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Mighty Soul Removed?!

Knight of the Blazing Sun, Bright Wizard, Witch Hunter, Warrior Priest

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hammerhead
Posts: 244

Re: Mighty Soul Removed?!

Post#181 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 5:32 am

sweet Dreams..
Spoiler:
Image
..and hard reality

viewtopic.php?f=42&t=40325&p=432093#p432093

The next tests I propose to carry out on rats near the market square. It's as representative as it is fun.

Alucard2010 wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:57 am
Uchoo wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:51 pm
Edit: I have been given permission to post this. https://youtu.be/dNCD8wwYZe8 FO, Bloodlord Weapon. Sov and Ranked gear, rsc event, power tali, Inevitable Tempest.
Wow dude, I have the exact SAME gear on my knight, literally 1/3 of the damage over that time period shown with the same tactics. Yikes man. Talk about physical dmg tank archetype being fulfilled. To all the IB naysayers earlier in this thread who obviously play IB, shame.
We have nothing to be ashamed of. And you?
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detrap
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Re: Mighty Soul Removed?!

Post#182 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:49 am

Uchoo wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:51 pm
detrap wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:32 am


https://gyazo.com/32b96306653bb4c95ab397865c17f901



Having 600-700 Weaponskill, with the equivalent or more in strength, +6% armor pen with warlord, and considering PS ignores 25% armor, combine with armour debuffs...You will do significantly more damage. Ask any good dps IB, they just do it better.

The imaged you reference only shows a player with 250 weaponskill. A knight can get upwards of 40-50% armor penetration from weaponskill alone.
The image clearly shows how damage would be different up to 700 Weapon Skill. That's how graphs work, they show how data is different as it changes. I don't see how you think a Knight with 50% armor pen doing between 30 and 75% damage unmitigated from armor alone (not including Toughness) comes anywhere close to a Knight dealing 70 to 100% damage (excluding Toughness) on all damage. Again, you are strictly wrong.

How about you check ANY of the evidence we posted? How about you post some of your own? Knight damage was okay at best with MS. Knight damage was okay at best before Runefang was destroyed.

Do you need MORE evidence? Fine, here's my Black Orc in good gear, not BiS gear but good gear.

https://gyazo.com/3c270b9b2e93079fbf78fc5cbcf00065

2warlord/2sent/Sov. FO and Bloodlord Weapon, power tali, no event, no pot/lini

I strongly doubt that you are aware of what IB's are capable of doing, it's far greater than any other tank.

Edit: I have been given permission to post this. https://youtu.be/dNCD8wwYZe8 FO, Bloodlord Weapon. Sov and Ranked gear, rsc event, power tali, Inevitable Tempest.
I know what you are trying to explain. What it also shows is the less armour an opponent has, the worse armor pen will scale, the higher the armour the higher the penetration, however the damage will still be greater to a target with lower armour, considering what I also said that your strength will be of a similar number or higher. If you are only running high weapon skill then of course the table makes it look useless to stack. If you are only running high strength then that's where the crying about MS starts because you need weapon skill to compliment it. You also have to factor in critical hit damage also, which (as I'm aware of) is 30-55% increase of your base damage. Slightly bigger numbers still means bigger crits.

My knight with 1091 str and 409 ws hitting a 2h black orc

https://imgur.com/5VQN1E1

1061 str and 730 ws hitting the same 2h black orc

https://imgur.com/CHZgQys

Using EC also puts me at 800 toughness and 1k wounds with this demonstration build.

Some players want RF back to its original glory but back then it buffed weapon skill by 240 which doesn't "scale" well according to the graph. It also buffs initiative that's not needed if you run 3/4 FS unless you wanted a dodge buff.

Is this weapon skill table what you made? Would love a link to it...

Nice Black Orc damage numbers, however you won't get far getting the RoR team to buff a class if you're comparing classes 1v1.

But here's my damage on a target (that has obviously no mitigation), with dominator/invader/warlord with no strength talismans.

https://imgur.com/047dqOo

With sov and a better sword could easily do 1700 with a crit damage bonus.

But what is the big issue if IB's can do double the knight numbers on a single target with no mitigation? You do realise knights dps tree is completely different to other tanks in the game?

2h knights theoretically give everyone a permanent (same cooldown as BG's equivalent but double the duration as well as a wounds debuff) 10% crit on the targets around it, debuffing their defences from up to two abilities at the same time.

The IB/SM/BO does more single target damage, what the knight falls behind in makes up for by raising the ceiling damage of all the order around them. We are lowering the dps bar in premade warbands if there is no 2h knight in it, especially in bombing groups.

Other tanks have crit tactics for their own benefit, knights have similar tactics for the entire realm/warband/party to use and abuse.

I feel like the more knights cry foul play over their dps abilities without trying to understand the class, the more likely the gap will be brought closer by nerfing the other tanks damage capabilities. Mighty Soul wasn't even originally applied to any abilities outside the Path of Glory tree.
Last edited by detrap on Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
KotBS - WP T1 - Engie T1 - BW rr16

Alucard2010
Posts: 49

Re: Mighty Soul Removed?!

Post#183 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:25 am

hammerhead wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 5:32 am
sweet Dreams..
Spoiler:
Image
..and hard reality

viewtopic.php?f=42&t=40325&p=432093#p432093

The next tests I propose to carry out on rats near the market square. It's as representative as it is fun.

Alucard2010 wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:57 am
Uchoo wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 8:51 pm
Edit: I have been given permission to post this. https://youtu.be/dNCD8wwYZe8 FO, Bloodlord Weapon. Sov and Ranked gear, rsc event, power tali, Inevitable Tempest.
Wow dude, I have the exact SAME gear on my knight, literally 1/3 of the damage over that time period shown with the same tactics. Yikes man. Talk about physical dmg tank archetype being fulfilled. To all the IB naysayers earlier in this thread who obviously play IB, shame.
We have nothing to be ashamed of. And you?
Image

Ok, not sure what I’m looking at here. Your 250 str below the other IB w/ an unknown amount of melee power and not running bloodlord 2h I don’t think. Do you have a pot/lini on? Regardless, you still hit harder than a knight with 250 more strength 180 MP and bloodlord 2h.

Regarding your city screenshot, what was your spec in city? What auras was knight running? On your guard or AoA could easily pump up dmg #s for a knight, but it’s fluff. Not sure what point your trying to make posting a random city screenshot with no context.

Alucard2010
Posts: 49

Re: Mighty Soul Removed?!

Post#184 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:27 am

Mods - please remove, dupe post by mistake
Last edited by Alucard2010 on Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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hammerhead
Posts: 244

Re: Mighty Soul Removed?!

Post#185 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 12:48 pm

Alucard2010 wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:27 am
Spoiler:
Alucard2010 wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:25 am
hammerhead wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 5:32 am
sweet Dreams..
Spoiler:
Image
..and hard reality

viewtopic.php?f=42&t=40325&p=432093#p432093

The next tests I propose to carry out on rats near the market square. It's as representative as it is fun.




We have nothing to be ashamed of. And you?
Image

Ok, not sure what I’m looking at here. Your 250 str below the other IB w/ an unknown amount of melee power and not running bloodlord 2h I don’t think. Do you have a pot/lini on? Regardless, you still hit harder than any knight with 250 more strength 180 MP and bloodlord 2h, so your point here is moot.

Regarding your city screenshot, what was your spec in city? What auras was knight running? On your guard or AoA could easily pump up dmg #s for a knight, but it’s fluff. Not sure what point your trying to make posting a random city screenshot with no context.
I don't have a Bloodlord. I spent 6 gold on respec and put on 4 alt sov + 4 pc of warlord to show that even without investing a ton of time in BIS, all your charts are no more than a linear comparison of one of the previously avoided stat with a spherical vacuum.

I do not know in what build and how this knight is dressed, but I am quite sure that the build in which the test IB gave out "reference" damage is only suitable for ganking from behind a bush.

And the whole point of the topic is an attempt to return the opportunity to avoid investing in one of the stat, for completely far-fetched reasons.

In addition, Secrets has already given an explanation that this was a compromise caused by cutting the runefang (with I also disagree).
(\|)o0(|/)

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Detangler
Posts: 438

Re: Mighty Soul Removed?!

Post#186 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:50 pm

Seems the consensus for knight players is that MS was a niche build at best with some serious downsides that literally no one complained about being OP.

Great change devs.

From the Chosen side: Dev reasoning was that 2H Chosen did too much damage with this tactic.
Here is why their reasoning is so wrong it boggles the mind.

Discordant Winds was only somewhat usable, as the main damage abilities (Ravage, Touch of Palsy, Relentless w/ tactic) already did spirit damage. 2H chosen had no real reason to ever run DW as they already had better options for spirit damage and could safely ignore weaponskill. The other non-spirit based abilities were used for utility and not used in damage rotations. The spirit based damage abilities won't be missed by 2H chosens.

What did DW give?

Auto attack damage is spirit based - who is complaining about auto attack damage? Really?

Spirit based unblockable spam attack in Cleave. Yes, 2h Chosen could abuse this, but lose out on 15% crit. And you are harder to keep alive with the 20% heal debuff. Explain how this would this be useful in oRvR? Why are you attacking the tanks and not the squishies? Its been said many times that this game is not balanced around solo play.

Chosens will go right back to doing the exact same damage as before DW was removed, doing the exact same big damage numbers that were the "justification" for this change. Knights just got run over cause they were nearby.

Great change devs. Really well thought out.
Detangler - 40 DoK armor talisman farmer
Deetangler - 40/82 Chosen tankbot/murdermachine
Deeetangler - 40/6x Zealot healbot/talisman factory
Tanglers - baby Swordmaster
Other 40's w similar names.
On hiatus. ETA unknown

Sundowner
Posts: 122

Re: Mighty Soul Removed?!

Post#187 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:11 pm

Detangler wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:50 pm
Seems the consensus for knight players is that MS was a niche build at best with some serious downsides that literally no one complained about being OP.

Great change devs.

From the Chosen side: Dev reasoning was that 2H Chosen did too much damage with this tactic.
Here is why their reasoning is so wrong it boggles the mind.

Discordant Winds was only somewhat usable, as the main damage abilities (Ravage, Touch of Palsy, Relentless w/ tactic) already did spirit damage. 2H chosen had no real reason to ever run DW as they already had better options for spirit damage and could safely ignore weaponskill. The other non-spirit based abilities were used for utility and not used in damage rotations. The spirit based damage abilities won't be missed by 2H chosens.

What did DW give?

Auto attack damage is spirit based - who is complaining about auto attack damage? Really?

Spirit based unblockable spam attack in Cleave. Yes, 2h Chosen could abuse this, but lose out on 15% crit. And you are harder to keep alive with the 20% heal debuff. Explain how this would this be useful in oRvR? Why are you attacking the tanks and not the squishies? Its been said many times that this game is not balanced around solo play.

Chosens will go right back to doing the exact same damage as before DW was removed, doing the exact same big damage numbers that were the "justification" for this change. Knights just got run over cause they were nearby.

Great change devs. Really well thought out.
it has been stated many times that chosens were doing too much dmg when roaming solo/1v1/etc., wb balance was virtually not affected by this change. Yes, primary reason for most changes is oRVR/wb play balance, but this does not mean to leave solo op heroes as they are.

Yes, knight was no op and was affected only because chosen was nerfed, but if other tanks bring more dmg when solo roaming, knight still has more utility. Not every class is designed to be competitive solo roamer or do decent solo dmg, balance is made by trade-offs, between damage, utility, surviveability, mobility, etc.

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hammerhead
Posts: 244

Re: Mighty Soul Removed?!

Post#188 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:15 pm

Detangler wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:50 pm
Seems the consensus for knight players is that MS was a niche build at best with some serious downsides that literally no one complained about being OP.

Great change devs.

From the Chosen side: Dev reasoning was that 2H Chosen did too much damage with this tactic.
Here is why their reasoning is so wrong it boggles the mind.

Discordant Winds was only somewhat usable, as the main damage abilities (Ravage, Touch of Palsy, Relentless w/ tactic) already did spirit damage. 2H chosen had no real reason to ever run DW as they already had better options for spirit damage and could safely ignore weaponskill. The other non-spirit based abilities were used for utility and not used in damage rotations. The spirit based damage abilities won't be missed by 2H chosens.

What did DW give?

Auto attack damage is spirit based - who is complaining about auto attack damage? Really?

Spirit based unblockable spam attack in Cleave. Yes, 2h Chosen could abuse this, but lose out on 15% crit. And you are harder to keep alive with the 20% heal debuff. Explain how this would this be useful in oRvR? Why are you attacking the tanks and not the squishies? Its been said many times that this game is not balanced around solo play.

Chosens will go right back to doing the exact same damage as before DW was removed, doing the exact same big damage numbers that were the "justification" for this change. Knights just got run over cause they were nearby.

Great change devs. Really well thought out.
Was it me that attacked? Well, in general, I peacefully walked into the tavern and did not touch anyone.
You look from the warcamp, ​​and usually a squad of shamanans and the chosen. Everyone does not care how someone is having fun, but why break the logic of the game common to all, because of their not always healthy inclinations.

If serious. You can easily get 5K armor and 42% resists, ~ 50%+ 100%uptime parry (correct if I'm mistaken) and not deny yourself anything to have ST damage to the face at the level of a well dressed WE. Is everything okay? Confuses nothing?

And Secrets also said that removing these two tactics opened the way for the further development of classes. Stay tuned!
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Alucard2010
Posts: 49

Re: Mighty Soul Removed?!

Post#189 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:59 pm

hammerhead wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 12:48 pm
And the whole point of the topic is an attempt to return the opportunity to avoid investing in one of the stat, for completely far-fetched reasons.
I mean - I have shown that knights can damn near soft cap strength, have 650+ WS, and sell out using FO + BL 2H + Taunt on a dummy and still hit like a wet noodle. Screenshots of this are in uchoos post few pages back.

Yes, the thread topic 17 pages ago was a complaint about MS being removed, but honestly it's more than that as the thread has continued on. I just want knights to have a viable offensive build in-line of literally every other tank in the game IF the player chooses to spec for it (for whatever niche role he/she feels like doing). Now, whether that is through returning MS, increasing baseline dmg modifiers on abilities, returning runefang to its proper form, changing more abilities to ele dmg, adding new mechanics to abilities, or some combination of the above is all up to the dev team. This offensive build should come with some trade offs/cons as with any other tank as well - I'm not asking for knights to become god. We're trying to provide data and ideas to the team should they want to research further and if they are open to ideas.

For fun, here are some more screenshots of the myrmidons fury ability (our channel) hitting super wet noodle with a pretty dang good stat line (now, before you go all "No TaNkS ShOuLd RuN FO", I'm not suggesting tanks should run FO, bc it is a hot garbage tactic, but I wanted to illustrate just how BAD this dmg is even with it):

919 str, 555 WS, 186 Melee power, Bloodlord 5% dmg, Focused Offense 15%, 3 Piece Off Sov, 2 Piece Warlord, 2 Piece Victorious, 2 Piece Sentinel
Image
Image

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normanis
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Re: Mighty Soul Removed?!

Post#190 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 3:07 pm

what happened to mighty soul ( income more damage)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAc5Pr5 ... ovieQuotes

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