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Mighty Soul Removed?!

Knight of the Blazing Sun, Bright Wizard, Witch Hunter, Warrior Priest

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Uchoo
Posts: 281

Re: Mighty Soul Removed?!

Post#81 » Sat Oct 24, 2020 1:19 am

Rydiak wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 1:15 am
Uchoo wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 12:47 am
wargrimnir wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:43 pm


Comments like this are bullshit that won't be tolerated. There isn't any bias or lack of experience. We're quite capable of discussing class balance, and we're more than aware when changes are going to be perceived poorly. That doesn't mean they're not going to happen.

Things change.
Again, I just don't understand why you didn't restore Runefang or do something else with Knight after taking out MS. Knight was already the worst scaling DPS tank. Big ??? from a lot of us.
This is patently false. The vast majority of Knight's abilities scale at the normal 1.5 coefficient.
So what? BG's have 1.5 as well. BO/IB/SM have a 10% tactic. There's nothing that compares to IB damage anyways, be it scaling or base damage at 100 grudge. Do you have information otherwise? A Knight critting for 1k isn't impressive.
"You're just mad because you're not on the list :^)" -RyanMakara

"They're gonna die if we kill them" - Klev on strategy

"(The strong aoe meta) decimated live population in its first year." - Llondo

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sharpblader
Posts: 23

Re: Mighty Soul Removed?!

Post#82 » Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:51 am

wargrimnir wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:43 pm
sharpblader wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:07 pm
Mystry wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:02 pm
The devs have pretty conclusively proven over the years that they don't play Order.
At least, the ones who make 'balance' decisions don't.
Maybe some of them got rekt by solo knights who knows haha?
Comments like this are bullshit that won't be tolerated. There isn't any bias or lack of experience. We're quite capable of discussing class balance, and we're more than aware when changes are going to be perceived poorly. That doesn't mean they're not going to happen.

Things change.

I apologize I meant it in jest. I agree that MS is strong as stated in my earlier post on this topic, not game breaking, but strong because of a heavy cost of 15% extra damage taken. I also posted a suggestion to revert MS to what is was viewtopic.php?f=75&t=41780

I have nothing but respect for the devs nor do I question their lack of experience. But now that you mention it, I'm sure you understand that some of us built our characters over a long time around that tactic.

Naturally one cant help wonder for the reason of its removal instead of tweaking it. I haven't heard anyone complain about it on the forum nor discord. On the contrary people are surprised to know that there were people even using it. So logically, it was a niche build causing a niche problem in 1v1 and small scale which begs the question of its sudden removal. That is why the doubt of bias and arbitrary decisions spring up within us players.

As far as the "guys with big sword should do physical damage" argument is concerned,
wargrimnir wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:03 pm
Several of the Chosen abilities already do Spirit damage. We added Elemental damage to two of the Knight abilities where it made sense. You have more options on Knight without needing to use a tactic slot. The tactics themselves were converting all damage from all sources to magical damage, and for guys with big swords, that ain't right. They're primarily physical damage dealers outside of a few abilities. For people that were aware of this unintended effect, it's probably a nerf.
I fail to see the unintended effect especially when you changed the MS tactic yourselves in the first place. And when you say you add elemental damage to two abilities where it made sense, do you mean abilities which could naturally be perceived to do elemental damage, or made sense where the DPS of the knight is not effected? Currently it seems like the former.

The main confusion still remains. Was MS removed because it was OP or because it did not seem to "fit" the archetype of the class.

Yes things change but what we need is a more solid rationale for it.

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wargrimnir
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Re: Mighty Soul Removed?!

Post#83 » Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:08 pm

sharpblader wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:51 am


I fail to see the unintended effect especially when you changed the MS tactic yourselves in the first place. And when you say you add elemental damage to two abilities where it made sense, do you mean abilities which could naturally be perceived to do elemental damage, or made sense where the DPS of the knight is not effected? Currently it seems like the former.

The main confusion still remains. Was MS removed because it was OP or because it did not seem to "fit" the archetype of the class.

Yes things change but what we need is a more solid rationale for it.
There were a lot of factors considered, so when you hear A and B and C, there's no reason to be confused, we're giving you explanations and you just want to latch on to one thing I guess. End of the day, it's not a super complex issue. We had a couple reasons to remove the tactics, we understand how that's going to be perceived because of a niche meta that used it, and we found ways to account for the thematics of the spec outside of the tactic being removed where it made sense.
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Uchoo
Posts: 281

Re: Mighty Soul Removed?!

Post#84 » Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:52 pm

wargrimnir wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:08 pm
sharpblader wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:51 am


I fail to see the unintended effect especially when you changed the MS tactic yourselves in the first place. And when you say you add elemental damage to two abilities where it made sense, do you mean abilities which could naturally be perceived to do elemental damage, or made sense where the DPS of the knight is not effected? Currently it seems like the former.

The main confusion still remains. Was MS removed because it was OP or because it did not seem to "fit" the archetype of the class.

Yes things change but what we need is a more solid rationale for it.
There were a lot of factors considered, so when you hear A and B and C, there's no reason to be confused, we're giving you explanations and you just want to latch on to one thing I guess. End of the day, it's not a super complex issue. We had a couple reasons to remove the tactics, we understand how that's going to be perceived because of a niche meta that used it, and we found ways to account for the thematics of the spec outside of the tactic being removed where it made sense.
Well again, Knights were not a high dps class, even with MS. There's was too much missing for them to be OP. Chosen are hardly affected by this change. Do I have to put up the numbers that each tank spec does in one of the BiS setups?

I could understand a knight rework with MS being removed, but this isn't a rework, taking out MS just makes them bad. Sure they still have strong roles as 2h utility and SnB but I really don't understand. Was the goal to kill the Knight DPS spec? If so, why Knight and not one of the strong DPS tanks?

Can you maybe specify what A, B and C are so we aren't confused?
Last edited by Uchoo on Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"You're just mad because you're not on the list :^)" -RyanMakara

"They're gonna die if we kill them" - Klev on strategy

"(The strong aoe meta) decimated live population in its first year." - Llondo

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wargrimnir
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Re: Mighty Soul Removed?!

Post#85 » Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:58 pm

Uchoo wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:52 pm

Well again, Knights were not a high dps class, even with MS. There's was too much missing for them to be OP. Chosen are hardly affected by this change. Do I have to put up the numbers that each tank spec does in one of the BiS setups?

I could understand a knight rework with MS being removed, but this isn't a rework, taking out MS just makes them bad. Sure they still have strong roles as 2h utility and SnB but I really don't understand. Was the goal to kill the Knight DPS spec? If so, why Knight and not one of the strong DPS tanks?
Yes. The goal was to kill the Knight DPS spec. I don't like Knights and I think they're dumb.
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Tarantoga
Posts: 68

Re: Mighty Soul Removed?!

Post#86 » Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:59 pm

so, well done

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Uchoo
Posts: 281

Re: Mighty Soul Removed?!

Post#87 » Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:00 pm

wargrimnir wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:58 pm
Uchoo wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:52 pm

Well again, Knights were not a high dps class, even with MS. There's was too much missing for them to be OP. Chosen are hardly affected by this change. Do I have to put up the numbers that each tank spec does in one of the BiS setups?

I could understand a knight rework with MS being removed, but this isn't a rework, taking out MS just makes them bad. Sure they still have strong roles as 2h utility and SnB but I really don't understand. Was the goal to kill the Knight DPS spec? If so, why Knight and not one of the strong DPS tanks?
Yes. The goal was to kill the Knight DPS spec. I don't like Knights and I think they're dumb.
Tragically, that's the viewpoint of a lot of people in the community right now. I know a few Knights who run MS and what kind of damage output they were capable of. I guess we need to understand the A, B and C of the staff's discussion to understand the point of the change.

I would even understand if you guys flatly said "We wanted to nerf the Knight spec because Knight is very strong in other areas." I don't agree with it but I understand the thought process.
"You're just mad because you're not on the list :^)" -RyanMakara

"They're gonna die if we kill them" - Klev on strategy

"(The strong aoe meta) decimated live population in its first year." - Llondo

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wargrimnir
Head Game Master
Posts: 6986
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Re: Mighty Soul Removed?!

Post#88 » Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:01 pm

Uchoo wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:00 pm
wargrimnir wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:58 pm
Uchoo wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:52 pm

Well again, Knights were not a high dps class, even with MS. There's was too much missing for them to be OP. Chosen are hardly affected by this change. Do I have to put up the numbers that each tank spec does in one of the BiS setups?

I could understand a knight rework with MS being removed, but this isn't a rework, taking out MS just makes them bad. Sure they still have strong roles as 2h utility and SnB but I really don't understand. Was the goal to kill the Knight DPS spec? If so, why Knight and not one of the strong DPS tanks?
Yes. The goal was to kill the Knight DPS spec. I don't like Knights and I think they're dumb.
Tragically, that's the viewpoint of a lot of people in the community right now. I know a few Knights who run MS and what kind of damage output they were capable of. I guess we need to understand the A, B and C of the staff's discussion to understand the point of the change.
If their viewpoint is legitimately that dumb, I don't think any explanation is going to be sufficient. We're just going to have to agree to mutual ignorance.
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[email protected] for exploits and cheaters.
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Tarantoga
Posts: 68

Re: Mighty Soul Removed?!

Post#89 » Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:08 pm

wargrimnir wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:01 pm
Uchoo wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:00 pm
wargrimnir wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:58 pm


Yes. The goal was to kill the Knight DPS spec. I don't like Knights and I think they're dumb.
Tragically, that's the viewpoint of a lot of people in the community right now. I know a few Knights who run MS and what kind of damage output they were capable of. I guess we need to understand the A, B and C of the staff's discussion to understand the point of the change.
If their viewpoint is legitimately that dumb, I don't think any explanation is going to be sufficient. We're just going to have to agree to mutual ignorance.
maybe give it a try :)

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Uchoo
Posts: 281

Re: Mighty Soul Removed?!

Post#90 » Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:09 pm

wargrimnir wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:01 pm
Uchoo wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:00 pm
wargrimnir wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:58 pm


Yes. The goal was to kill the Knight DPS spec. I don't like Knights and I think they're dumb.
Tragically, that's the viewpoint of a lot of people in the community right now. I know a few Knights who run MS and what kind of damage output they were capable of. I guess we need to understand the A, B and C of the staff's discussion to understand the point of the change.
If their viewpoint is legitimately that dumb, I don't think any explanation is going to be sufficient. We're just going to have to agree to mutual ignorance.
Of course there's going to be a lot of doom and gloom at the post. An explanation would indeed be sufficient and welcome. And I'll just say again, if I'm ignorant about how strong MS was, please let me know. I play with and against MS knights everday and it's never that scary. They simply didn't have the damage or even a lot of the utility that other 2H tanks still do.
"You're just mad because you're not on the list :^)" -RyanMakara

"They're gonna die if we kill them" - Klev on strategy

"(The strong aoe meta) decimated live population in its first year." - Llondo

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