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Mighty Soul Removed?!

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abezverkhiy
Posts: 165

Re: Mighty Soul Removed?!

Post#171 » Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:27 am

Reading this thread is like receiving 10 gold bags in a row
Valknutt WP, Lochdhu IB, Tamdhu SL, Glenturret ENG, Vanhelsen WH

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TreefAM
Posts: 449

Re: Mighty Soul Removed?!

Post#172 » Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:56 am

hammerhead wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:09 am
The logic of this man is a vivid example of why destruction loses forts. The only thing I do not understand is why there is no renown trainer in the fort and each of them does not require 10 gold for respec. This was firstly used to restrain inflation and secondly once and for all taught to go to the fort in their main spec.

ps. dream of having such m4 for my ib.
ps2 sorry for offtopic
And I'd love to have parry and crit buffs for my DP target instead of useless nonsense BGs have as st buffs, but you can't have it all.
It's true that BGs have an OP m4 which is a perfect funnel push tool, but I don't care if destro pugs get farmed in forts because they all go in as 2h "dps" lords. I only play in orvr, forts and even keep sieges are the worst part of the game.

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Uchoo
Posts: 281

Re: Mighty Soul Removed?!

Post#173 » Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:25 pm

carlos wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:25 am
This would be true if Rampage didn't last for 20s.

You know what's a lot worse than "crying" on the forums? People who post sheer and utter nonsense that has very little basis in reality.
Last edited by Uchoo on Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"You're just mad because you're not on the list :^)" -RyanMakara

"They're gonna die if we kill them" - Klev on strategy

"(The strong aoe meta) decimated live population in its first year." - Llondo

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Uchoo
Posts: 281

Re: Mighty Soul Removed?!

Post#174 » Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:30 pm

hammerhead wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:09 am
and nobody plays snb.
That's very, very untrue. There are far more Destro SnB tanks than there are 2h. The only required 2h you need is a BG. The vast majority of tanks in RvR are SnB, especially BO's and Chosen. However, Rampage and Pierce Defenses don't care about that avoidance.

As a sub 60 IQ Broadhead Spammer, pressuring or even killing a wall of destro tanks before we push is pretty easy. I don't care how much they spam Hold the Line. If I can't do it, the Rampage slayers will LUL
"You're just mad because you're not on the list :^)" -RyanMakara

"They're gonna die if we kill them" - Klev on strategy

"(The strong aoe meta) decimated live population in its first year." - Llondo

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Uchoo
Posts: 281

Re: Mighty Soul Removed?!

Post#175 » Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:51 pm

detrap wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:32 am


https://gyazo.com/32b96306653bb4c95ab397865c17f901



Having 600-700 Weaponskill, with the equivalent or more in strength, +6% armor pen with warlord, and considering PS ignores 25% armor, combine with armour debuffs...You will do significantly more damage. Ask any good dps IB, they just do it better.

The imaged you reference only shows a player with 250 weaponskill. A knight can get upwards of 40-50% armor penetration from weaponskill alone.
The image clearly shows how damage would be different up to 700 Weapon Skill. That's how graphs work, they show how data is different as it changes. I don't see how you think a Knight with 50% armor pen doing between 30 and 75% damage unmitigated from armor alone (not including Toughness) comes anywhere close to a Knight dealing 70 to 100% damage (excluding Toughness) on all damage. Again, you are strictly wrong.

How about you check ANY of the evidence we posted? How about you post some of your own? Knight damage was okay at best with MS. Knight damage was okay at best before Runefang was destroyed.

Do you need MORE evidence? Fine, here's my Black Orc in good gear, not BiS gear but good gear.

https://gyazo.com/3c270b9b2e93079fbf78fc5cbcf00065

2warlord/2sent/Sov. FO and Bloodlord Weapon, power tali, no event, no pot/lini

I strongly doubt that you are aware of what IB's are capable of doing, it's far greater than any other tank.

Edit: I have been given permission to post this. https://youtu.be/dNCD8wwYZe8 FO, Bloodlord Weapon. Sov and Ranked gear, rsc event, power tali, Inevitable Tempest.
"You're just mad because you're not on the list :^)" -RyanMakara

"They're gonna die if we kill them" - Klev on strategy

"(The strong aoe meta) decimated live population in its first year." - Llondo

Alucard2010
Posts: 49

Re: Mighty Soul Removed?!

Post#176 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:57 am

Uchoo wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:51 pm
Edit: I have been given permission to post this. https://youtu.be/dNCD8wwYZe8 FO, Bloodlord Weapon. Sov and Ranked gear, rsc event, power tali, Inevitable Tempest.
Wow dude, I have the exact SAME gear on my knight, literally 1/3 of the damage over that time period shown with the same tactics. Yikes man. Talk about physical dmg tank archetype being fulfilled. To all the IB naysayers earlier in this thread who obviously play IB, shame.

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zakgrin
Posts: 54

Re: Mighty Soul Removed?!

Post#177 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:57 am

Uchoo wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:51 pm
detrap wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:32 am


https://gyazo.com/32b96306653bb4c95ab397865c17f901



Having 600-700 Weaponskill, with the equivalent or more in strength, +6% armor pen with warlord, and considering PS ignores 25% armor, combine with armour debuffs...You will do significantly more damage. Ask any good dps IB, they just do it better.

The imaged you reference only shows a player with 250 weaponskill. A knight can get upwards of 40-50% armor penetration from weaponskill alone.
The image clearly shows how damage would be different up to 700 Weapon Skill. That's how graphs work, they show how data is different as it changes. I don't see how you think a Knight with 50% armor pen doing between 30 and 75% damage unmitigated from armor alone (not including Toughness) comes anywhere close to a Knight dealing 70 to 100% damage (excluding Toughness) on all damage. Again, you are strictly wrong.

How about you check ANY of the evidence we posted? How about you post some of your own? Knight damage was okay at best with MS. Knight damage was okay at best before Runefang was destroyed.

Do you need MORE evidence? Fine, here's my Black Orc in good gear, not BiS gear but good gear.

https://gyazo.com/3c270b9b2e93079fbf78fc5cbcf00065

2warlord/2sent/Sov. FO and Bloodlord Weapon, power tali, no event, no pot/lini

I strongly doubt that you are aware of what IB's are capable of doing, it's far greater than any other tank.

Edit: I have been given permission to post this. https://youtu.be/dNCD8wwYZe8 FO, Bloodlord Weapon. Sov and Ranked gear, rsc event, power tali, Inevitable Tempest.
I would like to preface this with the fact that I have not been able to play the game for several months so not completely aware of all the changes. That being said, I would be careful using dummies as your only test barometer for tank damage potential and I also think context is important. Dummies have 0 mitigation. IBs can certainly do good damage and the dummy numbers are impressive, but in practice you aren't going to see anywhere close to that. I'm speculating here, as I do not actually know Oathmeal's stats, but looking at what they are wearing (https://www.returnofreckoning.com/armor ... cter/32998), it is strength heavy gear which favors higher numbers against a target with no mitigation. If Oathmeal's WS is low then they probably aren't going to be hitting anything particularly hard (outside of the squishiest classes, and lowbies).

There are also a couple of other factors to consider and again speculating.
- Looks like they are running focused offense + blood wep which frankly is a good way to wipe your entire party in a more competitive situation. It just isn't practical for anything outside of smashing noobs, off tanking, or smacking champs in stage 2 of city.
- It appears they are running all of the damage modifiers possible, have high crit, and are basically in BiS for strength gear which is making the crits look extra poppy. +15% crit dmg from sov 4pc, +10% dmg from BL, +10% dmg likely from GM, up to another +5% from 4pc victorious, and lastly the +15% from focused offense. You give a BO the same gear and similar setup and you'll probably see similar numbers. They also may have specced all the way up the vengeance tree, which again wouldn't normally be practical.

If you look at more "practical damage" rather than dummy damage, IBs are realistically going to be far behind dps specced SM and Chosen, and will struggle to keep up with a BO in similar gear.
Zakgrin - rr8x Ironbreaker
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Uchoo
Posts: 281

Re: Mighty Soul Removed?!

Post#178 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:07 am

zakgrin wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:57 am
Thank you for specifying that you were speculating so I don't have to really say anything.

My Blorc vid I linked can achieve about 95% of the damage incease from gear that Oathmeal is, it won't ever achieve anywhere near his damage though. If you would like to post your numbers in your current gear on your IB on a dummy, feel free.

The nice thing about dummy tests is that the mitigation is static so have good numbers to compare. I made a spreadsheet that compares armor. As if double and triple armor debuffing aren't a thing anyways.

Here's 400 ws and double armor debuff vs 4k armor. https://gyazo.com/af82726b2fc7cd4cbccf7b7ba7d2c188

Post-edit to be less mean.
Last edited by Uchoo on Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
"You're just mad because you're not on the list :^)" -RyanMakara

"They're gonna die if we kill them" - Klev on strategy

"(The strong aoe meta) decimated live population in its first year." - Llondo

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Alucard2010
Posts: 49

Re: Mighty Soul Removed?!

Post#179 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:20 am

zakgrin wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:57 am
Uchoo wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:51 pm
detrap wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:32 am


https://gyazo.com/32b96306653bb4c95ab397865c17f901



Having 600-700 Weaponskill, with the equivalent or more in strength, +6% armor pen with warlord, and considering PS ignores 25% armor, combine with armour debuffs...You will do significantly more damage. Ask any good dps IB, they just do it better.

The imaged you reference only shows a player with 250 weaponskill. A knight can get upwards of 40-50% armor penetration from weaponskill alone.
The image clearly shows how damage would be different up to 700 Weapon Skill. That's how graphs work, they show how data is different as it changes. I don't see how you think a Knight with 50% armor pen doing between 30 and 75% damage unmitigated from armor alone (not including Toughness) comes anywhere close to a Knight dealing 70 to 100% damage (excluding Toughness) on all damage. Again, you are strictly wrong.

How about you check ANY of the evidence we posted? How about you post some of your own? Knight damage was okay at best with MS. Knight damage was okay at best before Runefang was destroyed.

Do you need MORE evidence? Fine, here's my Black Orc in good gear, not BiS gear but good gear.

https://gyazo.com/3c270b9b2e93079fbf78fc5cbcf00065

2warlord/2sent/Sov. FO and Bloodlord Weapon, power tali, no event, no pot/lini

I strongly doubt that you are aware of what IB's are capable of doing, it's far greater than any other tank.

Edit: I have been given permission to post this. https://youtu.be/dNCD8wwYZe8 FO, Bloodlord Weapon. Sov and Ranked gear, rsc event, power tali, Inevitable Tempest.
I would like to preface this with the fact that I have not been able to play the game for several months so not completely aware of all the changes. That being said, I would be careful using dummies as your only test barometer for tank damage potential and I also think context is important. Dummies have 0 mitigation. IBs can certainly do good damage and the dummy numbers are impressive, but in practice you aren't going to see anywhere close to that. I'm speculating here, as I do not actually know Oathmeal's stats, but looking at what they are wearing (https://www.returnofreckoning.com/armor ... cter/32998), it is strength heavy gear which favors higher numbers against a target with no mitigation. If Oathmeal's WS is low then they probably aren't going to be hitting anything particularly hard (outside of the squishiest classes, and lowbies).

There are also a couple of other factors to consider and again speculating.
- Looks like they are running focused offense + blood wep which frankly is a good way to wipe your entire party in a more competitive situation. It just isn't practical for anything outside of smashing noobs, off tanking, or smacking champs in stage 2 of city.
- It appears they are running all of the damage modifiers possible, have high crit, and are basically in BiS for strength gear which is making the crits look extra poppy. +15% crit dmg from sov 4pc, +10% dmg from BL, +10% dmg likely from GM, up to another +5% from 4pc victorious, and lastly the +15% from focused offense. You give a BO the same gear and similar setup and you'll probably see similar numbers. They also may have specced all the way up the vengeance tree, which again wouldn't normally be practical.

If you look at more "practical damage" rather than dummy damage, IBs are realistically going to be far behind dps specced SM and Chosen, and will struggle to keep up with a BO in similar gear.
Counter point - what if these were your stats with 185 melee power? How would you feel then to be dealing 1/3 the dmg with bloodlord 2h and FO? 2% chance to be crit and 770 toughness On runefang proc. Fully practical build if you ask me for the role you’re trying to fill which I’ve already discussed the purposes and use cases ad nauseam, so I won’t go into that. Dmg shots have already been posted higher up in the thread. Why should knight suffer far more than any other tank archetype

https://imgur.com/gallery/KSQMmtH

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zakgrin
Posts: 54

Re: Mighty Soul Removed?!

Post#180 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 4:57 am

Uchoo wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:07 am
zakgrin wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:57 am
Thank you for specifying that you were speculating so I don't have to really say anything.

My Blorc vid I linked can achieve about 95% of the damage incease from gear that Oathmeal is, it won't ever achieve anywhere near his damage though. Please people. Stop posting stupid things that you "feel" are correct. You just said that CHOSEN can do more damage than IB. You sir are next to Detrap in the 0 Credibility club.

The nice thing about dummy tests is that the mitigation is static so have good numbers to compare. I made a spreadsheet that compares armor. I don't need people to tell me to "be careful with dummy tests." I know this game better than you do dude. As if double and triple armor debuffing aren't a thing anyways.

Here's 400 ws and double armor debuff vs 4k armor. https://gyazo.com/af82726b2fc7cd4cbccf7b7ba7d2c188
Dummy tests are good for determining highs and lows. I'm totally fine with accepting that an IB may have the highest high of any other tank, but that doesn't mean it is going to translate to practical, or maybe a better word is consistent damage. Chosen certainly does not have higher highs than an IB, but if you were to put them both in the same scenario going against equally geared opponents, and just have the Chosen spam Ravage for the entirety of that instance, they are going to come out with bigger damage numbers on the scoresheet than the IB. The dummy test isn't going to account for that the same way it isn't going to account for a SM in this theoretical scenario. SM like Chosen will not have higher highs, but SM has far far far more consistent dps pressure overall because of spirit dmg. A well geared solid 2h IB in city for instance will literally struggle to keep up damage wise with a really good s/b SM (as will Knight).
Alucard2010 wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:20 am
zakgrin wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:57 am
Uchoo wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:51 pm


The image clearly shows how damage would be different up to 700 Weapon Skill. That's how graphs work, they show how data is different as it changes. I don't see how you think a Knight with 50% armor pen doing between 30 and 75% damage unmitigated from armor alone (not including Toughness) comes anywhere close to a Knight dealing 70 to 100% damage (excluding Toughness) on all damage. Again, you are strictly wrong.

How about you check ANY of the evidence we posted? How about you post some of your own? Knight damage was okay at best with MS. Knight damage was okay at best before Runefang was destroyed.

Do you need MORE evidence? Fine, here's my Black Orc in good gear, not BiS gear but good gear.

https://gyazo.com/3c270b9b2e93079fbf78fc5cbcf00065

2warlord/2sent/Sov. FO and Bloodlord Weapon, power tali, no event, no pot/lini

I strongly doubt that you are aware of what IB's are capable of doing, it's far greater than any other tank.

Edit: I have been given permission to post this. https://youtu.be/dNCD8wwYZe8 FO, Bloodlord Weapon. Sov and Ranked gear, rsc event, power tali, Inevitable Tempest.
I would like to preface this with the fact that I have not been able to play the game for several months so not completely aware of all the changes. That being said, I would be careful using dummies as your only test barometer for tank damage potential and I also think context is important. Dummies have 0 mitigation. IBs can certainly do good damage and the dummy numbers are impressive, but in practice you aren't going to see anywhere close to that. I'm speculating here, as I do not actually know Oathmeal's stats, but looking at what they are wearing (https://www.returnofreckoning.com/armor ... cter/32998), it is strength heavy gear which favors higher numbers against a target with no mitigation. If Oathmeal's WS is low then they probably aren't going to be hitting anything particularly hard (outside of the squishiest classes, and lowbies).

There are also a couple of other factors to consider and again speculating.
- Looks like they are running focused offense + blood wep which frankly is a good way to wipe your entire party in a more competitive situation. It just isn't practical for anything outside of smashing noobs, off tanking, or smacking champs in stage 2 of city.
- It appears they are running all of the damage modifiers possible, have high crit, and are basically in BiS for strength gear which is making the crits look extra poppy. +15% crit dmg from sov 4pc, +10% dmg from BL, +10% dmg likely from GM, up to another +5% from 4pc victorious, and lastly the +15% from focused offense. You give a BO the same gear and similar setup and you'll probably see similar numbers. They also may have specced all the way up the vengeance tree, which again wouldn't normally be practical.

If you look at more "practical damage" rather than dummy damage, IBs are realistically going to be far behind dps specced SM and Chosen, and will struggle to keep up with a BO in similar gear.
Counter point - what if these were your stats with 185 melee power? How would you feel then to be dealing 1/3 the dmg with bloodlord 2h and FO? 2% chance to be crit and 770 toughness On runefang proc. Fully practical build if you ask me for the role you’re trying to fill which I’ve already discussed the purposes and use cases ad nauseam, so I won’t go into that. Dmg shots have already been posted higher up in the thread. Why should knight suffer far more than any other tank archetype

https://imgur.com/gallery/KSQMmtH
I haven't read the whole thread and frankly I don't have time to. If you are in a competitive ranked 6v6 sc or tournament going up against equally geared players and you are running FO at all, you run the risk of wiping your entire party. I don't see much of a use for it especially in combination with the BL weapon outside of solo roaming, casual sc/RvR funzies, and off tanking in a dungeon. It isn't going to be the best use of a Knight or really any tank for that matter outside of just seeing bigger damage numbers for the fun of it. Priority number 1 will always be to soak up damage for your guard(s) (which things like FO and MS hinder), and one of priorities 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, etc. may be to put out as much additional dps as possible given the circumstance.

I would say suffering in this case is rather subjective haha. BGs and IBs would love to have even half the group utility Knight's are capable of, and thus suffer for different reasons. That being said, I'm all for Knights getting a damage buff, but I don't think Mighty Soul is really the fix that would be best for the class as a whole because it has limited uses similar to FO. It would be much more interesting and fun for instance, if a Knight could run this buffed dmg 2h build without fear of instantly melting such as in city (where it is useful to have at least 1 2h knight). I think it could be tackled a couple of different ways, either go back to the old runefang from a few years ago, change a few more "useful" (not the stagger...) abilities to elemental damage, or just outright buff the baseline damage of all or some of the abilities (which I think is a pretty easy fix and can be adjusted quickly if things go too high or aren't quite enough).
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