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[KotBS] Builds

Knight of the Blazing Sun, Bright Wizard, Witch Hunter, Warrior Priest
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Ototo
Posts: 1012

Re: [KotBS] Builds

Post#21 » Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:26 am

synthrocker wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:47 am
Spoiler:
Ototo wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:08 pm
synthrocker wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:23 pm Problem with the STRA aura is if your mdps is using a STR pot (as they should) it won’t stack and unless you’re specced in the same tree as str aura, the str pot gives more str so it’s wasted. You’re better off running a different aura (if not specced in str aura)
That's a very valid point that roots in the situational and support roles of tanks. May be still a good choice for debuff though, it just depends.

People tend to think that Engis and KotBS are the order easy mode classes, and they are kind of right, but they are also extremely deep classes that can exploit a lot more their potential than simply "slot 3 auras and run with them till log out" or "spam AoE and see numbers flying". IMO the aura mechanic is often underused and even barely understand. It's very powerful, if you adapt it to the flow of fight.

I think that SM are better offensive tanks cause you don't have to deal with the flow using n+1 buttons/clicks with cooldowns, but just with 3 balance mechanic buttons/clicks to adapt swiftly to the fight. A lot harder to learn to use a SM properly or even decently than a KotBS, but a million times tougher to master the use of KotBS over SM and IB. Being proficient in KotBS is relatively easy: run ST! GyR! and other aura, click Shield Rush and Shining Blade on cooldown, press Shatter Confidence when it's available, use guard and AoE taunt, knockdown glass cannon enemies, and use Hold the Line when you are doing nothing else. That's pretty much standard for all tanks except the Auras, and KotBS survives a lot more and better than other tanks if we go down to spam these basics. Master the class is an entire different story: setup a mirror reflect damage with OyG! and AOA! for the moment that you punt a guard bot, change auras on the go to disrupt the enemy team the most, punt correctly and in the right direction, taunt the right guys in the second line, press the healers on CCs, etc... in sum, have eyes everywhere in the line and use the info correctly. This is not easy, and requires both experience and skill. While SMs do this fighting, you need to take a bit of space with KotBS to do so, and that is very hard to do in the middle of a mele.

Man, KOTBS is easy, you're trying to make it sound way over complicated. There are a few things you need to adapt to when in certain situations, but its one of the easiest tanks in the game, its literally nearly a set it and forget it mechanic, and you work your CC and guard switching in. Its not overly complicated and I enjoy that.

I will say though, people in general need to learn to punt in a proper direction =p
What I said is that is very basic, but you can extract a lot of unused potential out of it. Never said at any given point that is a difficult to play class, but that the mechanics are so powerful and stupid-proof, that nobody tries to give a go to actually use them in their full potential. When you get 75% of something going lazy and only 25% more going extremely hardcore, you notice that the curve of effort/results leans towards going easy pissy. It's completely normal and there is no shame in that. You can also take a boosts for those "I'm gonna win this" moments, and KotBS has the tools in the form of Auras and Morales specially, but the class is so easy to play that never trains you for them.

And there should be a quest in chapter 1 like the one with the cannons that teach people where to punt ;)
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Zxul
Posts: 1359

Re: [KotBS] Builds

Post#22 » Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:28 am

Speaking as a chosen player, if I were to roll a kotb and wanted a dps spec think I would go for something like this.

https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/c ... ,3106,3096

Auras resists, melee reflect, dmg aura. With 2 tactics Shield of the Sun dmg should really be felt, combined with melee reflect/dmg aura, and with -35% ap cost you can spam Precision Strike alot without running of AP, which should give a significant boost to dmg as well.
"Can we play with him, master? He seems so unhappy. Let us help him smile. Please? Or at least let us carve one on his face when he stops screaming."

— Azeila, Alluress of Slaanesh

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Ototo
Posts: 1012

Re: [KotBS] Builds

Post#23 » Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:54 am

Zxul wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:28 am Speaking as a chosen player, if I were to roll a kotb and wanted a dps spec think I would go for something like this.

https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/c ... ,3106,3096

Auras resists, melee reflect, dmg aura. With 2 tactics Shield of the Sun dmg should really be felt, combined with melee reflect/dmg aura, and with -35% ap cost you can spam Precision Strike alot without running of AP, which should give a significant boost to dmg as well.
Nope that I like it, honestly. Without Myrmidia's Fury and with Emperor Ward... nope. Sunfury tactic is incredibly situational at best, when not directly irrelevant unless that you are fighting casters and Choppas non-stop, and even then you are probably gonna be pulled yourself b4 you manage to interrupt GtdC. Simply not worthy of the tactic slot that you take out of Banish Darkness, which would punt the guard bot away and make anything be felt. Trust me, you really want to pick Myrmidia's Fury if you want to go 2h for any other reason than looking fancy.

On the other hand, Precision Strike... the skill that you spam when you have not a single useful skill out of cooldown. While I see where this comes from, having also a Chosen myself, PS is not Ravage. It has armor penetration but the damage can be mitigated as any other physical attack. KotBS and Chosen are not exact mirrors.
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juhalanz
Posts: 24

Re: [KotBS] Builds

Post#24 » Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:06 am

Just some question about game mechanics, can't get it.

Do "thorns" skill like Shield of the Sun or On your Guard! proc when I defend from an attack block/parry/disrupt/evade?

Do they proc from Guard damage?

Or in order to play the "best" thorn build i need to go 2h with low % defense and big toughness/initiative/wounds?

Zxul
Posts: 1359

Re: [KotBS] Builds

Post#25 » Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:13 am

Ototo wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:54 am
Zxul wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:28 am Speaking as a chosen player, if I were to roll a kotb and wanted a dps spec think I would go for something like this.

https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/c ... ,3106,3096

Auras resists, melee reflect, dmg aura. With 2 tactics Shield of the Sun dmg should really be felt, combined with melee reflect/dmg aura, and with -35% ap cost you can spam Precision Strike alot without running of AP, which should give a significant boost to dmg as well.
Nope that I like it, honestly. Without Myrmidia's Fury and with Emperor Ward... nope. Sunfury tactic is incredibly situational at best, when not directly irrelevant unless that you are fighting casters and Choppas non-stop, and even then you are probably gonna be pulled yourself b4 you manage to interrupt GtdC. Simply not worthy of the tactic slot that you take out of Banish Darkness, which would punt the guard bot away and make anything be felt. Trust me, you really want to pick Myrmidia's Fury if you want to go 2h for any other reason than looking fancy.

On the other hand, Precision Strike... the skill that you spam when you have not a single useful skill out of cooldown. While I see where this comes from, having also a Chosen myself, PS is not Ravage. It has armor penetration but the damage can be mitigated as any other physical attack. KotBS and Chosen are not exact mirrors.
Myrmidia's Fury is available- I didn't used in the build even all of the rr40 points. Emperor Ward from experience with chaos version absorbs loads and loads of dmg, exactly what you need for solo or pug (since dps build on kotb isn't for 6man anyway). Sunfury, if going by builder values, is extra 75 dmg once per 2 sec to the target (icd was 2 sec wasn't it?), or 50 extra dmg on average accounting for Shield of the Sun CD with Sun's Blessing- with kotb's bad scaling, thats worth 125 or so str (=it would take to get the same dps increase on kotb). Take into account that it can't be parried/ blocked, and its actually quite a bit more. Are the builder's values correct btw? Or how much dmg Shield of the Sun actually does per hit at 40, with and without the Sunfury?

As for Precision Strike- speaking as snb dps chosen being able to solo kill even lower healers, on chosen kill is all about keeping the pressure up. Now I also went on chosen for ws+Cleave build back in a day (also made Relentless do good dmg despite being physical on snb back then) , and with 600+ ws Cleave works just fine even without the 25% armor ignore which PS has. Not to mention that kotb also got m1 to debuff armor with.
"Can we play with him, master? He seems so unhappy. Let us help him smile. Please? Or at least let us carve one on his face when he stops screaming."

— Azeila, Alluress of Slaanesh

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Ototo
Posts: 1012

Re: [KotBS] Builds

Post#26 » Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:41 am

Zxul wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:13 am
Spoiler:
Ototo wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:54 am
Zxul wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:28 am Speaking as a chosen player, if I were to roll a kotb and wanted a dps spec think I would go for something like this.

https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/c ... ,3106,3096

Auras resists, melee reflect, dmg aura. With 2 tactics Shield of the Sun dmg should really be felt, combined with melee reflect/dmg aura, and with -35% ap cost you can spam Precision Strike alot without running of AP, which should give a significant boost to dmg as well.
Nope that I like it, honestly. Without Myrmidia's Fury and with Emperor Ward... nope. Sunfury tactic is incredibly situational at best, when not directly irrelevant unless that you are fighting casters and Choppas non-stop, and even then you are probably gonna be pulled yourself b4 you manage to interrupt GtdC. Simply not worthy of the tactic slot that you take out of Banish Darkness, which would punt the guard bot away and make anything be felt. Trust me, you really want to pick Myrmidia's Fury if you want to go 2h for any other reason than looking fancy.

On the other hand, Precision Strike... the skill that you spam when you have not a single useful skill out of cooldown. While I see where this comes from, having also a Chosen myself, PS is not Ravage. It has armor penetration but the damage can be mitigated as any other physical attack. KotBS and Chosen are not exact mirrors.
Myrmidia's Fury is available- I didn't used in the build even all of the rr40 points. Emperor Ward from experience with chaos version absorbs loads and loads of dmg, exactly what you need for solo or pug (since dps build on kotb isn't for 6man anyway). Sunfury, if going by builder values, is extra 75 dmg once per 2 sec to the target (icd was 2 sec wasn't it?), or 50 extra dmg on average accounting for Shield of the Sun CD with Sun's Blessing- with kotb's bad scaling, thats worth 125 or so str (=it would take to get the same dps increase on kotb). Take into account that it can't be parried/ blocked, and its actually quite a bit more. Are the builder's values correct btw? Or how much dmg Shield of the Sun actually does per hit at 40, with and without the Sunfury?

As for Precision Strike- speaking as snb dps chosen being able to solo kill even lower healers, on chosen kill is all about keeping the pressure up. Now I also went on chosen for ws+Cleave build back in a day (also made Relentless do good dmg despite being physical on snb back then) , and with 600+ ws Cleave works just fine even without the 25% armor ignore which PS has. Not to mention that kotb also got m1 to debuff armor with.
Why would you stack WS in Chosens? A good part of the attacks are Spiritual Damage. Wouldn't be better to simply go all the way for strength to make sure that your blows land and provide some parry?

Emperor Ward is not terrible like Focused Offense, but is far from great cause you have Perseverance, so you can work on it. I still stand that you have better things to slot than it and Sunfury, I explained my points a couple times. I will give you those numbers tomorrow, and let's see, but still you need to take out Focused Mending, Banish Darkness, Sun's Blessing, Glided Shield, Coordination, Bellow Commands or Rugged, which IMO are way better tactics, and you actually require at least 2 of them for the build you have in mind to work. I would not trade Banish Darkness for Efficient Swings, ever. Bellow Commands give the extra passive regen AP for all skills instead of just Conquest tree ones, or even To Glory! aura that you picked.

Idk about the rest that you speak of, honestly. Chosen, and all tanks in fact, have the same armor reduction M1, and if you pick that over Champion Challenge, you are doing it very bad for your team. In the specific situation of KotBS, you may pick the shield cause is very powerful and easy to have up one a minute being M1. You are also comparing Precision Strike with Cleave, when Cleave can't be defended against. The most obvious comparison is with Ravage, that partially ignore defenses due to Spiritual Damage, and is a very decent spam filler. Comparing Cleave with anything in the KotBS arsenal is not really possible. All KotBS attacks can be defended against, and Precision Strike can and will be parried or blocked often, where Cleave will never be.
Spoiler:

Zxul
Posts: 1359

Re: [KotBS] Builds

Post#27 » Fri Jan 31, 2020 6:45 pm

Ototo wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:41 am Why would you stack WS in Chosens? A good part of the attacks are Spiritual Damage. Wouldn't be better to simply go all the way for strength to make sure that your blows land and provide some parry?
Back before the current tactics change: Cleave is physical. Rlentless with snb is physical. AA is physical. Lot of nonspammable abilities which you still use a lot (say. Suppression) is physical. Landing blows is positional (or vs specific targets Clave spam), and ws gives parry to chosen, not str.
Ototo wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:41 amEmperor Ward is not terrible like Focused Offense, but is far from great cause you have Perseverance, so you can work on it.
Armor isn't worth it all that much anymore- no class which can actually kill you will care about it (on my dok, my chosen, or my magus, unhealed armor turtle tank will die very fast).
Ototo wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:41 amI still stand that you have better things to slot than it and Sunfury, I explained my points a couple times. I will give you those numbers tomorrow, and let's see, but still you need to take out Focused Mending, Banish Darkness, Sun's Blessing, Glided Shield, Coordination, Bellow Commands or Rugged, which IMO are way better tactics, and you actually require at least 2 of them for the build you have in mind to work. I would not trade Banish Darkness for Efficient Swings, ever. Bellow Commands give the extra passive regen AP for all skills instead of just Conquest tree ones, or even To Glory! aura that you picked.
Focused Mending is a tactic for premade, not for solo roaming/pug. Banish Darkness isn't useful enough in open rvr (rushing into opposite side mob trying to punt a target is suicidal, while while solo only in specific spots punt is really useful). Sun's Blessing I got in build. Glided Shield is nice, but that's what HtL and Daft Defender are for, would rather spend 20 rr points than a tactic slot. Coordination is nice again but requires going up middle tree. Rugged is good till you can get 750 toughness without it, then you are really better off replacing it.

As for Bellow Commands, ap regen only kicks in after you are out of GCD. Efficient Swings is 35% less cost, or 40*0.35=14 ap saved per Precision Strike used, which obviously works during GCD. Assuming you are spamming DD abilities to keep the pressure in, which is what gets you the kills, you will only be out of GCD after you are out of AP- which is exacly what you want to prevent.
Ototo wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:41 amIdk about the rest that you speak of, honestly. Chosen, and all tanks in fact, have the same armor reduction M1, and if you pick that over Champion Challenge, you are doing it very bad for your team. In the specific situation of KotBS, you may pick the shield cause is very powerful and easy to have up one a minute being M1.
No reason to go for Champion Challenge when melee snare is free and in most situations where Champion Challenge would make a difference will work just as good. Again, specially if you are not in premade. As for m1 absorb, over 1 min it will absorb 3600 dmg, while the Emperor Ward which you didn't consider useful will absorb up to 6500, without costing you the m1 slot.

On a dps build on tank you need dmg- 900 unmitigated dmg and 1056/44=24% less armor mitigation for 15 sec is exactly what you want glued in.

Take an average healer decked in armor talis to get to 3 k armor, add m1 and its 2 k. Add then 25% armor ignore on PS, and 600 sh ws for 50% armor ignore, and he ends up at 750 worth of actual armor, or 17% remaining physical mitigation. Which is when healers find out that tanks can do dps after all.
Ototo wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:41 amYou are also comparing Precision Strike with Cleave, when Cleave can't be defended against. The most obvious comparison is with Ravage, that partially ignore defenses due to Spiritual Damage, and is a very decent spam filler. Comparing Cleave with anything in the KotBS arsenal is not really possible. All KotBS attacks can be defended against, and Precision Strike can and will be parried or blocked often, where Cleave will never be.
I'm comparing them as far as physical dmg builds go. And comparing PS to Ravage, PS has it own advantages, as shown above.

As for kotb arsenal- Shield of the Sun can't be defended. Dmg aura can't be defended. Melee reflect aura can't be defended. So kotb has plenty of undefendable dmg if you build one right (speaking as reflect build chosen who hasn't lost a single 1v1 vs slayers).
"Can we play with him, master? He seems so unhappy. Let us help him smile. Please? Or at least let us carve one on his face when he stops screaming."

— Azeila, Alluress of Slaanesh

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Ototo
Posts: 1012

Re: [KotBS] Builds

Post#28 » Sat Feb 01, 2020 8:16 am

Zxul wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 6:45 pm
Spoiler:
Ototo wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:41 am Why would you stack WS in Chosens? A good part of the attacks are Spiritual Damage. Wouldn't be better to simply go all the way for strength to make sure that your blows land and provide some parry?
Back before the current tactics change: Cleave is physical. Rlentless with snb is physical. AA is physical. Lot of nonspammable abilities which you still use a lot (say. Suppression) is physical. Landing blows is positional (or vs specific targets Clave spam), and ws gives parry to chosen, not str.
Ototo wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:41 amEmperor Ward is not terrible like Focused Offense, but is far from great cause you have Perseverance, so you can work on it.
Armor isn't worth it all that much anymore- no class which can actually kill you will care about it (on my dok, my chosen, or my magus, unhealed armor turtle tank will die very fast).
Ototo wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:41 amI still stand that you have better things to slot than it and Sunfury, I explained my points a couple times. I will give you those numbers tomorrow, and let's see, but still you need to take out Focused Mending, Banish Darkness, Sun's Blessing, Glided Shield, Coordination, Bellow Commands or Rugged, which IMO are way better tactics, and you actually require at least 2 of them for the build you have in mind to work. I would not trade Banish Darkness for Efficient Swings, ever. Bellow Commands give the extra passive regen AP for all skills instead of just Conquest tree ones, or even To Glory! aura that you picked.
Focused Mending is a tactic for premade, not for solo roaming/pug. Banish Darkness isn't useful enough in open rvr (rushing into opposite side mob trying to punt a target is suicidal, while while solo only in specific spots punt is really useful). Sun's Blessing I got in build. Glided Shield is nice, but that's what HtL and Daft Defender are for, would rather spend 20 rr points than a tactic slot. Coordination is nice again but requires going up middle tree. Rugged is good till you can get 750 toughness without it, then you are really better off replacing it.

As for Bellow Commands, ap regen only kicks in after you are out of GCD. Efficient Swings is 35% less cost, or 40*0.35=14 ap saved per Precision Strike used, which obviously works during GCD. Assuming you are spamming DD abilities to keep the pressure in, which is what gets you the kills, you will only be out of GCD after you are out of AP- which is exacly what you want to prevent.
Ototo wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:41 amIdk about the rest that you speak of, honestly. Chosen, and all tanks in fact, have the same armor reduction M1, and if you pick that over Champion Challenge, you are doing it very bad for your team. In the specific situation of KotBS, you may pick the shield cause is very powerful and easy to have up one a minute being M1.
No reason to go for Champion Challenge when melee snare is free and in most situations where Champion Challenge would make a difference will work just as good. Again, specially if you are not in premade. As for m1 absorb, over 1 min it will absorb 3600 dmg, while the Emperor Ward which you didn't consider useful will absorb up to 6500, without costing you the m1 slot.

On a dps build on tank you need dmg- 900 unmitigated dmg and 1056/44=24% less armor mitigation for 15 sec is exactly what you want glued in.

Take an average healer decked in armor talis to get to 3 k armor, add m1 and its 2 k. Add then 25% armor ignore on PS, and 600 sh ws for 50% armor ignore, and he ends up at 750 worth of actual armor, or 17% remaining physical mitigation. Which is when healers find out that tanks can do dps after all.
Ototo wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:41 amYou are also comparing Precision Strike with Cleave, when Cleave can't be defended against. The most obvious comparison is with Ravage, that partially ignore defenses due to Spiritual Damage, and is a very decent spam filler. Comparing Cleave with anything in the KotBS arsenal is not really possible. All KotBS attacks can be defended against, and Precision Strike can and will be parried or blocked often, where Cleave will never be.
I'm comparing them as far as physical dmg builds go. And comparing PS to Ravage, PS has it own advantages, as shown above.

As for kotb arsenal- Shield of the Sun can't be defended. Dmg aura can't be defended. Melee reflect aura can't be defended. So kotb has plenty of undefendable dmg if you build one right (speaking as reflect build chosen who hasn't lost a single 1v1 vs slayers).
I understand your points, and while I disagree with things here and there, I think that they can be pinned down to game play more than anything. Sorry to not bring the numbers today, but had a very bad day irl and logged my leveling BW to see things burn, then completely forgot about it. You have my word that you will have them by tomorrow.
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Ototo
Posts: 1012

Re: [KotBS] Builds

Post#29 » Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:46 am

Zxul wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:13 am Numbers
No armor, weapons, or mastery points spend, 100 elemental damage. Your build 130 elemental damage. All out Assault base 99, your build 135.

Also I made a mistake the other day. I was meant to say Vigilance, but instead I said Perseverance. My fault.
Spoiler:

Zxul
Posts: 1359

Re: [KotBS] Builds

Post#30 » Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:52 pm

Ototo wrote: Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:46 am
Zxul wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:13 am Numbers
No armor, weapons, or mastery points spend, 100 elemental damage. Your build 130 elemental damage. All out Assault base 99, your build 135.

Also I made a mistake the other day. I was meant to say Vigilance, but instead I said Perseverance. My fault.
To clarify, is it 130 dmg with Sunfury, and with enough points in tree for Heaven's Fury?

As for All out Assault, calculate how much str would it take to get same dmg boost, especially with kotb scaling. And add that it can't be parried/blocked, is aoe, and doesn't costs GCDs.
"Can we play with him, master? He seems so unhappy. Let us help him smile. Please? Or at least let us carve one on his face when he stops screaming."

— Azeila, Alluress of Slaanesh

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