Countering destro raze

[Zealote]

Spoiler:

Imo the bigger problem is the retarded cc in this game. Spammable snares, rkd etc. Tanks essentially become reduced to walking speed permanently, unless you have rd. I think there is almost no tactics involved with cc in this game, at least when it comes to snares. The nerf to bo snare was a good step, but it effectively rendered it useless, since the same nerf was not applied on order, who have 100% uptime on kotbs aoe snare.

Well tanks need to have some drawback and one of their main weaknesses was always their poor mobility. And this is already offset to some extent anyway by flee + AP pot, QE, speccable speed procs. I'm just glad that SW/SH's ranged snare and self-punt snare don't stack here like they did on AoR

Ranged knockdowns aren't inherently bad imo, it's just the ease of getting and using them on Order that is an issue (even with Eye Shot being moved recently). Always seemed odd to me that a ~100ft on-demand KD was as powerful as a melee one.

[footpatrol2]

I personally think raze is kittens play compared to what you can do in this game. Especially given the correct morale gain rates and morale gain increaser's.

[Coma]

Spoiler:

Imo the bigger problem is the retarded cc in this game. Spammable snares, rkd etc. Tanks essentially become reduced to walking speed permanently, unless you have rd. I think there is almost no tactics involved with cc in this game, at least when it comes to snares. The nerf to bo snare was a good step, but it effectively rendered it useless, since the same nerf was not applied on order, who have 100% uptime on kotbs aoe snare.

Well tanks need to have some drawback and one of their main weaknesses was always their poor mobility. And this is already offset to some extent anyway by flee + AP pot, QE, speccable speed procs. I'm just glad that SW/SH's ranged snare and self-punt snare don't stack here like they did on AoR

Ranged knockdowns aren't inherently bad imo, it's just the ease of getting and using them on Order that is an issue (even with Eye Shot being moved recently). Always seemed odd to me that a ~100ft on-demand KD was as powerful as a melee one.

eye shot moved to top skirmish mastery has really changed nothing... 90% of SW (or at least 90% of sw that play ORvR) already went for 11 point in skirmish... and the only reason they didn't put more point in it was barrage being garbage (especialy iwht 1 second cast LA)... adding the 2 extra point was not really a problem for pratically any skirmish SW.

What surprise me is the really low number of BW using SDaR... yes you lose a bit burst damage without FP but an additional RKD IMHO is more than enough to counter the loss. :/

[dansari]

Yes, once BTC is gone, they're pretty much gone. When you're running through ~6 puddles against Run Away it's pretty tough. Don't know if that would change if someone like a pull engy specced for RD or not.. you might catch some shammies but the rest of your damage would be so far behind it probably wouldn't matter. Better to just let them kite instead of getting into an endless warcamp/postern door hump session.

Yes, most SWs spec full skirmish still. The assault changes were great and a solid step in the right direction, but assault brings nothing to rvr play and it's tougher to pull off in competent 6v6 (so I've heard). If the devs want to keep eye shot at 11pt, they'll need to make some changes to Scout to make it viable for warbands. Mobility is the meta. That's why LA+Expert Skirm and Flashfire are being used so often.

Edit: obviously I meant that if the devs want people not to spec full skirmish, they'll need to make Scout more viable for warbands.

[Arbich]

What surprise me is the really low number of BW using SDaR... yes you lose a bit burst damage without FP but an additional RKD IMHO is more than enough to counter the loss. :/

You give the answer yourself in your explanation about sw-kd. The 11points tactic in FBB-tree is good, while the 11point tactic in SDaR-tree is garbage. The recent changes about target debuff calculations slightly buff it (and indirectly nerfed SDaR), but it is still not worth a slot.

[footpatrol2]

Assault SW is a great fake in RvR. Your a mid/close range fighter. When Destro gets on a SW you think he's dead cause squish SW but you ain't cause you assault. The m4 for assault SW straight up justifies assault in RvR. Layer 2 or 3 outrider patrols on top of it and it gets nasty. Again dirty slow morale gain rates hurt and destroys spec lines. But you got AM with pump still.

SW Scout also imo is a great spec but situational. Situational spec's isn't horrible. It's just situational. It is only really good in a keep defense. We swap up spec's depending on the situation all the time.

[dansari]

Idk man why would you gimp your SW for a 1600 30ft m4? The only thing it would even be decently good for is for bombing tanks, since with LA you can dish enough damage on squishies in 2-3 shots that exceed 1600 damage. You would basically have to go full assault, since the only thing most SWs could pick up is assault m4 and heal debuff (with rr70 you can add PD). I just don't follow the logic.

[footpatrol2]

It is 2400 30 ft pbaoe m4. When you place spec points into the tree it raises the damage output. You still have LA due to baseline but it doesn't hit as hard as full skirmish so ya it's gimpy comparatively. 100% LA is strong but now you don't have unshakable focus and you have to deal with HTL which works which mean's more dodges = unreliable damage output.

Hard counter to LA/Shoot Thru YA is and always was HTL.

Instant AE morale damage is KING. It is literally the best thing in the game. 2400 30ft pbaoe m4 is one of the best m4's order has in a spec that can get tanky as hell. I personally think stabby spec as is, is completely fine in RvR due to bad gas/m4 stabby/and how tanky it can get. Granted, extremely dirty slow morale gain rates is a problem and imbalances the game/destroys spec lines/classes.

Current Meta Max health sits roughly at what? 6k 7k? You need a morale bomb of AE instant damage that exceeds this. Assault could be part of that if you want or not. Completely up to you on how you want to create your warband and how you want to incorporate your morale bombs. 2 Assaults and 1 outrider patrol can reach 6k instant AE morale damage. I only listed 3 player's...to create a morale bomb that can kill 9. You still have 21 player's in a warband...

[dansari]

Ah you're right. I forget tooltip damage fluctuates, even on some morales. I think the biggest counter is bringing your squishy SWs in range of the blob.. (not normally a factor when fighting your greenskin ball o death but you also gotta think about morale drains from Mara) unless you hit RD and whirling pin suicided into the backline. I agree that morales are king of damage, just not sure if SW Assault m4 is the way to do it especially since you're going up a tree that doesn't have any good aoe abilities.

[normanis]

why not make sword master and iron breaker also morale pumpers. byt with parry not block
+200 morale each time u parry every 3 sec. '-). or make sw and engi morale leechers( because anyway order is ranged biased) problem solved and i still waiting pet for shadow warrior. i hope christmass its will be