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[Witch Hunter] clarification on the state of WH

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Atropik
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Posts: 534

Re: [Witch Hunter] clarification on the state of WH

Post#41 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:42 pm

Koha wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:04 pm
Burst and Spike dmg WE has the advantage.
WH is more versatile, can do ok DMG while being more defensive.. and its better at handling multiple targets alone.
Still, i cant see any advantage on WE.
these:
- 300 extra dmg WE sometimes gets (and sometimes not) from proc is not really a big difference.
- Pa does not stack with BE, and they both does not stack with Eoip, actually 50% ar.pen on BE is the best and the only option both classes have, another thing here with WS - even having a nice +120 buff WE is not able to reach any decent amount of this stat, difference in dmg output between 250 and 370 WS is miserable. About the nasty crits PA can have, like 3 years ago or so, a had a proposition to downgrade RB into core skill for both classes and provide WH with PA on its place, every single WH i met cried like no tomorrow against giving RB to WE, but still, i believe that was a wonderful idea. xd
- MT tactic is very situational, it is an all-in style tactic, using MT you have to retreat everytime something goes wrong or keep fighting with 1 tactic slot being wasted. On top of this, WE can run MT only as a part of Witchbrew build (and they do what? correct, they do not stack! xd), or you need to sacrifice Shadow Step for MT, lul.
- Eoip is a joke after BE and Shadow Step being implemented, i wouldnt even mention this.
- Swift Movements does not really increase dmg, and again is a strongly situational thing 95% of WEs never run.

Im surprised you didnt mention ToB, cause Tob is nice and must be the only decent thing that was not tweaked to WH.

On the other hand WH has:

-Inq.fury which provides permanent aa haste bonus, not after spending frenzies, not on the next Tuesday, but now.
-Core Vindication which can be switched to with a hotkey and provide you with 35%!(sic) raw dmg bonus for 10 seconds every time you are attacked with magic and believe it would worth spending a Seal.
-All 3 decent 13pt finishers, you are able to choose from - 1 was taken from WE, 2d is a little bit tricky but still ok, 3d is good only against light armored targets, but against those is just insane. WE has only 1, which was shared, 2d - used to be good before t4 came online, and 3d - you can only scare the dummy with.
- And i wouldnt underestimate the Seekers Blade, it helps a lot to secure the kill, it has a debuff component to cover the healdebuff, its overall good.

Dont get me wrong, im not trying to complain, all these differences are minor. Two classes are more or less balanced, noone has any noticeable advantage over the other, but the statement that WE hits harder because.... because she can happen to proc 1 or 2 extra kisses per combat or she has one/two situational +15% dmg tactics, or she has better mastery tree composition, is ridiculous.

I have to admit, WH used to have thug life compared to WE, but this comes not from the false statement - WE is generally better or deal more dmg, but because as a WE you can meet only few not even classes, but people you can have hard time dealing with, they are mostly endup geared WLs, riposte Slayers and deftarded Kotbses. The same time, as a WH you have to run for and away from extremely tanky and mobile mshs, extremely hard to kill shamies, offensive but still tough chosens, deftarded maras, blackguards, dps doks and maguses. Thats why i personaly do not play WH, this is to much challenging. Thats it.
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Machiara
Posts: 14

Re: [Witch Hunter] clarification on the state of WH

Post#42 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:54 pm

As someone who plays a WH regularly, I have to agree with this. I get cc'd constantly while in stealth mode; AoE roots, snares, even disables are all a problem. You have to be very careful to avoid the AoE damage meatgrinder or you're going to arrive at your target at 1/3 health And you can't do anything to rid yourself of cc without breaking stealth.

So that's lowering mobility and increasing time to target that SWs and WLs just don't have to worry about. They're there fighting while the WH is still trudging his way across the battlefield. And that's not even mentioning that WH doesn't have a core charge ability, and the one it can spec into has a 60s cooldown.

Vandoles
Posts: 246

Re: [Witch Hunter] clarification on the state of WH

Post#43 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:05 pm

Spoiler:
Atropik wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:42 pm
Koha wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:04 pm
Burst and Spike dmg WE has the advantage.
WH is more versatile, can do ok DMG while being more defensive.. and its better at handling multiple targets alone.
Still, i cant see any advantage on WE.
these:
- 300 extra dmg WE sometimes gets (and sometimes not) from proc is not really a big difference.
- Pa does not stack with BE, and they both does not stack with Eoip, actually 50% ar.pen on BE is the best and the only option both classes have, another thing here with WS - even having a nice +120 buff WE is not able to reach any decent amount of this stat, difference in dmg output between 250 and 370 WS is miserable. About the nasty crits PA can have, like 3 years ago or so, a had a proposition to downgrade RB into core skill for both classes and provide WH with PA on its place, every single WH i met cried like no tomorrow against giving RB to WE, but still, i believe that was a wonderful idea. xd
- MT tactic is very situational, it is an all-in style tactic, using MT you have to retreat everytime something goes wrong or keep fighting with 1 tactic slot being wasted. On top of this, WE can run MT only as a part of Witchbrew build (and they do what? correct, they do not stack! xd), or you need to sacrifice Shadow Step for MT, lul.
- Eoip is a joke after BE and Shadow Step being implemented, i wouldnt even mention this.
- Swift Movements does not really increase dmg, and again is a strongly situational thing 95% of WEs never run.

Im surprised you didnt mention ToB, cause Tob is nice and must be the only decent thing that was not tweaked to WH.

On the other hand WH has:

-Inq.fury which provides permanent aa haste bonus, not after spending frenzies, not on the next Tuesday, but now.
-Core Vindication which can be switched to with a hotkey and provide you with 35%!(sic) raw dmg bonus for 10 seconds every time you are attacked with magic and believe it would worth spending a Seal.
-All 3 decent 13pt finishers, you are able to choose from - 1 was taken from WE, 2d is a little bit tricky but still ok, 3d is good only against light armored targets, but against those is just insane. WE has only 1, which was shared, 2d - used to be good before t4 came online, and 3d - you can only scare the dummy with.
- And i wouldnt underestimate the Seekers Blade, it helps a lot to secure the kill, it has a debuff component to cover the healdebuff, its overall good.

Dont get me wrong, im not trying to complain, all these differences are minor. Two classes are more or less balanced, noone has any noticeable advantage over the other, but the statement that WE hits harder because.... because she can happen to proc 1 or 2 extra kisses per combat or she has one/two situational +15% dmg tactics, or she has better mastery tree composition, is ridiculous.

I have to admit, WH used to have thug life compared to WE, but this comes not from the false statement - WE is generally better or deal more dmg, but because as a WE you can meet only few not even classes, but people you can have hard time dealing with, they are mostly endup geared WLs, riposte Slayers and deftarded Kotbses. The same time, as a WH you have to run for and away from extremely tanky and mobile mshs, extremely hard to kill shamies, offensive but still tough chosens, deftarded maras, blackguards, dps doks and maguses. Thats why i personaly do not play WH, this is to much challenging. Thats it.
WE isn't "stronger" than a WH, it just has options, WH has a lot fewer. Those defensive builds with withcbrew, self-heal builds, regen builds - they let you do stuff a WH can't. Maybe a WH hits harder, but that's all it does. That's why its usually considered 24th out of 24 classes and WE is maybe 23rd.

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Rumpel
Posts: 218

Re: [Witch Hunter] clarification on the state of WH

Post#44 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:21 pm

Machiara wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:54 pm
As someone who plays a WH regularly, I have to agree with this. I get cc'd constantly while in stealth mode; AoE roots, snares, even disables are all a problem. You have to be very careful to avoid the AoE damage meatgrinder or you're going to arrive at your target at 1/3 health And you can't do anything to rid yourself of cc without breaking stealth.
Don't stealth through the zerg. :D Sounds like the wrong place for a stealth class. Absolutely don't have this problem. I think the class isn't for zerg. If I like to I play mara and get be bored very fast.
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Machiara
Posts: 14

Re: [Witch Hunter] clarification on the state of WH

Post#45 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:01 pm

Rumpel wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:21 pm
Don't stealth through the zerg. :D Sounds like the wrong place for a stealth class. Absolutely don't have this problem. I think the class isn't for zerg. If I like to I play mara and get be bored very fast.
Isn't that the whole point of this thread? To clarify the state of the WH? The question was why WH stealth in ST group play was inferior mobility to WL and AsW. That's the reason I posted. Yes, you can avoid the meatgrinder (and most of the cc) but you have to go around, which takes longer. And you still don't always avoid all the cc.
The WL just pounces over.

So I agree, this isn't a problem in 1v1 but we're not talking about 1v1, we're talking about comparing WH utility and damage to that of other MDPS classes. Sounds like you agree that WHs have big problems in this area (and given that you pretty much have to do cities to get endgame gear, that's an issue).

Brickson
Posts: 60

Re: [Witch Hunter] clarification on the state of WH

Post#46 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:57 am

Spoiler:
Vandoles wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:41 pm
You will get tons of different opinions that are very hard to sift through on WH. The reason for that is because everyone adopts a very different point of view and looks extremely subjectively on the performance of a class.

Here's a bit more of an objective viewpoint from someone who played the class, but isn't an active WH :

Yes, WH is in a bad state right now. No, not because the WH as a class is weak at its job. Because a WH has a niche role which is less prominent in the meta game and because several other classes outperform him in most places. The playstyle of a WH is in a bad state - not the WH itself. Also because a WH requires a large amount of dedication to achieve usefulness and there are massively dedicated WHs who you will compete with who had years of a headstart ahead of you.

Point by point on the above:

1. The meta game is large-scale fighting and highly organized small scale fighting. These are not the strong suit of a WH.

2. White Lions and Slayers have 1) aoe and 2) better tools for getting in and out of a fight and dumping damage easier (yes, stealth is theoretically good for getting in and out of a fight, but in practice within scenarios and small scale it is not). WHs have arguably better single target damage, but this is achievable only at high gear levels (more on that below) and will often be much harder to dump. You can outperform a WL/Slayer/shadow warrior on a single target train. But most of the time you won't. Therefore you will not be as desired unless you're extremely well known. Also at the higher meta game where this even matters, those classes will also be overgeared and likely bring stuff to the fight you don't.

3. The ganking/soloing playstyle a WH would normally adopt is in a very bad shape right now. Soloing is highly discouraged, 1v1s are as far away from balanced as possible and this has in turn motivated more and more soloers to leave, meaning 1v1s, stragglers and other things you may wish to hunt as a witch hunter are extremely rare as of late. Even more so outside peak EU times.

^ these points are almost always where the arguments for whether a WH is good or not become confusing. Because the class "Witch Hunter" is pretty ok, but the game Warhammer Online is very bad for witch hunters :)

4. For a WH to perform properly, you need massive dedication. Mostly gear. The WH auto attack build for example that can drop hilarious amounts of damage is warlord/sov iirc. This in itself is not the problem, it's more that IF people need a WH they will probably only need 1 or 2. And due to the amazing class fantasy and style of the class, weakness or no weakness there are dozens of extremely dedicated WHs that have been playing for years, have perfect gear, perfect skills and lots of reputation. You will be competing with them for group content.

So, to sum up with conclusions, a WH will perform well, you won't feel weak, its weakness is NOT that you can't kill things - you will kill things, a lot, quickly. But you will have trouble finding groups or playing the meta and will likely have to settle for less than most. You will also absolutely need to make friends and endure the hardships of soloing on a server where soloing is extremely discouraged.
It's still a long way for me to have enough crests for warlord/sov, but I would nonetheless be interested in more details about the auto attack build, if you got some :)
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Korhill
Posts: 84

Re: [Witch Hunter] clarification on the state of WH

Post#47 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:53 am

Vandoles wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:03 pm
Spoiler:
Korhill wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:16 pm
Vandoles wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:47 pm
Spoiler:
1. Yes, even the staunchest WH defenders will readily admit WH is bad in largescale and not the best in smallscale organized, certainly mostly inferior to the other mdps.

2. I don't play slayer a lot, so I'm not sure about them, certainly they have a better tool for getting INTO a fight. Also slayers are mostly aoe, their single target is in a bad state in itself right now, so not comparable to WH who already starts with the huge handicap of not having good aoe. Shadow Warrior/White Lion are a better single target comparison. Generally entering the meatgrinder aoe of current meta is better with charge rather than stealthing slowly in. Shadow warriors also have a shadowstep and white lions have pounce, which is miles better. Stealth is terrible because once you're out of it, you need 30 seconds to enter it again and that means for 30 seconds you're out of your only tool to enter/exit fights. Plus due to the fact you gotta use it right before a fight or risk it running out, enemies will normally see you stealth and it'll also drain your AP a little. It's harder to explain why stealth is quite bad until you've tried it and you'll realize that it's not what you think it is. But the escape tool is not the absolute key here. It's the answer to your second question - a WH needs to sit on a target for a specific amount of time and get your hits off to accumulate damage. This is also super vulnerable to stuff like detaunts or a tank reacting quickly with guard. As tanks exist in this game, this is not easy to do when you can be knocked down, knocked back, snared, debuffed, staggered or just simply focused. A White Lion or Shadow Warrior is much more bursty in its single target rotation and when this is combined with pounce/shadowstep, you can dash in and dump ALL your tools before you're incapacitated in some way.

4. I didn't really make any points with point 4 beyond that it's gear dependent not sure what it contradicts :D I guess you mean the "hilarious levels of damage" part?

I'm not sure how they don't, the lack of aoe already puts WH into the absolute second tier of the current metagame and I did kind of explain why single target WH is outshone in many ways.

Edit: Note that you may be getting confused because I'm also making the point that the WH sounds good and works in theory, but not in reality. And we're in the forum making, you know, sounds and theories :)

Saying that WL has better single target damage is maybe right on low level or class cannon players. Since the topic is the WH I guess you mean solo too.

I made a 2 years break and with the new armors and defensive possibilities that are available (full of msh, monstro maras, or if any player invest more in defence, the WL starts to struggles a lot. Destro has even a lot of tanks.

If we talk about hardcore soloer or high level player, or players with sov/warlord, or any one who spents more in defence, and all the tanks the WH is in a better spot than the WL.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but a single-target melee train is almost exclusively used for squishy players? I've never heard of a tank-buster single target train. I could be wrong, not the most hardcore player.
Spoiler:
Arbich wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:40 pm
Vandoles wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:47 pm
Spoiler:
1. Yes, even the staunchest WH defenders will readily admit WH is bad in largescale and not the best in smallscale organized, certainly mostly inferior to the other mdps.

2. I don't play slayer a lot, so I'm not sure about them, certainly they have a better tool for getting INTO a fight. Also slayers are mostly aoe, their single target is in a bad state in itself right now (as far as I've heard and still irrelevant due to their super strong aoe which is meta), so not comparable to WH who already starts with the huge handicap of not having good aoe. Shadow Warrior/White Lion are a better single target comparison. Generally entering the meatgrinder aoe of current meta is better with charge rather than stealthing slowly in. Shadow warriors also have a shadowstep and white lions have pounce, which is miles better. Stealth is terrible because once you're out of it, you need 30 seconds to enter it again and that means for 30 seconds you're out of your only tool to enter/exit fights. Plus due to the fact you gotta use it right before a fight or risk it running out, enemies will normally see you stealth and it'll also drain your AP a little. It's harder to explain why stealth is quite bad until you've tried it and you'll realize that it's not what you think it is. But the escape tool is not the absolute key here. It's the answer to your second question - a WH needs to sit on a target for a specific amount of time and get your hits off to accumulate damage. This is also super vulnerable to stuff like detaunts or a tank reacting quickly with guard. As tanks exist in this game, this is not easy to do when you can be knocked down, knocked back, snared, debuffed, staggered or just simply focused. A White Lion or Shadow Warrior is much more bursty in its single target rotation and when this is combined with pounce/shadowstep, you can dash in and dump ALL your tools before you're incapacitated in some way.

4. I didn't really make any points with point 4 beyond that it's gear dependent not sure what it contradicts :D I guess you mean the "hilarious levels of damage" part?

I'm not sure how they don't, the lack of aoe already puts WH into the absolute second tier of the current metagame and I did kind of explain why single target WH is outshone in many ways.

Edit: Note that you may be getting confused because I'm also making the point that the WH sounds good and works in theory, but not in reality. And we're in the forum making, you know, sounds and theories :)
Why is stealth is not a good tool to get in fight?
The escape tool for WH is sanctified oil. It would be nice, if this ability would be core, but as fanatical cleansing is also mandatory and sanctified oil is before this tactic in right tree, you effectively only "lose" one skill point to grab the ability. This ability works obviously also as a good gap closer. not exactly WL lvl of mobility (which is ridiculous anyway) but better than a SW.
All melees are "vulnerable" to detaunts. I would argue that the WH is actually less vulnerable than other melee dps due to stealth and easy access knockdown.

The thing that get me confused, because I understand you so that a WH with BiS equip and experience does fine. So its essentially a player issue? The WH class might have a higher skill floor than other classes, don´t know. I almost never play my WL, because I find the pet control quite stressful and my slayer (and SW) is lvl 7 so...
But thats true for other classes, too. ask any tank (IBs in particular); or a salvation WP on the other end of the spectrum :-D
Because with stealth you still slowly walk through the meatgrinder of aoe and you're vulnerable to aoe CC. And pounce/shadowstep are instant - stealth takes several seconds to activate and reach your target. Single-target bursting down someone requires lightning fast switches/reactions. You don't need overall mobility to take things out, you need a very quick distance closer.

Unless I'm mistaken sanctified oil is on a shared CD with sigils? It also lasts very slightly too short to be used as a good gap closer.

Everyone is vulnerable to detaunts, yes, but a WH usually needs to "load" its damage and has a 3 sec KD to burst down with. Meanwhile as I listed, a WL/SW will just dump everything in 1-2 GCDs, so you can pre-empt detaunts or burst, wait for detaunt, burst. It does fine with any equipment, it just does ever so slightly worse than other options. It especially does fine with BiS equip, but WL/aSW do even better with BiS equip.

And no, it's not a player issue at all. Some of the most skilled players on the server play WHs. The fantasy and feel of the class attracts mad dedicated people. It doesn't have the highest skill cap either, WH is fairly straightforward, its only really playing around stealth/low mobility that requires thinking and positioning.

If you don't understand what I'm getting at about the stealth, i urge you to play a WH for a while. You don't need to play for ages, you'll immediately get a feel where its mobility is a lot worse in practice than it is in theory. And besides the whole thing becomes undone anyway because of the single target issues - single target nuking in this game is like threading a needle, you either get it perfect or not at all.
I am talking about playing Solo and the possibility to do single target damage to enemies besides low level classes and class cannon builds.
it seems that the WL has now with more armors and wounds the same problems like he had in AoR. He was one of the worst mdps class there.
In short the WH can kill more classes than the WL and is not limited to low level players and class cannon builds.

So the comment that the WL is a better solo player is wrong in my opinion. There are people that still insists that the WL is OP but that is clearly not the case too.

Vandoles
Posts: 246

Re: [Witch Hunter] clarification on the state of WH

Post#48 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:35 pm

Korhill wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:53 am
Vandoles wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:03 pm
Spoiler:
Korhill wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 5:16 pm



Saying that WL has better single target damage is maybe right on low level or class cannon players. Since the topic is the WH I guess you mean solo too.

I made a 2 years break and with the new armors and defensive possibilities that are available (full of msh, monstro maras, or if any player invest more in defence, the WL starts to struggles a lot. Destro has even a lot of tanks.

If we talk about hardcore soloer or high level player, or players with sov/warlord, or any one who spents more in defence, and all the tanks the WH is in a better spot than the WL.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but a single-target melee train is almost exclusively used for squishy players? I've never heard of a tank-buster single target train. I could be wrong, not the most hardcore player.
Spoiler:
Arbich wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:40 pm


Why is stealth is not a good tool to get in fight?
The escape tool for WH is sanctified oil. It would be nice, if this ability would be core, but as fanatical cleansing is also mandatory and sanctified oil is before this tactic in right tree, you effectively only "lose" one skill point to grab the ability. This ability works obviously also as a good gap closer. not exactly WL lvl of mobility (which is ridiculous anyway) but better than a SW.
All melees are "vulnerable" to detaunts. I would argue that the WH is actually less vulnerable than other melee dps due to stealth and easy access knockdown.

The thing that get me confused, because I understand you so that a WH with BiS equip and experience does fine. So its essentially a player issue? The WH class might have a higher skill floor than other classes, don´t know. I almost never play my WL, because I find the pet control quite stressful and my slayer (and SW) is lvl 7 so...
But thats true for other classes, too. ask any tank (IBs in particular); or a salvation WP on the other end of the spectrum :-D
Because with stealth you still slowly walk through the meatgrinder of aoe and you're vulnerable to aoe CC. And pounce/shadowstep are instant - stealth takes several seconds to activate and reach your target. Single-target bursting down someone requires lightning fast switches/reactions. You don't need overall mobility to take things out, you need a very quick distance closer.

Unless I'm mistaken sanctified oil is on a shared CD with sigils? It also lasts very slightly too short to be used as a good gap closer.

Everyone is vulnerable to detaunts, yes, but a WH usually needs to "load" its damage and has a 3 sec KD to burst down with. Meanwhile as I listed, a WL/SW will just dump everything in 1-2 GCDs, so you can pre-empt detaunts or burst, wait for detaunt, burst. It does fine with any equipment, it just does ever so slightly worse than other options. It especially does fine with BiS equip, but WL/aSW do even better with BiS equip.

And no, it's not a player issue at all. Some of the most skilled players on the server play WHs. The fantasy and feel of the class attracts mad dedicated people. It doesn't have the highest skill cap either, WH is fairly straightforward, its only really playing around stealth/low mobility that requires thinking and positioning.

If you don't understand what I'm getting at about the stealth, i urge you to play a WH for a while. You don't need to play for ages, you'll immediately get a feel where its mobility is a lot worse in practice than it is in theory. And besides the whole thing becomes undone anyway because of the single target issues - single target nuking in this game is like threading a needle, you either get it perfect or not at all.
I am talking about playing Solo and the possibility to do single target damage to enemies besides low level classes and class cannon builds.
it seems that the WL has now with more armors and wounds the same problems like he had in AoR. He was one of the worst mdps class there.
In short the WH can kill more classes than the WL and is not limited to low level players and class cannon builds.

So the comment that the WL is a better solo player is wrong in my opinion. There are people that still insists that the WL is OP but that is clearly not the case too.
I'm not sure I said WL is a better solo player anywhere. But yes, WH is pretty ok solo. I said that earlier, it's the problem that solo play is bad in general.

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Zxul
Posts: 904

Re: [Witch Hunter] clarification on the state of WH

Post#49 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:41 pm

Vandoles wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:05 pm
Spoiler:
Atropik wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:42 pm
Koha wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:04 pm
Burst and Spike dmg WE has the advantage.
WH is more versatile, can do ok DMG while being more defensive.. and its better at handling multiple targets alone.
Still, i cant see any advantage on WE.
these:
- 300 extra dmg WE sometimes gets (and sometimes not) from proc is not really a big difference.
- Pa does not stack with BE, and they both does not stack with Eoip, actually 50% ar.pen on BE is the best and the only option both classes have, another thing here with WS - even having a nice +120 buff WE is not able to reach any decent amount of this stat, difference in dmg output between 250 and 370 WS is miserable. About the nasty crits PA can have, like 3 years ago or so, a had a proposition to downgrade RB into core skill for both classes and provide WH with PA on its place, every single WH i met cried like no tomorrow against giving RB to WE, but still, i believe that was a wonderful idea. xd
- MT tactic is very situational, it is an all-in style tactic, using MT you have to retreat everytime something goes wrong or keep fighting with 1 tactic slot being wasted. On top of this, WE can run MT only as a part of Witchbrew build (and they do what? correct, they do not stack! xd), or you need to sacrifice Shadow Step for MT, lul.
- Eoip is a joke after BE and Shadow Step being implemented, i wouldnt even mention this.
- Swift Movements does not really increase dmg, and again is a strongly situational thing 95% of WEs never run.

Im surprised you didnt mention ToB, cause Tob is nice and must be the only decent thing that was not tweaked to WH.

On the other hand WH has:

-Inq.fury which provides permanent aa haste bonus, not after spending frenzies, not on the next Tuesday, but now.
-Core Vindication which can be switched to with a hotkey and provide you with 35%!(sic) raw dmg bonus for 10 seconds every time you are attacked with magic and believe it would worth spending a Seal.
-All 3 decent 13pt finishers, you are able to choose from - 1 was taken from WE, 2d is a little bit tricky but still ok, 3d is good only against light armored targets, but against those is just insane. WE has only 1, which was shared, 2d - used to be good before t4 came online, and 3d - you can only scare the dummy with.
- And i wouldnt underestimate the Seekers Blade, it helps a lot to secure the kill, it has a debuff component to cover the healdebuff, its overall good.

Dont get me wrong, im not trying to complain, all these differences are minor. Two classes are more or less balanced, noone has any noticeable advantage over the other, but the statement that WE hits harder because.... because she can happen to proc 1 or 2 extra kisses per combat or she has one/two situational +15% dmg tactics, or she has better mastery tree composition, is ridiculous.

I have to admit, WH used to have thug life compared to WE, but this comes not from the false statement - WE is generally better or deal more dmg, but because as a WE you can meet only few not even classes, but people you can have hard time dealing with, they are mostly endup geared WLs, riposte Slayers and deftarded Kotbses. The same time, as a WH you have to run for and away from extremely tanky and mobile mshs, extremely hard to kill shamies, offensive but still tough chosens, deftarded maras, blackguards, dps doks and maguses. Thats why i personaly do not play WH, this is to much challenging. Thats it.
WE isn't "stronger" than a WH, it just has options, WH has a lot fewer. Those defensive builds with withcbrew, self-heal builds, regen builds - they let you do stuff a WH can't. Maybe a WH hits harder, but that's all it does. That's why its usually considered 24th out of 24 classes and WE is maybe 23rd.
Like I mentioned, wh does has a regen spec, and I did run into whs using it.

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Koha
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Re: [Witch Hunter] clarification on the state of WH

Post#50 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:52 pm

Zxul wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:41 pm
Vandoles wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:05 pm
Spoiler:
Atropik wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:42 pm


Still, i cant see any advantage on WE.
these:
- 300 extra dmg WE sometimes gets (and sometimes not) from proc is not really a big difference.
- Pa does not stack with BE, and they both does not stack with Eoip, actually 50% ar.pen on BE is the best and the only option both classes have, another thing here with WS - even having a nice +120 buff WE is not able to reach any decent amount of this stat, difference in dmg output between 250 and 370 WS is miserable. About the nasty crits PA can have, like 3 years ago or so, a had a proposition to downgrade RB into core skill for both classes and provide WH with PA on its place, every single WH i met cried like no tomorrow against giving RB to WE, but still, i believe that was a wonderful idea. xd
- MT tactic is very situational, it is an all-in style tactic, using MT you have to retreat everytime something goes wrong or keep fighting with 1 tactic slot being wasted. On top of this, WE can run MT only as a part of Witchbrew build (and they do what? correct, they do not stack! xd), or you need to sacrifice Shadow Step for MT, lul.
- Eoip is a joke after BE and Shadow Step being implemented, i wouldnt even mention this.
- Swift Movements does not really increase dmg, and again is a strongly situational thing 95% of WEs never run.

Im surprised you didnt mention ToB, cause Tob is nice and must be the only decent thing that was not tweaked to WH.

On the other hand WH has:

-Inq.fury which provides permanent aa haste bonus, not after spending frenzies, not on the next Tuesday, but now.
-Core Vindication which can be switched to with a hotkey and provide you with 35%!(sic) raw dmg bonus for 10 seconds every time you are attacked with magic and believe it would worth spending a Seal.
-All 3 decent 13pt finishers, you are able to choose from - 1 was taken from WE, 2d is a little bit tricky but still ok, 3d is good only against light armored targets, but against those is just insane. WE has only 1, which was shared, 2d - used to be good before t4 came online, and 3d - you can only scare the dummy with.
- And i wouldnt underestimate the Seekers Blade, it helps a lot to secure the kill, it has a debuff component to cover the healdebuff, its overall good.

Dont get me wrong, im not trying to complain, all these differences are minor. Two classes are more or less balanced, noone has any noticeable advantage over the other, but the statement that WE hits harder because.... because she can happen to proc 1 or 2 extra kisses per combat or she has one/two situational +15% dmg tactics, or she has better mastery tree composition, is ridiculous.

I have to admit, WH used to have thug life compared to WE, but this comes not from the false statement - WE is generally better or deal more dmg, but because as a WE you can meet only few not even classes, but people you can have hard time dealing with, they are mostly endup geared WLs, riposte Slayers and deftarded Kotbses. The same time, as a WH you have to run for and away from extremely tanky and mobile mshs, extremely hard to kill shamies, offensive but still tough chosens, deftarded maras, blackguards, dps doks and maguses. Thats why i personaly do not play WH, this is to much challenging. Thats it.
WE isn't "stronger" than a WH, it just has options, WH has a lot fewer. Those defensive builds with withcbrew, self-heal builds, regen builds - they let you do stuff a WH can't. Maybe a WH hits harder, but that's all it does. That's why its usually considered 24th out of 24 classes and WE is maybe 23rd.
Like I mentioned, wh does has a regen spec, and I did run into whs using it.

viewtopic.php?f=75&t=39590
I still have to try it, but I feel it will lack resistance and damage compared to the WE version : less bubbles and less damage.
If you saw some WH running it how did it look ?
SH Kikass WE Melni BG Melnibone
WH Merci Slayer Koagul Many others

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