.
Just a few IDEAS.

Point #1 - Just trying to combine the tier 3 and tier 1 abilities to make room for a better capstone that addresses the issues.

Point #2 - Not just parry but also block strikethrough... Which is HUGE. Having more HP and Parry honestly wont help you much if you cant hit someone to heal.... You could have 2k more HP (instead of 740) and it still wouldnt matter. What matters is being about to dish out damage, to heal a % of that damage. Heck, make the wounds buff (that replaces parry) the same @ 74 for 15 seconds. So you keep your wounds, but trade 10% parry for 10% defense strikethrough PLUS its an AoE DoT...

Point #3 - Ok so buff "Absence of Faith" up to 50% and then that solves that issue without a rework at all.
Sulfuras - Knight
Viskag - Chosen
Ashkandi - Swordmaster
Syzzle - Bright Wizard
Curz - Marauder
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freshour
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Re: [Warrior Priest] - Grace

Post#466 » Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:02 pm

1/2 Our Wounds buff gets stripped a lot. I'm not sure if you still play but I am on doing SCs for 2-3 hours every single day. And party is great but we get parried a ton. Divine assault can be rendered totally useless in some cases. Especially with NA ping, getting behind a target to negate it almost impossible vs good players. The way the classes are designed we will never out DPS a DoK and I don't care if you we do. But we do not heal if we don't hit. I'm curious if you would be willing to join a few of our SC premades on your WP to show me that you are actually doing decent healing. Otherwise all of your counters to his points are pretty irrelevant.

3. Our heal debuff does need increased. I would gladly swap a tactic out to get a 50% heal debuff when we crit someone as it is arguable the most OP heal debuff in the game. You don't even need good damage to kill someone with a heal debuff on them. Shadow warrior skirm spec can show you that. Not to mention ours has a 20 second cool down and surely would be cleansed almost immediately.

Az wants us to be a viable spec. It's melee healer not DPS. Damage went way up, and our heals only slightly increased with no improvement on how to actually hit the target to heal them. I do not want us to deal insane damage as everyone gets so butt hurt by a melee WP being good. If I stand in the front line and heal, it is a huge risk. The rewards in doing so should show that risk. Sigmars heal should be increased by an easy 20-30% and divine assault should have some major strike through as it is parried a very drastic amount. Also we have to hit on front liners just to put out some heals for the group in most cases and they are usually all guarded making our ability to heal even less.

Anyone who afraid of WP throwing out 200k damage and 200k heals can relax. We aren't DoKs but we are "Doc"tors in that we are healers and any healer balsy enough to put the book down and play the class as intended should be rewarded as such. The increase in skill from back line cleanse AOE heal bot to Grace is steep, very. 40 could be months away and a few slight tweaks could go a long way into changing the not WAI (as I feel) of 99% of WPs back line healing for insane amounts. Sorry if that sounds harsh but to trash his input that way when you are by no means a viable healer (you play Grace) is absurd. After 35 increase we became a liability. The fact that you are speaking otherwise only shows you haven't been in many SCs lately since the update.

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th3gatekeeper
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Re: [Warrior Priest] - Grace

Post#467 » Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:28 pm

freshour wrote:Our Wounds buff gets stripped a lot.
Another idea could be to make this an "aura" type ability. Therefore unable to be stripped. Buffs Wounds by 50 for any ally within 100 feet.

I mean heck, even if (like you said) you made Divine Assault OR Sigmar's Radiance an attack that cannot be defended against. That would help tremendously. - I'd probably go with Sigmar's Radiance as with the tactic this can add up in healing tremendously if it could not be defended against.

Do you think Absence of Faith would be better as a 20 second heal debuff @ 50% OR if the CD was reduced to 10 seconds but kept @ 25%? Just curious.... I think we can all agree 50% for 5 seconds after a crit is pretty high.... But it does take up a valuable tactic so I would think it SHOULD be stronger than an encounter.
Sulfuras - Knight
Viskag - Chosen
Ashkandi - Swordmaster
Syzzle - Bright Wizard
Curz - Marauder
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ThePollie
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Re: [Warrior Priest] - Grace

Post#468 » Tue Feb 23, 2016 8:46 pm

freshour wrote:1/2 Our Wounds buff gets stripped a lot. I'm not sure if you still play but I am on doing SCs for 2-3 hours every single day. And party is great but we get parried a ton. Divine assault can be rendered totally useless in some cases. Especially with NA ping, getting behind a target to negate it almost impossible vs good players. The way the classes are designed we will never out DPS a DoK and I don't care if you we do. But we do not heal if we don't hit. I'm curious if you would be willing to join a few of our SC premades on your WP to show me that you are actually doing decent healing. Otherwise all of your counters to his points are pretty irrelevant.

A point that has been made fifty times over. And no. If I have to go be MLG pro on some scenario scoreboard for you to consider what I say relevant, then I don't care about your opinion.

3. Our heal debuff does need increased. I would gladly swap a tactic out to get a 50% heal debuff when we crit someone as it is arguable the most OP heal debuff in the game. You don't even need good damage to kill someone with a heal debuff on them. Shadow warrior skirm spec can show you that. Not to mention ours has a 20 second cool down and surely would be cleansed almost immediately.

We don't have the tactic slots for what we already have. We don't need yet another mandatory tactic we don't have room for.

Az wants us to be a viable spec. It's melee healer not DPS. Damage went way up, and our heals only slightly increased with no improvement on how to actually hit the target to heal them. I do not want us to deal insane damage as everyone gets so butt hurt by a melee WP being good. If I stand in the front line and heal, it is a huge risk. The rewards in doing so should show that risk. Sigmars heal should be increased by an easy 20-30% and divine assault should have some major strike through as it is parried a very drastic amount. Also we have to hit on front liners just to put out some heals for the group in most cases and they are usually all guarded making our ability to heal even less.

Anyone who afraid of WP throwing out 200k damage and 200k heals can relax. We aren't DoKs but we are "Doc"tors in that we are healers and any healer balsy enough to put the book down and play the class as intended should be rewarded as such. The increase in skill from back line cleanse AOE heal bot to Grace is steep, very. 40 could be months away and a few slight tweaks could go a long way into changing the not WAI (as I feel) of 99% of WPs back line healing for insane amounts. Sorry if that sounds harsh but to trash his input that way when you are by no means a viable healer (you play Grace) is absurd. After 35 increase we became a liability. The fact that you are speaking otherwise only shows you haven't been in many SCs lately since the update.

Speaking otherwise? I don't believe I've ever had a stance other than the fact we are not fully competitive. The increase in damage with this last update has only made this worse.

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ErfanW
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Re: [Warrior Priest] - Grace

Post#469 » Fri Feb 26, 2016 4:36 pm

I wish I had Divine Strike again. On live servers it made me feel like I was usefull in oRvR zergs, I stopped playing Grace as soon as it was removed. The mastery became less satisfaying to me in comparison to Salvation and its Martyr's Blessing.

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TenTonHammer
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Re: [Warrior Priest] - Grace

Post#470 » Fri Feb 26, 2016 4:39 pm

so now that we can off spec

which tree are you guys droppin pts in for 2h wp?
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