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[KOTBS] Myrmidia's Fury.

Knight of the Blazing Sun, Bright Wizard, Witch Hunter, Warrior Priest
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kmark101
Posts: 482

Re: [KOTBS] Myrmidia's Fury.

Post#51 » Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:29 pm

sharpblader wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:19 pm The intended endgame is warband play. You are talking about zergs.

Look there's not much correlation between class nemesis and class mechanics. Don't think too much about it because it's quite intermingled. For example, Chosens spirit damage attack and parry increase is mirrored by Swordmasters. Chosens dmg reduction ability is mirrored by Knights. Chosens damage on moving ability is mirrored by Ironbreakers. The careers are decently balanced (group play) the way they are but seems like you want 100% mirroring which as per the devs is not going to happen.

Now if you want to 1v1 other tanks, knights do a pretty good job. Unless there's a huge gear difference.


Except the chosen is hitting that spirit damage against 0 resistance targets (only toughness as mitigation) due to how the debuff synergises for spirit on destro. The SM is usually hitting those spirit damage against approx 400 spirit resistance targets, that's a hefty 25% difference. You have to be blind to ignore this. (Same for the "moving ability", the chosen's spirit damage hits for approx 35-40% MORE than the IB's physical damage ability, as we progress into the endgame more the difference is increasing... it's not huge, since the whole ability's damage is small, but still a hefty difference if we are talking about balance).

Defense wise both realm's tanks are balanced more or less, destro having the slight advantage of all their tanks can go to really hard to kill (BG selfbuff toughness and active defenses to maximum levels, just by standing there, same for chosen selfpump for morale defense), while order has the general higher mitigations without activating any ability. We all know those unkillable snb BG's fighting against 10+ people and not dying, same for that one snb Black Ork on the flag refuses to die while 8 order dps punding on him... you never see anything similar with order tanks, they go down under pressure much easier.
Gryyw - Ironbreaker

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sharpblader
Posts: 298

Re: [KOTBS] Myrmidia's Fury.

Post#52 » Wed Aug 25, 2021 1:44 am

Spoiler:
don775 wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 8:10 pm
sharpblader wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:19 pm
Spoiler:
don775 wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 2:52 pm


You are making the most valid points to my opinion, but I wonder if you can explain the similarities each career has with their nemesis, IB-BO, SM-BG, Chosen-Kotbs (for the sake of the argument) also share countering defenses/buffs/debuffs.. I really do because I think its vital to balance all careers properly.

I think the game can be fair matching 12 vs 12 (since some abilities are limited to 9 people) regardless of how meta is (broken) because lets admit it, wbs are practically xp/rr orgies.

More over I want to understand who gives a crap about warbands or how could it ever reflect pros/cons accurately to begin with?

The intended endgame is warband play. You are talking about zergs.

Look there's not much correlation between class nemesis and class mechanics. Don't think too much about it because it's quite intermingled. For example, Chosens spirit damage attack and parry increase is mirrored by Swordmasters. Chosens dmg reduction ability is mirrored by Knights. Chosens damage on moving ability is mirrored by Ironbreakers. The careers are decently balanced (group play) the way they are but seems like you want 100% mirroring which as per the devs is not going to happen.

Now if you want to 1v1 other tanks, knights do a pretty good job. Unless there's a huge gear difference.
I doubt balancing broken meta could fix it. more over the nemesis design is also taken into RvR originally so its there you just insist on considering the warband as the core endgame meta which doesnt make sense either because that means everyone theoretically gets to enjoy all the possible buffs from all given careers, hence the 12 v 12 comparison, any focus one object breaks the equation for the rest which makes even more sense to balance careers against each other.

Most Chosen builds are far more viable (and functioning) than any Kotbs builds meta or not and that is also the root of the problem.
Not really. Most buffs are limited to your own 6 man groups.

Balancing careers against each other takes us close to 100% mirroring, a direction which the project doesn't intend to go currently from what I understand.

Trust me when I say this, go play a chosen after playing knight and you'll realise why knights have it a little easier. As far as damage is concerned, chosens deal more but knights provide more utility. Ironically, because of this, 2h knights have an easier time finding an organized group compared to 2h Chosens.
Spoiler:
kmark101 wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:29 pm
sharpblader wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:19 pm The intended endgame is warband play. You are talking about zergs.

Look there's not much correlation between class nemesis and class mechanics. Don't think too much about it because it's quite intermingled. For example, Chosens spirit damage attack and parry increase is mirrored by Swordmasters. Chosens dmg reduction ability is mirrored by Knights. Chosens damage on moving ability is mirrored by Ironbreakers. The careers are decently balanced (group play) the way they are but seems like you want 100% mirroring which as per the devs is not going to happen.

Now if you want to 1v1 other tanks, knights do a pretty good job. Unless there's a huge gear difference.


Except the chosen is hitting that spirit damage against 0 resistance targets (only toughness as mitigation) due to how the debuff synergises for spirit on destro. The SM is usually hitting those spirit damage against approx 400 spirit resistance targets, that's a hefty 25% difference. You have to be blind to ignore this. (Same for the "moving ability", the chosen's spirit damage hits for approx 35-40% MORE than the IB's physical damage ability, as we progress into the endgame more the difference is increasing... it's not huge, since the whole ability's damage is small, but still a hefty difference if we are talking about balance).

Defense wise both realm's tanks are balanced more or less, destro having the slight advantage of all their tanks can go to really hard to kill (BG selfbuff toughness and active defenses to maximum levels, just by standing there, same for chosen selfpump for morale defense), while order has the general higher mitigations without activating any ability. We all know those unkillable snb BG's fighting against 10+ people and not dying, same for that one snb Black Ork on the flag refuses to die while 8 order dps punding on him... you never see anything similar with order tanks, they go down under pressure much easier.
In group play the physical and magical damage difference done by tanks is negligible.

In fact, if you look at city scoreboards highest tank damage is dominated by SMs, BGs and BOs. The latter two are primarily physical damage dealers. Fine, there are some outliers now and then so let's look at 6v6 ranked scoreboards. In a balanced game where a BG does 100k dmg, a BO will be close around the same, SM will be higher most of the times, Chosen will be around 58k, IBs around the same sometimes higher, and the Knight will be around 35k.

Despite knight being the weakest in dmg it is still a viable ranked career because of the utility. Personally, I would love to reach higher direct damage pressure with knight while sacrificing utility and reflect abilities, but I'm pretty sure that's not going to be possible both in terms of game design and community acceptance (where no doubt people will whisper you as to why you don't have 15% heal buff aura).

Having said that, physical vs magical damage difference is huge in solo roaming. Sadly, balance is not focussed here most of the time (looking at you dps AMs and Shamans)

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Tuxedo013
Posts: 48

Re: [KOTBS] Myrmidia's Fury.

Post#53 » Wed Aug 25, 2021 1:58 am

Make Myrmidia's Fury elemental dmg either by tactic or by default. As far as all above writen,make a separate topic to whine about balance/imbalance. Damn, we could vote for this?

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don775
Posts: 81

Re: [KOTBS] Myrmidia's Fury.

Post#54 » Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:50 am

sharpblader wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 1:44 am
Spoiler:
don775 wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 8:10 pm
sharpblader wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:19 pm
Spoiler:


The intended endgame is warband play. You are talking about zergs.

Look there's not much correlation between class nemesis and class mechanics. Don't think too much about it because it's quite intermingled. For example, Chosens spirit damage attack and parry increase is mirrored by Swordmasters. Chosens dmg reduction ability is mirrored by Knights. Chosens damage on moving ability is mirrored by Ironbreakers. The careers are decently balanced (group play) the way they are but seems like you want 100% mirroring which as per the devs is not going to happen.

Now if you want to 1v1 other tanks, knights do a pretty good job. Unless there's a huge gear difference.
I doubt balancing broken meta could fix it. more over the nemesis design is also taken into RvR originally so its there you just insist on considering the warband as the core endgame meta which doesnt make sense either because that means everyone theoretically gets to enjoy all the possible buffs from all given careers, hence the 12 v 12 comparison, any focus one object breaks the equation for the rest which makes even more sense to balance careers against each other.

Most Chosen builds are far more viable (and functioning) than any Kotbs builds meta or not and that is also the root of the problem.
Not really. Most buffs are limited to your own 6 man groups.

Balancing careers against each other takes us close to 100% mirroring, a direction which the project doesn't intend to go currently from what I understand.

Trust me when I say this, go play a chosen after playing knight and you'll realise why knights have it a little easier. As far as damage is concerned, chosens deal more but knights provide more utility. Ironically, because of this, 2h knights have an easier time finding an organized group compared to 2h Chosens.
Spoiler:
kmark101 wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:29 pm
sharpblader wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:19 pm The intended endgame is warband play. You are talking about zergs.

Look there's not much correlation between class nemesis and class mechanics. Don't think too much about it because it's quite intermingled. For example, Chosens spirit damage attack and parry increase is mirrored by Swordmasters. Chosens dmg reduction ability is mirrored by Knights. Chosens damage on moving ability is mirrored by Ironbreakers. The careers are decently balanced (group play) the way they are but seems like you want 100% mirroring which as per the devs is not going to happen.

Now if you want to 1v1 other tanks, knights do a pretty good job. Unless there's a huge gear difference.


Except the chosen is hitting that spirit damage against 0 resistance targets (only toughness as mitigation) due to how the debuff synergises for spirit on destro. The SM is usually hitting those spirit damage against approx 400 spirit resistance targets, that's a hefty 25% difference. You have to be blind to ignore this. (Same for the "moving ability", the chosen's spirit damage hits for approx 35-40% MORE than the IB's physical damage ability, as we progress into the endgame more the difference is increasing... it's not huge, since the whole ability's damage is small, but still a hefty difference if we are talking about balance).

Defense wise both realm's tanks are balanced more or less, destro having the slight advantage of all their tanks can go to really hard to kill (BG selfbuff toughness and active defenses to maximum levels, just by standing there, same for chosen selfpump for morale defense), while order has the general higher mitigations without activating any ability. We all know those unkillable snb BG's fighting against 10+ people and not dying, same for that one snb Black Ork on the flag refuses to die while 8 order dps punding on him... you never see anything similar with order tanks, they go down under pressure much easier.
In group play the physical and magical damage difference done by tanks is negligible.

In fact, if you look at city scoreboards highest tank damage is dominated by SMs, BGs and BOs. The latter two are primarily physical damage dealers. Fine, there are some outliers now and then so let's look at 6v6 ranked scoreboards. In a balanced game where a BG does 100k dmg, a BO will be close around the same, SM will be higher most of the times, Chosen will be around 58k, IBs around the same sometimes higher, and the Knight will be around 35k.

Despite knight being the weakest in dmg it is still a viable ranked career because of the utility. Personally, I would love to reach higher direct damage pressure with knight while sacrificing utility and reflect abilities, but I'm pretty sure that's not going to be possible both in terms of game design and community acceptance (where no doubt people will whisper you as to why you don't have 15% heal buff aura).

Having said that, physical vs magical damage difference is huge in solo roaming. Sadly, balance is not focussed here most of the time (looking at you dps AMs and Shamans)
I'm slow with forums so pardon me not breaking it down to quotes-

Regarding abilities limited to 9 - I'm refering to morale abilities (another Chosen advantage) anyhow, as well as debuffs affecting nearby enemies so theres that too and that is the already existing 'mirroring' of buffs as well, Destro always been on the debuffing side, including punts.


"where no doubt people will whisper you as to why you don't have 15% heal buff aura"

-Focused mending doesnt work, its a tactic that nobody can tell youre having either, and it sucks since only tanks can aquire and it gives roughly 5K-8K hp to allies in a full sc in the form of regain for a 15 minutes game plus costs one tree tactic which is even worse.


Kotbs cant focus on offense builds without taking a penalty that what used to be integrated but now made worse because kotbs narrowed down to tanks and for the sake of the topic - MF is a single target expensive ability that requires Bellow Commands to cut 15 AP/s dealing physical damage only so its worthless against melee and comes with significant expense for tanks.

BG, BO, Chosen are all by far ahead of kotbs on most specs because trying to conclude balance is never going to make sense as I mentioned, once the "meta" is already established upon changes that broke the correlation in the first place, and many broken features so it is not even relevant.

Yes, RvR, Counter defense, faction roles, all of that are mirrorer thats the beauty about this game.

Alucard2010
Posts: 91

Re: [KOTBS] Myrmidia's Fury.

Post#55 » Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:34 pm

I don't know why we are getting into realm balance and this vs that - spirit dmg here yada yada....the ability just flat out sucks. It hits like a noodle and drains AP for no gain - you're just better off spamming precision strike. It has been proven to the devs that it hits like a noodle by myself and others that have sent spreadsheet after spreadsheet of data in BIS gear, naked, utility gear, etc. We've proposed suggested changes to add extra flair ranging from a basic change like making it elemental dmg to more fun changes like having the damage scale over time on channel etc. Nothing is being done about it in over a years+ time.

Just delete thread, KOTBS will continue to get the butt end of the nerf bat every other patch like it has for 3+ years. Runefang reduced to a shell of itself AND put in a utility tree (it was core), Mighty Soul removal, Focused Mending AP regen Removal, 2h Vigilance removal, Myrm Fury Elemental dmg removal, Conq. internal proc increased, On Your Guard internal proc increased, and on and on. When is the last time knight actually got some love, I encourage someone to think really hard on this - and don't tell me the joke of a tactic that auto removes detaunt.

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don775
Posts: 81

Re: [KOTBS] Myrmidia's Fury.

Post#56 » Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:00 pm

Alucard2010 wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:34 pm I don't know why we are getting into realm balance and this vs that - spirit dmg here yada yada....the ability just flat out sucks. It hits like a noodle and drains AP for no gain - you're just better off spamming precision strike. It has been proven to the devs that it hits like a noodle by myself and others that have sent spreadsheet after spreadsheet of data in BIS gear, naked, utility gear, etc. We've proposed suggested changes to add extra flair ranging from a basic change like making it elemental dmg to more fun changes like having the damage scale over time on channel etc. Nothing is being done about it in over a years+ time.

Just delete thread, KOTBS will continue to get the butt end of the nerf bat every other patch like it has for 3+ years. Runefang reduced to a shell of itself AND put in a utility tree (it was core), Mighty Soul removal, Focused Mending AP regen Removal, 2h Vigilance removal, Myrm Fury Elemental dmg removal, Conq. internal proc increased, On Your Guard internal proc increased, and on and on. When is the last time knight actually got some love, I encourage someone to think really hard on this - and don't tell me the joke of a tactic that auto removes detaunt.
Let me clarify, I love Kotbs and never played destruction because I enjoy beating a stronger enemy more than my glorious flute. I think any change that displeases the community is mainly the reason player population shrinks, and the game will die.

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kmark101
Posts: 482

Re: [KOTBS] Myrmidia's Fury.

Post#57 » Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:32 pm

Alucard2010 wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:34 pm Just delete thread, KOTBS will continue to get the butt end of the nerf bat every other patch like it has for 3+ years. Runefang reduced to a shell of itself AND put in a utility tree (it was core), Mighty Soul removal, Focused Mending AP regen Removal, 2h Vigilance removal, Myrm Fury Elemental dmg removal, Conq. internal proc increased, On Your Guard internal proc increased, and on and on. When is the last time knight actually got some love, I encourage someone to think really hard on this - and don't tell me the joke of a tactic that auto removes detaunt.

Whoa now that you listed these nerfs after nerfs, did knights get anything in return? Any tweaks, buffs, anything? This list is brutal to see in one place :(
Gryyw - Ironbreaker

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zulnam
Posts: 760

Re: [KOTBS] Myrmidia's Fury.

Post#58 » Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:51 pm

don775 wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:35 am
zulnam wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 5:48 am
don775 wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:31 pm Anyways Chosen is the only one to be compared for Kotbs and they are doing much better with GW, while BO does better with Shields than Kotbs cant beat them, so there is a conparison to be made to Chosen to the very least since we can match BO to SM for their parries but its fair to compare BO to IB and SM to BG.
No. Look over the career builder abilities. The classes are not mirrored to their faction nemesis-race counterpart.

Kotbs has auras yes, same as Chosen, of course.
It also has aoe defense debuff, same as BG.
Aoe Crit debuff, same as BG.
Aoe wounds debuff, same as BG.
main attack ability that ignores 25% of armor, same as BG.

don775 wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:31 pm SnB
Chosen > Kotbs.
That is straight out delusional. What are you basing this on? Raw numbers? Man no one cares if a shield boi can beat another shield boi. No one has the time to look at that fight.

- Chosen has 3 auras, same as Knight.
- Knight also has Dirty Tricks, 5% crit reduction on block. Chosen has similar ability but it happens on crit; it is not a meta build for a serious warband, no SnB chosen specs crit. You sacrifice too much survivability.
- Knight also has passive 15% heal buff party wide. Chosen needs to use an aura to counter this. A knight is never in a situation where they need to use "Now's Our Chance!" to counter anything.
- Lastly Knight has Vigilance. 50% dmg reduction. It's basically a detaunt on a tank. Chosen counterpart has 15% dmg reduction and increases armor (not stackable with pots of course, we're all gentlemen here).

That's not to say chosen is a weak tank. The high parry, auras and morale tactic keeps them competitive in warbands, but to call them better SnB tanks than Knight means you're not paying attention to group play. No one in a party cares that chosen shield tank is doing spirit damage.

Vigilance requires a tactic(or two, you cant get any viable alternatives), Dirty tricks also requires a tactic, the same as focused mending they all need to be unlocked and that is also on the expense of other abilities and all of that for being able to meagerly support your team or just focus on selfish commands. not to mention most were nerfed or doesnt work - kotbs cant have them all, Chosen does(except auras)

Trying to force a meta is what broke the careers in the first place since every career has unique advantages to make up for the difference and it doesnt come freely as it does for Chosen, careers were made to counter each other and that balance is way off thats why theres a meta.
Vigilance doesn't require a... bruh, for real; were you high? XD

The Vigilence tactic I assume you are referring to (gotta specify these things, that's how balance discussions work) is Laureals of Victory. This nullifies the damage done debuff that you get when you use Vigilence while a SnB.

My dude... who cares what you hit as a SnB knight? Like, for real: why?
(incidently, Wargrimnir spoke in the last Q&A of useful tactics in the mastery tree: this is it. A tactic that nullifies the dps debuff on an ability that requires a shield.)

Yes, Dirty Tricks and Focused mending require a tactic, you are correct; but as you said, you can't get any viable alternatives. I misself like Runefang when i go 2H, and I know a lot of people here think it's sh!t (and on some level I agree with them, but i still like it. it's something (after they took mighty soul (MIGHTY SSSOOOOOOUULLLLL))).

Also, I am very curious to this thing you keep hinting at which, apparently, Chosen has. Since you say kotbs can't have it all but chosen... has it all (except auras)? Again, when you talk balance, i strongly recommend you open the career builder and talk specifics. Sometimes it even helps clear up any confussion there might be in the conversation.


If you believe that poorly thought out decissions will cause the player population to leave but also like to play a single faction exclusively maybe stop making proposals for decissions.
SW, Kotbs, IB, Slayer, WP, WL, SM, Mara, SH, BG

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don775
Posts: 81

Re: [KOTBS] Myrmidia's Fury.

Post#59 » Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:58 am

zulnam wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:51 pm
don775 wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:35 am
zulnam wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 5:48 am

No. Look over the career builder abilities. The classes are not mirrored to their faction nemesis-race counterpart.

Kotbs has auras yes, same as Chosen, of course.
It also has aoe defense debuff, same as BG.
Aoe Crit debuff, same as BG.
Aoe wounds debuff, same as BG.
main attack ability that ignores 25% of armor, same as BG.




That is straight out delusional. What are you basing this on? Raw numbers? Man no one cares if a shield boi can beat another shield boi. No one has the time to look at that fight.

- Chosen has 3 auras, same as Knight.
- Knight also has Dirty Tricks, 5% crit reduction on block. Chosen has similar ability but it happens on crit; it is not a meta build for a serious warband, no SnB chosen specs crit. You sacrifice too much survivability.
- Knight also has passive 15% heal buff party wide. Chosen needs to use an aura to counter this. A knight is never in a situation where they need to use "Now's Our Chance!" to counter anything.
- Lastly Knight has Vigilance. 50% dmg reduction. It's basically a detaunt on a tank. Chosen counterpart has 15% dmg reduction and increases armor (not stackable with pots of course, we're all gentlemen here).

That's not to say chosen is a weak tank. The high parry, auras and morale tactic keeps them competitive in warbands, but to call them better SnB tanks than Knight means you're not paying attention to group play. No one in a party cares that chosen shield tank is doing spirit damage.

Vigilance requires a tactic(or two, you cant get any viable alternatives), Dirty tricks also requires a tactic, the same as focused mending they all need to be unlocked and that is also on the expense of other abilities and all of that for being able to meagerly support your team or just focus on selfish commands. not to mention most were nerfed or doesnt work - kotbs cant have them all, Chosen does(except auras)

Trying to force a meta is what broke the careers in the first place since every career has unique advantages to make up for the difference and it doesnt come freely as it does for Chosen, careers were made to counter each other and that balance is way off thats why theres a meta.
Vigilance doesn't require a... bruh, for real; were you high? XD

The Vigilence tactic I assume you are referring to (gotta specify these things, that's how balance discussions work) is Laureals of Victory. This nullifies the damage done debuff that you get when you use Vigilence while a SnB.

My dude... who cares what you hit as a SnB knight? Like, for real: why?
(incidently, Wargrimnir spoke in the last Q&A of useful tactics in the mastery tree: this is it. A tactic that nullifies the dps debuff on an ability that requires a shield.)

Yes, Dirty Tricks and Focused mending require a tactic, you are correct; but as you said, you can't get any viable alternatives. I misself like Runefang when i go 2H, and I know a lot of people here think it's sh!t (and on some level I agree with them, but i still like it. it's something (after they took mighty soul (MIGHTY SSSOOOOOOUULLLLL))).

Also, I am very curious to this thing you keep hinting at which, apparently, Chosen has. Since you say kotbs can't have it all but chosen... has it all (except auras)? Again, when you talk balance, i strongly recommend you open the career builder and talk specifics. Sometimes it even helps clear up any confussion there might be in the conversation.


If you believe that poorly thought out decissions will cause the player population to leave but also like to play a single faction exclusively maybe stop making proposals for decissions.
Dont take it personally but these arguments is a waste our time. I'll conclude my opinion again.
1. MF is not viable and beats PS for 99% of kotbs.
2. Narrowing career roles ruined balance.
3. We are both biased.

Community is in a strong downtrend cause negative attitude towards feedback and mostly changes against the community opinion while neglecting more pressing matters (bugs!) reflected by the massive amount of xrealmers that also leave from other reasons as well (and are 'coping' with it better) - so the game will eventually just die.

Alucard2010
Posts: 91

Re: [KOTBS] Myrmidia's Fury.

Post#60 » Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:18 pm

kmark101 wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:32 pm
Alucard2010 wrote: Wed Aug 25, 2021 2:34 pm Just delete thread, KOTBS will continue to get the butt end of the nerf bat every other patch like it has for 3+ years. Runefang reduced to a shell of itself AND put in a utility tree (it was core), Mighty Soul removal, Focused Mending AP regen Removal, 2h Vigilance removal, Myrm Fury Elemental dmg removal, Conq. internal proc increased, On Your Guard internal proc increased, and on and on. When is the last time knight actually got some love, I encourage someone to think really hard on this - and don't tell me the joke of a tactic that auto removes detaunt.

Whoa now that you listed these nerfs after nerfs, did knights get anything in return? Any tweaks, buffs, anything? This list is brutal to see in one place :(
No. I guess if you want to count switching Runefang from ini/toughness to WS/toughness, but the ORIGINAL ability was core and was 240 each stat str/ws/ini/tough, now it is 160 ws/ini.

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